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Imperial weapons permits

Spartan159

SOC-13
Knight
Imperial weapons permits. Do they exist? What do they allow or prevent? How hard are they to acquire? Has anyone ever developed a cost/law level chart for something of this nature? I am aware of the rules in MgT's Central Supply Catalog but I'm not sure how to integrate it into MTU. I want both general information on how others handle this, and specifically the permitting process for an adventurers' ship's locker. For that matter do you require civilian ships to have permits for turret mounted weapons and if so what are the difficulties and costs attached? The questions are not universe specific, feel free to throw in YTU responses.
 
IMTU, they're a warrant issued by the Archdukes.
Further, IMTU, every nobleman is allowed to retain a firearm where only blades are legal, and a blade where no weapons are permitted, save for appearances in the courts of law.
 
Local law level means there is no such thing.

Within Imperial jurisdiction an Imperial weapon permit may be worth something, but once you are subject to planetary law their rules apply.
 
Local law level means there is no such thing.

Within Imperial jurisdiction an Imperial weapon permit may be worth something, but once you are subject to planetary law their rules apply.

Yeah, the concept of the Starport Authority results in there being an area of each world that is subject to Imperial law, but the Imperium cannot really control the law beyond it (hence, amber zones and red zones for particularly tyrannical worlds).
 
Local law level means there is no such thing.

Within Imperial jurisdiction an Imperial weapon permit may be worth something, but once you are subject to planetary law their rules apply.

Except that notation is made in one of the adventures that Imperial Nobles are generally exempted from local law level restrictions...
 
Local law level means there is no such thing.

Within Imperial jurisdiction an Imperial weapon permit may be worth something, but once you are subject to planetary law their rules apply.

While I agre with this at large, I also expect to be some Imperial agents and representative expempt from those restrictions. Of course, this will seldom affect players, unless you play the adventures of such an Imperial force group...
 
While I agre with this at large, I also expect to be some Imperial agents and representative expempt from those restrictions. Of course, this will seldom affect players, unless you play the adventures of such an Imperial force group...
Planetary law trumps Imperial - if a local world has very strict gun control laws than Imperial agents will be bound by them.

Unless the Imperium insists on some article of membership that allows Imperial agents or nobles the right to bear arms - but that just makes it even more yanks in space.

European police are not allowed to carry firearms in the UK for example.
 
For that matter do you require civilian ships to have permits for turret mounted weapons and if so what are the difficulties and costs attached? The questions are not universe specific, feel free to throw in YTU responses.


OTU: This part of the question is easily answered. Space (within the Imperium) is the law domain of the Empire as are all associated starports (high and low ports inclusive). A ship should not be outside of said areas when within the Imperium. So planetary law does not apply. So free starship, non weapons of mass destruction for all!

Outside of Imperial space local and stellar polity laws apply- ie: if in Aslan space Aslan rules.

Where the law gets interesting... firing a starship weapon from orbit or a port facility at a place on the planet not imperial property.
Does this violate Imperial law? I suspect that you violate Imperial safety regulations for a port by doing so but what about the planet? A from space outside a port.
Ortillery restricted?
 
I don't think the Imperium is particularly interested in regulating weapons, with the exception of shipboard nuclear missiles and a few other weapons (FGMP?) that the Imperium would like to reserve for its own military forces.
I suppose there could be some way of getting a permit for such things but my take is there would be no bureaucratic procedure under which you could apply. Instead it would be a form of warrant, issued when it suits the Imperium.

"Ordinary" weapons are simply beneath the Imperium's notice, because they get used planetside.

A couple of things pique my interest here, because I spend too much time worrying what Imperial law actually looks like. This gets rapidly into IMTU of course.

Planetary law trumps Imperial ...

While I agree that planetary law is what matters wrt weapons laws, it doesn't trump Imperial law. The Warrant of Restoration holds that Imperial law trumps planetary law (Article I).

But planetary law usually rules simply because the Imperium doesn't care what happens on planets as long as the taxes flow. It's beneath the Emperor's notice. So there are no Imperial weapons laws that might trump a planetary law ... except that you can't just go to a law 0 world and buy an FGMP-15 and some nukes for your Free Trader.

In my view it's less "Yanks in space" than "essentially medieval polity sans even Magna Carta in space." It's a deeply flawed model, but that's what provides the scope for adventure.

Except that notation is made in one of the adventures that Imperial Nobles are generally exempted from local law level restrictions...

Interesting, I hadn't found that one. IMTU I have a thing called "Imperial privilege" which essentially gives to any Imperial noble (or person designated by warrant) the equivalent of diplomatic immunity on all worlds: planetary laws do not apply to them. This freedom is restrained in practice by a kind of noblesse oblige: nobles are obligated to behave like nobles and to respect the diplomatic relationship between worlds and empire. Junior nobles who forget this principle may find themselves in hot water: high nobles would prefer that relations with world governments not deteriorate to the point at which they might have to use their naval power to remind everyone who is in charge. It's embarrassing when you have to nuke your subjects.

This conflicts with something in the Library Data supplements, which hold that the law applies to nobles, too. I take that to mean that the Emperor's laws apply to nobles ... something that only higher ranking nobles can really enforce.
 
Where the law gets interesting... firing a starship weapon from orbit or a port facility at a place on the planet not imperial property.
Does this violate Imperial law?

I would say yes, as the Imperium was founded to control things like this. Not to face external threats like the Zhodani, but to make space safe for trade. Doing violence in space is the sole prerogative of the Emperor and his henchmen, er, nobles ... everything else is a form of piracy.
 
Planetary law trumps Imperial - if a local world has very strict gun control laws than Imperial agents will be bound by them.

Unless the Imperium insists on some article of membership that allows Imperial agents or nobles the right to bear arms - but that just makes it even more yanks in space.

European police are not allowed to carry firearms in the UK for example.

As a Yank who would love to go in space I feel oddly constrained for some reason :)

Does the EU have swat teams just out of curiosity? I would imagine they have some kind of response force, or does it become a military matter?

In the OTU Dulinor had a right to bear arms so to me the precedent is there. However I seem to recall there was a special circumstance applied. I'll have to reread yet again. I've heard that constantly reading traveller materiel causes grognardiness though. :coffeesip:
 
I would say yes, as the Imperium was founded to control things like this. Not to face external threats like the Zhodani, but to make space safe for trade. Doing violence in space is the sole prerogative of the Emperor and his henchmen, er, nobles ... everything else is a form of piracy.

What about self defense? IMTU there are pirates, and vargr :smirk: for that matter. I would have to agree about the firing of a weapon from the starport, unless there is a raid going on in which case all bets are off and then the SPA might IMO overlook such in the name of assisting in it's defense.
 
Planetary law trumps Imperial - if a local world has very strict gun control laws than Imperial agents will be bound by them.

Unless the Imperium insists on some article of membership that allows Imperial agents or nobles the right to bear arms - but that just makes it even more yanks in space.

Do you really believe that MoJ agents (or INI, or IISS Intelligence, or any other Imperial branch, for what's worth) is in risk of being arrested for illegal weapon possesion in any Imperial world?

Frankly, I don't. I believe that Imperium will make all members accept them as superior pólice and allow them to bear weapons (within reason, not FGMP) in their jurisdictional territory (and in most cases, to help them in their missions).

One of the limitations I find to support my view here, though, is that MoJ is told about in various Traveller adventures and suplements, but, AFAIK, never fuly described, nor its exact attributions and missions fully described.

European police are not allowed to carry firearms in the UK for example.

AFAIK it does not exist an European police as such (Europol, like Interpol is just a way to share information), so I see no parallelism here (few countries, if any, allows other counties' police to bear weapons on their territories).

FBI in US states would be (IMHO) a better equivalent (though that may make me accused to use the Americans in Space approach, but other Federal countries I know about have not so diverging laws about weapons), and I guess (as always, my knowledge about US laws is only what I have seen in filsm or TV serials) their agents don't need state weapons licences in the states where one is required.
 
What about self defense?

Sticking with my idea that Imperial law is essentially medieval, I borrow the idea of justification as it existed in medieval England.

In short, if you fire on a ship that is clearly outside the law -- a known pirate, for example -- then justification applies. This would also cover assisting in the defence of a starport, etc.

But in a situation where there is no clear aggressor (and computer logs will come into play here), you're for the high jump. With luck, you may avoid the death penalty but forfeit your ship.

IMTU the Imperium cares not one whit for your life, and has no concept of human rights ... it cares only that trade proceeds and nothing interrupts the flow of money to the Imperial nobility. So you can have your triple beam laser turret but there are serious consequences should you ever use it.
 
Yes, if the local world has a prohibition against guns then even MoJ agents must check theirs in at the starport.

The Imperium doesn't rule the worlds remember.

There can not be an Imperial right to bear arms or local law level wouldn't be able to over rule it.

The fact that local law level can enforce no guns means that there can not be an Imperium wide right/permit for a citizen to carry guns.

I do not believe the Imperium has a police force to enforce laws on member worlds, member worlds set heir own laws and enforce them.

There would be an Imperium wide law level if the Imperium determined such things.

That said:
In the universe of GDW, sector and
Imperial police agencies are investigative
in nature, and serve mainly to coordinate
local efforts and serve as
a central repository of records. Most
violations of Imperial law are handled
through local organizations, with occasional
help from the Imperials where it is
needed. The lmperium also depends
upon local police forces to maintain
order, except in emergencies (when
martial law is declared, and the military
takes over).
Players designing their own universes
may wish to create an interstellar patrol,
or similar body.
This is from LKW's article in JTAS.
 
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The Imperium MUST be able to maintain order and use force, so there is an absolute right for Imperial military units, line units or subsector forces to bear a full set of arms, and the legal forces of a planet are invited to lodge a complaint afterwards.

Law level is a bit wobbly concept in some cases when we get to the world of the Mercenary.

A merc force that imported weapons onto the planet likely did so against somebody's rules or the agreed-upon law level of the planet, and whether they are considered criminals or not will likely hinge on whether their side wins.

But with the convention of the Repatriation Bond, the mercs who lose get a ticket off the planet with no immediate repercussions (I imagine some overactive victorious governments issue sentences in absentia, good luck enforcing it and ever get any mercs to work for that government ever again).

S
o right there we have an example of using weapons 'illegally' but due to an overall desire to end hostilities/induce surrender fast once a little war is largely decided, we have a convention where planetary law is largely flouted in the interest of a larger goal. Perhaps not an Imperial law, definitely not a warrant, but one of those unwritten customs that is 'good enough for Imperial government work'.

An interesting question is, does the Imperium have absolute right of extradition, and do planets have right of extradition or have to have treaties between them to extradite?

In the former, if so I could see an Imperial Warrant for the functional equivalent of US Marshalls being armed to the level of local LE or the target to apprehend and transport the wanted personage(s). I would probably rule that the Warrant only covers specifically capturing those people, not a blanket coverage to carry at will nor for investigative agents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marshals_Service

In many cases someone bad enough to merit an Imperial Warrant is likely armed, organized and/or intimidated/bribed the locals past the ability to deal with them so the local LE will likely be happy in those cases to turn over the problem to the Imps.

In the latter case, since planets have such wildly different governments and laws, I have to think that extradition treaties are necessary and would have to deal with armament of detaining/investigating agents as a matter of treaty law.

No treaty, then any armed agents have to deal with the law level like any other citizen, if caught likely deported and labelled persona non grata as a 'courtesy' assuming they didn't shoot up the place, charges pending and a diplomatic row if they did.

Now the interesting question is, if a planet has an extradition warrant/bounty out for someone's arrest and the subject is caught up to in Imperial space, what rules apply?

I should think the treaties of planetary membership would stipulate that the planetary warrants are serve-able in Imperial space, using whatever weapons are not proscribed, that the agents serving are liable to Imperial law while doing so, and that any damages incurred as part of serving the warrant are the liability of the issuing planet.

And what of the bounty hunter? I would say that there are 'officer bounties' and 'free agent bounties'.

The former are where the bounty hunter is sworn in as a deputized law officer for just that bounty and are treated by the rules as being a planetary law officer including following the rules and planet pays damages, and the latter as 'get it done any way you like, don't get caught/we don't want to know', free agent pays own liabilities.

The officer bounties should pay a lot less then the free agent bounties.
 
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Yes, if the local world has a prohibition against guns then even MoJ agents must check theirs in at the starport.

The Imperium doesn't rule the worlds remember.

There can not be an Imperial right to bear arms or local law level wouldn't be able to over rule it.

The fact that local law level can enforce no guns means that there can not be an Imperium wide right/permit for a citizen to carry guns.

I do not believe the Imperium has a police force to enforce laws on member worlds, member worlds set heir own laws and enforce them.

There would be an Imperium wide law level if the Imperium determined such things.

That said:
In the universe of GDW, sector and
Imperial police agencies are investigative
in nature, and serve mainly to coordinate
local efforts and serve as
a central repository of records. Most
violations of Imperial law are handled
through local organizations, with occasional
help from the Imperials where it is
needed. The lmperium also depends
upon local police forces to maintain
order, except in emergencies (when
martial law is declared, and the military
takes over).
Players designing their own universes
may wish to create an interstellar patrol,
or similar body.

This is from LKW's article in JTAS.

So, according to this, can a high justice (so Imperial law) fugitive take refuge in an Imperial planet wihtout fear of being taken by Imperial MoJ officers?

Must the Imperium in such a case ask for its extradition?

I guess not, and such a (presumed) criminal can be taken by the MoJ1 agents even without the colaboration of the local LE forces, and the MoJ agents in this case can have the force (and so weapons) to perform their mission, with immunity against local laws for it. While this may not be a real weapons license, its quite close to it...

Note 1: I talk about MoJ agents, but any such Imperial agency (INI, IISS, etc.)may also fill into this reasoning
 
Planetary law trumps Imperial - if a local world has very strict gun control laws than Imperial agents will be bound by them.

Unless the Imperium insists on some article of membership that allows Imperial agents or nobles the right to bear arms - but that just makes it even more yanks in space.

European police are not allowed to carry firearms in the UK for example.

The 3I is not the EU.

Law and justice exist on three levels within the Imperium.
1. The low justice of planetary and local authorities that governs everything from homicide to spitting on the sidewalk.
2. The middle justice of the subsectors that is intended to protect relatively helpless societies on low technology worlds and to protect all societies from excessive damage by military actions.
This is enforced by the police and military forces of the subsector duke, aided (if necessary) by lmperial military and naval forces.
3. The high justice of the Imperium, intended to prevent revolt against Imperial authority, to keep the peace
among member worlds, subsectors, and sectors; uphold the rights of sentient beings; and preserve commerce between worlds, subsectors and sectors. High justice is enforced by the lmperial Navy, Army and Marines, often assisted by the Security Branch of the Operations Office of the IISS.
JTAS 14, p. 19 "High Justice"

Major crimes can be combated by all three levels of law enforcement, and prosecuted by all three levels of court. Violators are sometimes subject to capital punishment.
ibid., p. 20

Note that if the subsector court can try you for murder in addition to local law, that certainly means local law doesn't trump it.
 
Planetary law trumps Imperial - if a local world has very strict gun control laws than Imperial agents will be bound by them.

Unless the Imperium insists on some article of membership that allows Imperial agents or nobles the right to bear arms - but that just makes it even more yanks in space.

European police are not allowed to carry firearms in the UK for example.

Sorry Mike, Planetary Law does not trump Imperial Law, at least NOT in the OTU.

"Law and justice exist on three levels within the Imperium.
1. The low justice of planetary and local authorities that governs everything from homicide to spitting on the sidewalk.
2. The middle justice of the subsectors that is intended to protect relatively helpless societies on low technology worlds and to protect all societies from excessive damage by military actions.
This is enforced by the police and military forces of the subsector duke, aided (if necessary) by lmperial military and naval forces.
3. The high justice of the Imperium, intended to prevent revolt against Imperial authority, to keep the peace
among member worlds, subsectors, and sectors; uphold the rights of sentient beings; and preserve commerce between worlds, subsectors and sectors. High justice is enforced by the lmperial Navy, Army and Marines, often assisted by the Security Branch of the Operations Office of the IISS."

JTAS 14, page 19 "High Justice"

Also:

"Major crimes can be combated by all three levels of law enforcement, and prosecuted by all three levels of court.
Violators are sometimes subject to capital punishment."

ibid., p 20

Simply put, the 3i is neither the US nor the EU, nor are they good comparisons to the 3I.

~Cryton
 
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