I think such a right would only apply to those who are directly agents of the Imperium, not to the average (e.g. free trader) traveller.
Imperial weapons permits
- Thread starter Spartan159
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I think such a right would only apply to those who are directly agents of the Imperium, not to the average (e.g. free trader) traveller.
Yes, absolutely. My point is the Imperium can trump local law, not that it goes about doing so as a matter of course. I would expect that an ordinary dogsbody from the MoJ would have no right to carry a gun where local law prohibited it. He'd be expected to work diplomatically with local authorities.
That's what interdiction is for ... to allow time for the IISS Contact and Liaison Branch to contact and liaise with a suitable replacement government, and to engineer the overthrow of the troublemakers.
But I am digressing from the OP.
I would suggest that being a citizen of the Imperium grants you no rights whatsoever (see Article VIII), and that "citizen" is a rather sloppy usage, since it implies privileges. "Subject" is more apt. But I am digressing still further....
This sort of thing could reasonably be considered an act of war or terrorism by a planetary government, depending on who fired the weapon and what they shot at. At the very least the planetary authorities would be quite justified in dispatching a system defence boat to neutralise the threat.
Even if you get away you've now got a price on your head in a 13th system ...
So, as a tl;dr, Imperial Agents (MoJ, Army, Navy, Scout, Nobility) could get around local laws regarding weapons, and the local government would have to deal with it. Of course, a lowly Scout invoking Imperial law isn't going to be looked at nicely by his superiors for causing a diplomatic incident over a handgun.
The imperium doesn't care about what personal/shipborn weapons people are toting around space, maybe baring radioactive weapons (FGMP, Particle Accelerators, Meson Guns). That's the problem of local governments.
Local governments could of course refuse the imperial personnel whatever they ask, but then depending on what they refuse the imperium could retaliate for refusing their will. Refusing to let a Imperial Dreadnaught dock at the starport is different from refusing to let a MoJ agent carry his service piece.
The imperium doesn't care about what personal/shipborn weapons people are toting around space, maybe baring radioactive weapons (FGMP, Particle Accelerators, Meson Guns). That's the problem of local governments.
Local governments could of course refuse the imperial personnel whatever they ask, but then depending on what they refuse the imperium could retaliate for refusing their will. Refusing to let a Imperial Dreadnaught dock at the starport is different from refusing to let a MoJ agent carry his service piece.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
If you go with 'Emperor Makes Law Period', then every single year of every OTU is really IMTU, since the emperor can change his mind at any time and we all have different ideas as to 'what the Emperor should do'.
Rather, I think there would be a matter of 'customary policy' that would be in play to reconcile typical Imperial need so there is an expectation and a working relationship as to what happens, without staying the Emperor's hand to do what is required for the defense of the realm under extraordinary circumstances.
That would be the typical situation for the OP's solitaire game, unless the result is some astronomical rolling 10 6s in a row- then the previously unknown dais built into every Type S rises up in the middle of the bridge, and our hitherto lowly hero gets the release codes for his Imperial Warrant....
Rather, I think there would be a matter of 'customary policy' that would be in play to reconcile typical Imperial need so there is an expectation and a working relationship as to what happens, without staying the Emperor's hand to do what is required for the defense of the realm under extraordinary circumstances.
That would be the typical situation for the OP's solitaire game, unless the result is some astronomical rolling 10 6s in a row- then the previously unknown dais built into every Type S rises up in the middle of the bridge, and our hitherto lowly hero gets the release codes for his Imperial Warrant....
Drakon
SOC-14 1K
This is the way I see things playing out for example on Lemish:
Lemish has a high law level, indicating that no weapons are allowed for its citizenry or visitors. Planetary/system law enforcement, on the other hand, is armed at least in "special weapons teams" if not rank and file officers. Being caught with a weapon is a violation of Lemishian law, unless you are a member of the law enforcement communities or a licenced bodyguard.
The Imperial nobility, meaning the subsector duke, baron and knight, who all have the "right/privledge" to raise husclares, have a "right/privledge" of being armed. But being that Lemish is a civilized planet, (regardless of what the TAS says, ) such priveldge is largely cerimonial and limited to personal firearms and or blade. It does not extend to WMDs or NBC weapons. None of this vials of antrax for duck hunting.
Imperial agents of the MOJ, (or other appropriate ministries) are required to notify Starport Authority upon arrival. I conjecture that the Emperor may issue the equivalent of a "License to Kill" warrant, to a FEW agents, and this number of Imperial weapon holders will be so few that the probablity of one showing up on Lemish to be quite rare. About as common as 007 visiting Muncie Indiana.
So, on Lemish, local Law enforcement does not carry lethal weapons. There are Special Weapons teams available to local law enforcment. Huscarles and bodyguards may be armed, but are licenced. Nobility may be armed, but is generally not done, because of the lack of need. Imperial Agents outside the starport will need dispensation from local authorities but generally this is a minor formality and easily obtained. Lemish is a loyal planet of the Imperium, and aids the Emperor when ever it is needed.
Now, after the Imperial Navy leaves in 1116, all bets are off
Lemish has a high law level, indicating that no weapons are allowed for its citizenry or visitors. Planetary/system law enforcement, on the other hand, is armed at least in "special weapons teams" if not rank and file officers. Being caught with a weapon is a violation of Lemishian law, unless you are a member of the law enforcement communities or a licenced bodyguard.
The Imperial nobility, meaning the subsector duke, baron and knight, who all have the "right/privledge" to raise husclares, have a "right/privledge" of being armed. But being that Lemish is a civilized planet, (regardless of what the TAS says,
) such priveldge is largely cerimonial and limited to personal firearms and or blade. It does not extend to WMDs or NBC weapons. None of this vials of antrax for duck hunting.Imperial agents of the MOJ, (or other appropriate ministries) are required to notify Starport Authority upon arrival. I conjecture that the Emperor may issue the equivalent of a "License to Kill" warrant, to a FEW agents, and this number of Imperial weapon holders will be so few that the probablity of one showing up on Lemish to be quite rare. About as common as 007 visiting Muncie Indiana.
So, on Lemish, local Law enforcement does not carry lethal weapons. There are Special Weapons teams available to local law enforcment. Huscarles and bodyguards may be armed, but are licenced. Nobility may be armed, but is generally not done, because of the lack of need. Imperial Agents outside the starport will need dispensation from local authorities but generally this is a minor formality and easily obtained. Lemish is a loyal planet of the Imperium, and aids the Emperor when ever it is needed.
Now, after the Imperial Navy leaves in 1116, all bets are off
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I'd suggest not saying anything more about the strategic critical nature of Muncie.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Greetings, Cryton, nice to hear from you.
I had not considered the case of multiple Starports, but I would expect that, particularly on a Balkanized world. I am a bit leery of extraterritorial rights, as those have historically caused problems, but I cannot imagine the Imperium trying to maintain several starports on a planet.
Thinking of the question, I wonder if the Imperium would put a Downport on a Balkanized world, as that could be a very big flash point for conflict if the world has multiple major powers.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I would argue that a high law level would almost dictate that a planet's police force would be well-armed.
Not necessarily. The question would be whether the police force needed to go armed, which really depends on the local culture rather than on how strict the laws are. "Law level" is really a rather simplistic idea, which doesn't really reflect (a) what the laws say and (b) what popular attitudes towards those laws are, or (c) what the actual street-level availability of banned weapons, etc., is.
Seconded.
I suppose, that that would be entirely dependent upon the government type. :CoW:
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Just a side comment. I am assuming what is meant by "antrax" is actually "anthrax". I checked by biological agents data book, and anthrax does not appear to be transmitted to birds. What you would need for waterfowl is Newcastle Disease Virus (also known as pseudo fowl pest virus). Parrot fever does not work on waterfowl, nor does fowl plague virus.
Anthrax principally effects herbivorous mammals, although other mammals and man can be effected by it. It would appear to have considerable potential for use on the K'kree, some possibility for use on the Vargr, and possibly on the Aslan.
However, given the effects on humans, I would say that any individual caught with vials of anthrax spores is going to have a LOT of explaining to do.
Edit Note: The above information is unclassified data, obtained from TM3-216 Military Biology and Biological Agents, March 1964.
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So you asume Edict 97 being a quite common warrant?
Being close to a Carte Blanche from the Emperor himself, I see it as a very uncommon one, only a few being in force at any time.
But it's also said that similar edicts are issued by Dukes and Archdukes in their territories, but even then, those will be special agents (akin of the fabled 00), and only a few wil lbe in each sector.
SO, I guess lesser Imperial agents are at hand from various agencies to perform those (relatively) minor missions, and I guess they can overcome local law in the weapons matter
Who told you local LE are unarmed in the high law planets?
Most planets with heavy weapons restrictions keep their LE armed nonetheless. After all ,that's what allows them to keep the law.
I've never assumed the weapons restrictions from local law affect their own LEOs, who will sure have permits for them.
I never told about Imperial citizens having the right to bear arms in planets where they are forbiden. I told about Imperial Agents being so allowed.
As said above, a Scout being in no special mission in a planet where weapons are forbidden can be arrested by local LE for weapons possesion (and if latter released by Impreial autorities he/she can expect very unpleasent assignements at least). An IISS agent in mission in the same planet will be allowed to carry this same weapon without any fear to local law.
From TD9, page 31 (article Noblesse Oblige):
I'm not sure about the implications of this, but it seems that nobles can bear arms regardless local law...
If so, maybe high level MoJ agents that can have trouble with this are made Honor Knights to avoid problems (after all, it's easier to elevate someone to Honor Knight than to issue him/her an Edict 97 warrant, and they will not be too many such agents).
Thanks for finding the citation... I couldn't remember where I'd seen it.
I have it on good authority (the late Don McKinney) that Traveller's Digest is just as canon as anything else by DGP after the release of MT.
Which means, at least, the sitting landed nobles have the right to discrete armaments. Which generally means, more than the local populace, probably less than the local constabulary's armed members (noting that a variety of law levels have majority unarmed or baton-only constables on the beat).
I would expect that Imperial officers on duty are also armed routinely; in fact, I expect almost all imperial combatant forces on groundside service are armed. (You seldom see illos without sidearms in GDW/DGP/IG/T20 materials.)
Further, actual warrant holders can have you shot just for questioning their actions or demanding explanations. (We see some of this in Agent.) Hell, digital ghosts of a handful of warrant holders are still able to have you shot for questioning their methods.
So here's a great example of something that conflicts clearly (and painfully) with the JTAS stuff posted above referring to Imperial law upholding the "rights of sentient beings." Presumably, the rights of sentient beings are somewhat ... limited.
I rememberes the name of the article, but wasn't unsure where it was.
The unsung heroes that keep the Traveller wiki are the ones to thank, as looking for the article there is how where I found wich TD to look (I was searching it on my Challenge collection).
Keep in mind that most adjoining jurisdictions have cooperative agreements that give each other some sort of extra jurisdictional authority. These would include agreements on extradition, and are typically mutually beneficial. Most jurisdictional statutes typically have some sort of "hot pursuit" exception, though this is far less often used.
These agreements exist because they are mutually beneficial.
Thus, in addition to certain (very limited) cases where certain Imperial officials have the authority to carry arms outside the XT line, in excess of the law level, there would likely be other agreements. These may include Imperial agreements to (voluntarily) limit the time place and manner of the exercise of the above authority, and local mechanisms to apply for specific license to exceed it.
An example could be a Imperially registered merc unit applying to operate on a LL7 world. Obviously the planetary government would have to agree for them to operate there, but what weaponry they bring, and times/places/mannners of its use are all subject to negotiation. The local government may similarly have a Status of Forces agreement regarding Imperial forces, and what exceptions are granted to them.
While Imperial law trumps local law, the tradition is one of leaving the locals to run things with minimal interference. The more the locals cooperate, the less the Impies need to get tactical and go chasing some fugitive with all manner of unseemly weapons. The Impies want to do a TL15-juiced surveillance, arrest, and confiscation of evidence on a TL 7 Imperial member world, they can just move in and do so; they will probably coordinate with the locals, and not flash any TL15 stuff around. The Impies tell the locals it's safe, they go up with their local unit, and arrest, then seal the place up for the Impies to covertly do a TL15 exploitation. The locals march the fugitive to the starport.
Could the Impies go wherever they wanted; likely yes. They would not, however. Often not, it would be because they were restrained by Imperial, not local law. As Imperial law trumps local law, and we know that local law levels are effective, it is because they are allowed to be by the Imperium. In the same spirit, the exceptions the Imperium requires will be very narrow, though those allowed by the locals may be broader, as long as appearances are kept up.
These agreements exist because they are mutually beneficial.
Thus, in addition to certain (very limited) cases where certain Imperial officials have the authority to carry arms outside the XT line, in excess of the law level, there would likely be other agreements. These may include Imperial agreements to (voluntarily) limit the time place and manner of the exercise of the above authority, and local mechanisms to apply for specific license to exceed it.
An example could be a Imperially registered merc unit applying to operate on a LL7 world. Obviously the planetary government would have to agree for them to operate there, but what weaponry they bring, and times/places/mannners of its use are all subject to negotiation. The local government may similarly have a Status of Forces agreement regarding Imperial forces, and what exceptions are granted to them.
While Imperial law trumps local law, the tradition is one of leaving the locals to run things with minimal interference. The more the locals cooperate, the less the Impies need to get tactical and go chasing some fugitive with all manner of unseemly weapons. The Impies want to do a TL15-juiced surveillance, arrest, and confiscation of evidence on a TL 7 Imperial member world, they can just move in and do so; they will probably coordinate with the locals, and not flash any TL15 stuff around. The Impies tell the locals it's safe, they go up with their local unit, and arrest, then seal the place up for the Impies to covertly do a TL15 exploitation. The locals march the fugitive to the starport.
Could the Impies go wherever they wanted; likely yes. They would not, however. Often not, it would be because they were restrained by Imperial, not local law. As Imperial law trumps local law, and we know that local law levels are effective, it is because they are allowed to be by the Imperium. In the same spirit, the exceptions the Imperium requires will be very narrow, though those allowed by the locals may be broader, as long as appearances are kept up.
