Imperial weapons permits

[Cryton]

Also, as Welsh pointed out (Bold is mine to high-lite the passage in question) :

Article I - Imperial Governance, Membership, Citizenship

The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the Defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law.

Any world may, through a recognized Representative, proclaim allegiance to the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall become a Member of the Imperium, equal in status to all other members of the Imperium. Member worlds shall govern themselves as they see proper, provided that such government does not violate Imperial laws.

The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit Governmental Entities superior to the member worlds but subordinate to the Imperium. This shall include the power to abolish said entities as the Imperium sees fit.

The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit Bureaus and Agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial will. This shall include the power to abolish said bureaus and agencies as the Imperium sees fit.

The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a Citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world.

~Cryton

 

[kilemall]

Cryton and Aramis that's all lovely, but doesn't answer whether there is such a thing as Imperial Warrant for carry at will.

Perhaps leans the question more towards 'maybe' then Mike has it, but not clear yes or no.

I can definitely see the Imperium being more Federation then Confederation re: the high justice part, but I would still lean towards the Imperium not wanting to 'stir the pot' except at need.

 

[McPerth]

And where in all those levels of justice enters the MoJ and its agents?

As said before, it is told about in several supplements and adventures, but never (at least AFAIK) described, not its functions and attributions specified.

 

[aramis]

Well, the Edict 97 Warrant explicity requires everyone to "render all assistance" to the bearer, and even, as per Agent of the Imperium, allows summary executions, and insulates them from local repercussions. It's like swatting flies with a nuke, but the 3I does that.

 

[Spartan159]

So as an upcoming example, escaping from Pysadi with a pack of anolas would be a violation of (Pysadi) Low justice as long as no one was murdered, in which case High justice would be invoked?

 

[Cryton]

Cryton and Aramis that's all lovely, but doesn't answer whether there is such a thing as Imperial Warrant for carry at will.

Perhaps leans the question more towards 'maybe' then Mike has it, but not clear yes or no.

I can definitely see the Imperium being more Federation then Confederation re: the high justice part, but I would still lean towards the Imperium not wanting to 'stir the pot' except at need.

Aside from Edict 97, or where Imperial Law (and it's enforcers feeling the need to carry) taking precedent over Local Law, None that I know of.

And where in all those levels of justice enters the MoJ and its agents?

As said before, it is told about in several supplements and adventures, but never (at least AFAIK) described, not its functions and attributions specified.

As far as I know, the MOJ is primarily concerned with Middle Justice (Check out JTAS 14). Should the MOJ agents run across a High Justice case, one would expect a visit from a Edict 97 Agent.

~Cryton

 

[Timerover51]

In the novel that I am working on, set sort of in the OTU, the main character is a mercenary making connections with the hiring patron in the starport on Vilis. He is carrying a weapons permit, issued by the Starport Authority bonded by Lloyds of Spinward, Vilis Branch. The Starport Authority maintains the local law level governing weapons in the Starport. The bond from Lloyds indicates that this person is a bonded mercenary, and is allowed to carry concealed personal weapons and have in his possession non-energy weapons of a specifically military nature.

Weapons permits for planets are issued by the planetary government, based on the local Law Level.

Now, in My Heretical Traveller Universe, ship weaponry is under the authority of the planet where the ship is being built, with either the local Navy or Scouts having to approve the mounting of weapons. Note, there is a Scout Base at every A and B class starport. Some planets may be shipowners a subsidy for providing for weapon mounts in the design without actually installing the, to suit the ship as a auxiliary in wartime. That does mean that the ship is subjected to being called into service in an emergency. Outside of the much smaller Imperiums in my Universe, permits are under the control of the local government where the character is. Starports are under the control of the local government, with no extraterritorial rights. The open wearing of Battle Dress or carrying of energy weapons is pretty much universally frowned on, and will very likely get the character incarcerated for an extended time, if not killed outright. On certain planets, it is assumed that all citizens are armed and no permits for personal weapons are needed.

 

[Cryton]

So as an upcoming example, escaping from Pysadi with a pack of anolas would be a violation of (Pysadi) Low justice as long as no one was murdered, in which case High justice would be invoked?

Heh, I would say "Yep". Don't go on killing sprees and expect that fleeing offworld will save you. Murder is a High Justice crime. The world in question will turn over the evidence, and you will find yourself extradited back for punishment. As for stealing the Anolas without killing anyone....Well, I would suggest never returning to Pysadi at that point.

~Cryton

 

[welsh]

Cryton and Aramis that's all lovely, but doesn't answer whether there is such a thing as Imperial Warrant for carry at will.

I think it does. The only power to create Imperial law rests with the Emperor, and Imperial law -- the Emperor's whim, even -- overrides planetary law. So the Imperium clearly has the power to authorize a person to carry a weapon in spite of any planetary law.

The real question is, how often is this power exercised? I would suggest rarely. Better to have the locals deal with things and be diplomatic than to continually remind worlds of their lopsided relationship to a hereditary aristocracy.

I can definitely see the Imperium being more Federation then Confederation re: the high justice part, but I would still lean towards the Imperium not wanting to 'stir the pot' except at need.

Exactly re stirring the pot, but it's really neither confederation nor federation. Worlds have no say in Imperial affairs, in a legal or constitutional sense. The Imperium has the power to simply take a pen and cross out whatever rights or privileges worlds have been granted. See Article VIII of the Warrant of Restoration.

 

[Cryton]

In the novel that I am working on, set sort of in the OTU, the main character is a mercenary making connections with the hiring patron in the starport on Vilis. He is carrying a weapons permit, issued by the Starport Authority bonded by Lloyds of Spinward, Vilis Branch. The Starport Authority maintains the local law level governing weapons in the Starport. The bond from Lloyds indicates that this person is a bonded mercenary, and is allowed to carry concealed personal weapons and have in his possession non-energy weapons of a specifically military nature.

Weapons permits for planets are issued by the planetary government, based on the local Law Level.

Now, in My Heretical Traveller Universe, ship weaponry is under the authority of the planet where the ship is being built, with either the local Navy or Scouts having to approve the mounting of weapons. Note, there is a Scout Base at every A and B class starport. Some planets may be shipowners a subsidy for providing for weapon mounts in the design without actually installing the, to suit the ship as a auxiliary in wartime. That does mean that the ship is subjected to being called into service in an emergency. Outside of the much smaller Imperiums in my Universe, permits are under the control of the local government where the character is. Starports are under the control of the local government, with no extraterritorial rights. The open wearing of Battle Dress or carrying of energy weapons is pretty much universally frowned on, and will very likely get the character incarcerated for an extended time, if not killed outright. On certain planets, it is assumed that all citizens are armed and no permits for personal weapons are needed.

Interesting idea. Imperial Starports are extraterritorial, meaning they are considered part of the Imperium, not the local world, and not subject to Local Law, but rather Imperial Law only. Once you or your Cargo are out of the starport and have cleared customs, you are subject to Local Law as well as Imperial Law. Mind you, as Timerover said, this does not prevent Starport Authority from enforcing local Law Level requirements and working with the local Law, but that is for you as a ref to decide for yourself IYTU.

You should also note that the Imperial starport is not always the only starport on a world. Non Imperial starports are fully subject to Local Law. Heck, this could be one justification for having a TL 12 world with only a D class starport listed. The listed starport is the Imperial Starport and only class D, and there may well be a local class A, B or C starport as well. But landing at the non Imperial Starport puts you under the direct authority of Local Law, not just the Imperial Law, and that could mean trouble.

Fun stuff.

 

[mike wightman]

So, according to this, can a high justice (so Imperial law) fugitive take refuge in an Imperial planet wihtout fear of being taken by Imperial MoJ officers?

What is an Imperial planet?
The Imperium does not rule planets, planetary governments do.
By treaty, and by the article I just quoted, the MoJ agents or IIIS sec ops sent to apprehend the fugitive is legally allowed to extradite the alleged criminal to a subsector court - or are we assuming guilty until proven innocent?

Must the Imperium in such a case ask for its extradition?

It would be a formality - doesn't allow the agents to carry guns in contravention of local law level though.

I guess not, and such a (presumed) criminal can be taken by the MoJ¹ agents even without the colaboration of the local LE forces, and the MoJ agents in this case can have the force (and so weapons) to perform their mission, with immunity against local laws for it. While this may not be a real weapons license, its quite close to it...

Note 1: I talk about MoJ agents, but any such Imperial agency (INI, IISS, etc.)may also fill into this reasoning​

They can request and are entitled to local law enforcement support. If local law enforcement doesn't use guns why would they allow an off world agent to do so contrary to local law?

 

[mike wightman]

The 3I is not the EU.

Never claimed it is - nor is it the USA or South Korea.

Law and justice exist on three levels within the Imperium.
1. The low justice of planetary and local authorities that governs everything from homicide to spitting on the sidewalk.
2. The middle justice of the subsectors that is intended to protect relatively helpless societies on low technology worlds and to protect all societies from excessive damage by military actions.
This is enforced by the police and military forces of the subsector duke, aided (if necessary) by lmperial military and naval forces.
3. The high justice of the Imperium, intended to prevent revolt against Imperial authority, to keep the peace
among member worlds, subsectors, and sectors; uphold the rights of sentient beings; and preserve commerce between worlds, subsectors and sectors. High justice is enforced by the lmperial Navy, Army and Marines, often assisted by the Security Branch of the Operations Office of the IISS.
JTAS 14, p. 19 "High Justice"

Major crimes can be combated by all three levels of law enforcement, and prosecuted by all three levels of court. Violators are sometimes subject to capital punishment.
ibid., p. 20​

Note that if the subsector court can try you for murder in addition to local law, that certainly means local law doesn't trump it.

Thank you for posting that - saves me from doing it.

Local police doesn't use guns. Planet does not permit the carrying of guns. Imperial agent is not going to be above this law unless the right to carry is an Imperial wide law which negates the point of local law level.

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry Mike, Planetary Law does not trump Imperial Law, at least NOT in the OTU.

"Law and justice exist on three levels within the Imperium.
1. The low justice of planetary and local authorities that governs everything from homicide to spitting on the sidewalk.
2. The middle justice of the subsectors that is intended to protect relatively helpless societies on low technology worlds and to protect all societies from excessive damage by military actions.
This is enforced by the police and military forces of the subsector duke, aided (if necessary) by lmperial military and naval forces.
3. The high justice of the Imperium, intended to prevent revolt against Imperial authority, to keep the peace
among member worlds, subsectors, and sectors; uphold the rights of sentient beings; and preserve commerce between worlds, subsectors and sectors. High justice is enforced by the lmperial Navy, Army and Marines, often assisted by the Security Branch of the Operations Office of the IISS."

JTAS 14, page 19 "High Justice"

Also:

"Major crimes can be combated by all three levels of law enforcement, and prosecuted by all three levels of court.
Violators are sometimes subject to capital punishment."

ibid., p 20

Simply put, the 3i is neither the US nor the EU, nor are they good comparisons to the 3I.

~Cryton

So you are saying the right to carry firearms is an Imperial law.

Therefore there is no point to the local law level since any Imperial citizen can use their Imperial right to bear arms...

 

[mike wightman]

Also, as Welsh pointed out (Bold is mine to high-lite the passage in question) :

Article I - Imperial Governance, Membership, Citizenship

The Imperium shall exercise no direct governance over any member world. Instead, the purpose of the Imperium shall be to provide for the Defense of all of the member worlds as a group, and to bring the Rule of Law to the spaces between worlds. No interference with local law or custom is contemplated, except where such local law or custom is in conflict with Imperial Law.

Any world may, through a recognized Representative, proclaim allegiance to the Imperium, and in so doing, such world shall become a Member of the Imperium, equal in status to all other members of the Imperium. Member worlds shall govern themselves as they see proper, provided that such government does not violate Imperial laws.

The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit Governmental Entities superior to the member worlds but subordinate to the Imperium. This shall include the power to abolish said entities as the Imperium sees fit.

The Imperium reserves to itself the power to create as it sees fit Bureaus and Agencies to carry out and enforce the Imperial will. This shall include the power to abolish said bureaus and agencies as the Imperium sees fit.

The Imperium considers as citizens any living recognized sentient creature native to or naturalized by a member world of the Imperium, or any living recognized sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a Citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world.

~Cryton

And once again - if carrying weapons is an Imperial law/right/permit it makes a mockery of local law level - therefore there is no Imperial law to allow it.

 

[mike wightman]

Aside from Edict 97, or where Imperial Law (and it's enforcers feeling the need to carry) taking precedent over Local Law, None that I know of.

Martial law.

As far as I know, the MOJ is primarily concerned with Middle Justice (Check out JTAS 14). Should the MOJ agents run across a High Justice case, one would expect a visit from a Edict 97 Agent.

~Cryton

Much of what we think we know about the MoJ we don't actually know...

 

[mike wightman]

I think it does. The only power to create Imperial law rests with the Emperor, and Imperial law -- the Emperor's whim, even -- overrides planetary law. So the Imperium clearly has the power to authorize a person to carry a weapon in spite of any planetary law.

Only if the y invoke the power of the Imperial Warrant.

The real question is, how often is this power exercised? I would suggest rarely. Better to have the locals deal with things and be diplomatic than to continually remind worlds of their lopsided relationship to a hereditary aristocracy.

I agree completely.

Exactly re stirring the pot, but it's really neither confederation nor federation. Worlds have no say in Imperial affairs, in a legal or constitutional sense. The Imperium has the power to simply take a pen and cross out whatever rights or privileges worlds have been granted. See Article VIII of the Warrant of Restoration.

And if you do that to a high population TL15 industrial world be prepared for the consequences...

 

[aramis]

And once again - if carrying weapons is an Imperial law/right/permit it makes a mockery of local law level - therefore there is no Imperial law to allow it.

You may have read the quote, but you obviously don't get the implications. Imperial law trumps local law in all cases. Local law level applies because the Imperial Government lets it apply.

The Warrant of Restoration is clear about what an "imperial world" is - any worth that joins the imperium. (Agent shows that this can be effected by careful assassinations...)

That Imperial Crimes can be enforced by all levels of law shows that you cannot gain local protection from the Imperium on an imperial world.

The extrality zones are protection from local; they are another example of imperial law trumping local.

Canon is consistent - LOCAL LAW is subject to Imperial Law. Violations of this principal get visits from unpleasant guys in battlesuits with big guns. Widespread on-world ignoring of Imperial Law can wind up with bombardment from orbit.

 

[mike wightman]

Ministry of Justice should have been LBB:09

 

[Spartan159]

At the risk of adding fuel, just because a government sets a high law level does not mean it's police force must be unarmed, DA6a Divine Intervention has the guards armed with SMGs and blade/daggers and yet the Law Level of Pavabid is 8.

 

[Cryton]

So you are saying the right to carry firearms is an Imperial law.

Therefore there is no point to the local law level since any Imperial citizen can use their Imperial right to bear arms...

Please, do not put words in my mouth.

No where did I ever infer that being a citizen of the 3I gives you the right to bear arms. In fact, it does not. Nor does it regulate your ability to do so. In fact, the 3I, in most circumstances, does not care if you do, or do not carry a weapon.

I also said that if a Local Law is in conflict with an Imperial Law, Imperial Law trumps Local Law every time. EVERY TIME.

As for the case of a World Government interfering with an armed Imperial agent in the course of his duties, regardless of Law Level, is High Treason against the 3I. Said World Government will not be in power for much longer than said act will take to happen.

Now, as to if said agent is or is not armed while on world, that is the GMs call. Should the GM decide that Agents of the 3I conform to local LL while onworld, that is entirely their choice. If the Imperium deems the Agent need be armed, the agent will be armed regardless of the Worlds objections.

My advice, you want to carry on a world with a high LL, get a local permit if you wish to leave the starport/Imperial extraterritoriality. If you want to carry in the starport, check with your GM on the Starports LL. Generally, I set my standard at LL3. But that is MTU, not yours. Nothing in cannon prevents you from wearing battledress and carrying a FGMP15 in the IMPERIAL starport of any world. Just do not try and leave it.