IMTU. A new (old) start

[aramis]

Those are not mutually exclusive. It is indeed expressly stated in S11, but that doesn't mean there is no basis for doubting it in other parts of canon.

BTW. no one says that there is no sector authority. Just that legislation is not (as stated) a prerogative of the sectors and not of the duchies.


Hans

Actually, Hans...

1) There IS good information in early CT - if you can't handle that limit, get out of this thread.

2) Ewan was asserting a lack of legislative authority at all levels below the emperor.

3) the restriction to classic has gotten dragoner to show some interesting sources I'd forgotten. Cryton and I both are looking at this as a kind of archaeology on Traveller pre-'86.

 

[Cryton]

Actually, Hans...

1) There IS good information in early CT - if you can't handle that limit, get out of this thread.

2) Ewan was asserting a lack of legislative authority at all levels below the emperor.

3) the restriction to classic has gotten dragoner to show some interesting sources I'd forgotten. Cryton and I both are looking at this as a kind of archaeology on Traveller pre-'86.

I will include 1987 release of Darrians in the mix as well. And yes this is an effort to reconstruct the 3rd Imperium as it was ORIGINALLY presented. And it's very much a different place from MTs, T20s, T4s, GTs and MGTs Imperiums.

 

[Cryton]

The High Justice article in JTAS 14, makes Subsector Dukes into an analogous position of a Sheriff:

"2. The middle justice of the subsectors that is intended to protect relatively helpless societies on low technology worlds and to protect all societies from excessive damage by military actions. This is enforced by the police and military forces of the subsector duke, aided (if necessary) by lmperial military and naval forces."

It goes on in later sections, seems the basic Imperial unit is the sector (of which anti-piracy enforcement is tasked). Note though, if there is military action, if it remains within a subsector, it is the subsector Dukes duty to restrain it, something to think about with the 1138th.

Wow. Love that. I need to find a copy of JTAS 14!

 

[rancke]

1) There IS good information in early CT...

Yes, and part of it contradicts the statement you keep quoting. What GDW did later than that ALSO contradicts it and might indicate which part they meant and which part was a mistake.

- if you can't handle that limit, get out of this thread.

As you wish.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Yes, and part of it contradicts your favorite statement.

Canon contradicts "Up is the direction directly opposite the center of the body you're on"???

 

[rancke]

Canon contradicts "Up is the direction directly opposite the center of the body you're on"???

I beg your pardon and will correct my post immediately.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

Hans.

While I did say " I wish you wouldn't" when you said you didn't want to be constrained by whats in CT, your input has been valued and appreciated, and I for one hope you can continue to give your insight within the bounds that have been set.

thanks for your posts.

~Rich

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Hi Will,

Ewan,

Unless one asserts that the sectors normally lack a sector duke, the combination of "rule" and "Legislation and enforcement are the prerogative ... or of the sectors" asserts legislation at the sector AND imperial levels.

Again, you've no basis for your assertions of no sector authority. It's blackletter in S11.

I didn't assert no sector authority, just no sector legislation. It's the "or" in the original quote that alows for interpritation, especially as the Empoerer is indead a sector Duke himself and an arch duke.

The Emporer can legislate for himself and Core, while the other sectors don't. If the "blackletter" as you put it had been "and" then it would have been different, but it's not it's "or".

The contect of the paragraph is also about Domains and Arch Dukes and what poweres they don't have, it's not specifically about the Emperor and the sectors and what powers they do have. It's a rebutle against the Domains and Arch Dukes so holds less weight as to an assertion of powers at the sector level.

Also "to rule" does not mean "to legislate", you can rule, indeed set precident (and policy) as well, without legislating. You can rule on others legislation. Much as I see the Dukes doing (In fact I see the all Imperial Nobles (high nobles that is) ruling in their patch).

"In the name of and for the good of the Emporer".

Appologies Will, but the cannon you quote is not as "black and white" as you assert, and can indeed be interprated.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

But Imperial nobles below the level of dukes do not rule anything. Barons and marquesses generally don't rule the worlds they are associated with because those worlds do not belong to the Emperor and so isn't his to hand out the rule over. Counts could theoretically rule the clusters they are associated with, but subsectors are said to be the lowest level of interstellar government, and a cluster government would be a lower level of interstellar government than a subsector, so they don't[*].

Well there is nothing in the CT cannon that says that Imperial nobles below dukes do not rule anything.

In the essay on Nobilty it says that "All but the highest noble ranks (count, duke, archduke) can be awarded in recognition of achievement or pre-eminence in a field of endeavor." Counting Couts as the highest noble ranks, and that "All nobility is part of the feudal system of Imperial government." where "Nobles, upon receiving their patent or upon confirming their inheritance when coming of age, swear continuing loyalty to the Imperium, to the Emperor, and to the Emperor's successors. Failure to do so can void the patent, for the generation or permanently."

so all Nobels are vassels of the Emperoe and they are all involved in Imperial Government.

Also in context as the essay describes the titles of the Nobles (the peerage) and starts from Baron it ends with the a Duke in a sector rising "to power and comes to be the sector
duke, the ruler of that sector" which implies that all the peerage from Barons "rule" to the exstent of their peerage; Baron (allocaton), Maquis planet, Count County, Duke subsector.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

Well there is nothing in the CT cannon that says that Imperial nobles below dukes do not rule anything.

Yes there is. The part of my post you quote points out where in CT canon it implies that Imperial nobles below dukes do not rule anything (in their capacity as Imperial nobles). Barons and marquesses generally don't rule the worlds they are associated with because those worlds do not belong to the Emperor and so isn't his to hand out the rule over. Counts could theoretically rule the clusters they are associated with, but subsectors are said to be the lowest level of interstellar government, and a cluster government would be a lower level of interstellar government than a subsector, so they don't.


Hans

 

[Peter Schutze]

>The GGs do have the power to take certain steps

actually there is one important and little known power they have .... refusing to receive a bill or sign into law which makes them bad role models for imperial "worlds are autonomous" feudalism.

the fact they can be sacked by notifying the queen of the nominated replacement is another reason they dont fit the "feudalism" model

 

[rancke]

While I did say " I wish you wouldn't" when you said you didn't want to be constrained by whats in CT,...

That wasn't what I said. I certainly do feel constrained by what's in CT. What I don't see the point of is ignoring what came afterwards. The CT material is expressed in broad terms that can be interpreted in a number of ways. The way that GDW and its successors developed it is one such way. It is not, of course, the only way, but I think there's at least a possibility that it indicates the way the original writers meant it. Don't forget that GT:Nobles was co-written by Loren Wiseman.


Now, if you want to rule out that particular interpretation up front, that's fine. But I don't have a whole lot of interest in exploring the alternatives. There are plenty of dark corners of the OTU that could use some attention.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Actually, Hans...

1) There IS good information in early CT - if you can't handle that limit, get out of this thread.

2) Ewan was asserting a lack of legislative authority at all levels below the emperor.

3) the restriction to classic has gotten dragoner to show some interesting sources I'd forgotten. Cryton and I both are looking at this as a kind of archaeology on Traveller pre-'86.

This (CT interstellar government and what is being discussed) is where I started for the governemt of my ATU; Home County, which is a Proto-Traveller lowish TL (TL9, TL10) MT one. However I wanted to get back to SOC having real meaning, and away from the rest of Cannon about the 3rd Imperium.

I had to ask questions such as "What happens in the Counties?" "Who legilastes?" "How is hommage and fealty sorted out?" "What happens if only a Baron is there to make the decisions?" "How big are counties?" "What population means that a Baron is the peer or a Marquis is a peer in a system?" etc etc etc

So that is where my views come from and how I get to the interperatations I do. I worked this out for the old Empire and then adjusted how it worked due to the circumstances of my ATU's history and it's srinking to a county.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Yes there is. The part of my post you quote points out where in CT canon it implies that Imperial nobles below dukes do not rule anything (in their capacity as Imperial nobles).

Agreed that it _implies_ they don't rule anything, however it doen't _state_ they don't rule anything. It can be interperated to _imply_ that they do in fact rule (see my previous post) there patch (from the point of view of Imperial law and government) not the planets directly.

Barons and marquesses generally don't rule the worlds they are associated with because those worlds do not belong to the Emperor and so isn't his to hand out the rule over. Counts could theoretically rule the clusters they are associated with, but subsectors are said to be the lowest level of interstellar government, and a cluster government would be a lower level of interstellar government than a subsector, so they don't.

They don't rule the worlds themselves (not nessesarily as you say), but they implement Imperial Law at their level and "ruling" for want of a better word in their patch. All nobles are members of the Imperial Government.

The issue is that it's all littered with inconsistancies. Sector or Subsector? Tax legislation and enforcment or just tax and enforment? Laws or Guidlines? Only Sector Dukes ruling, or all Nobles ruling?

Where there is no definative statement, or where there are contraditions, I give lower weight to the statements and read in context of the passages.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

To look at it the other way ask yourself the questions:

"What does the Baron of Beck's World do as a member of the Imperial Government?"

"What does the Marquis of Rethe do as a member of the Imperial Government?"

"What does the Count of Enope (if there indeed is one) do as a member of the Imperial Government?"

and then work out what they do from the information that is provided in cannon.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[rancke]

To look at it the other way ask yourself the questions:

CT canon does not provide the answers. We can extrapolate, we can rule out some possibilities, but if we're not allowed to add to canon, that's all.

"What does the Baron of Beck's World do as a member of the Imperial Government?"

IMTU he keeps an independent eye on the Imperial Bureaucracy and its dealings with Beck's World and investigates complaints. If the bureaucracy proves corrupt or inadequate, he has the authority to step in and issue orders to set matters straight. He will have to justify such interference to his superior, which would ordinarily be his count, but as the Barony of Beck's World is one of the lesser honors of Count Ewan of Roup, it would in this case be the duke himself.

"What does the Marquis of Rethe do as a member of the Imperial Government?"

IMTU she keeps an independent eye on the Imperial Bureaucracy and its dealings with Rethe and investigates complaints. If the bureaucracy proves corrupt or inadequate, she has the authority to step in and issue orders to set matters straight, but as Countess Ursula of Rethe (county) has her residence on Rethe, she (the Countess) is likely to step in herself in a crisis, so the Marchioness is unlikely to get to exercise her authority. Of course, if Countess Ursula proves corrupt, the Marchioness is obliged to do something about it. Could be rather tricky, since it would involve going to the Duke over the Countess' head.

"What does the Count of Enope (if there indeed is one) do as a member of the Imperial Government?"

IMTU there isn't a Count of Enope. Situated elsewhere Enope might rate a count, or at least a viscount[*], despite its low tech level, but being a part of the County of Roup, it doesn't.

[*] Yes, the viscount is definitely a post-CT addition, but it's one that was mandated by Marc Miller, and I think it's a useful one. Just as an insignificant world rates a baron while a significant world rates a marquis, a cluster without any major worlds would rate a viscount and a cluster with at least one major world would rate a count.​

Disclaimer: The County of Roup and its makeup is just my own ideas and entirely non-canonical.


Hans

 

[E.D.Quibell]

CT canon does not provide the answers. We can extrapolate, we can rule out some possibilities, but if we're not allowed to add to canon, that's all.

Cannon provides some answers:

"Except in extraordinary situations, to hold a high office in the lmperial bureaucracy, a person must be a peer (although not all peers hold office)."

and

"All nobility is part of the feudal system of Imperial government."

The exstrapolation is that they head the bureaucracy, they don't just "keep an independent eye on" it. They are part of the system of Imperial government, not seperate from it.

Also the way the ranks are written exstrapolates to they are part of the system of Imperial government assosiated with their fief's name. This isn't so apparent with Baron, but it is more so with Marquis, Count, and Duke, so we can further exstropolate that this is the same for Baron.

So what do they do when holdiong high office in the Imperial bureaucracy, as part of the Imperial government assosiated with their fief's name?

"Individual worlds are left to their own devices, providing they pay their taxes, acknowledge the power of the Imperium, and obey the basic laws it promulgates."

They collect taxes and ensure that Imperial law is enforced in their patch?

"lmperial power is present on worlds in the form of consulates, bureaucratic offices, and
bases"

using the Imperial assests at hand?

I don't believe that any of this is much of a streach. YMMV.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[Dragoner]

I just read an article on the Apocrypha 2 disk where Marc writes: "I would call the structure of the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy."

Interesting.

 

[aramis]

I suspect that the non-subsector dukes are more like combined Taxcollectors and Adjutant Inspectors-General than rulers. Still, I've always allowed them to be rulers of the starports.

I suspect, based upon the JTAS 14 article high justice that subsector courts are filled with justices who are nobles, if not honor peers, overseen by the Subsector Duke and formally appointed by the Sector Duke on the recommendation of the Subsector Duke. I have always had the same general set of crimes as JTAS 14 punished in Subsector Courts, with Nobles being able to be heard by the Subsector Duke.

Crimes normally subject to subsector justice include the unlawful introduction of high technology to low technology worlds, the violation of a planetary interdiction, possession and/or use of nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, and war crimes as defined in the Imperial rules of war.
(JTAS 14, High Justice, p.20)​

Also interesting is the nature of "high courts"...

The prosecutors and high courts of the lmperium concern themselves with crimes that would affect worlds in more than one subsector of the realm. These include the capture, transportation, and possession of slaves, piracy, the murder of Imperial officers, officials, or members of lmperial nobility, theft of lmperial property, treason, and conspiracy to commit treason against the lmperium (note that treason against a planetary government is a local crime).
(ibid., p.20-21)​

I've always put those tried at the subsector level, and appealed to the Sector and Domain levels. Guess I've been wrong about those for 20+ years.

It also notes about bribery that bribery is harder than baseline in a subsector one and "impossible with an Imperial Tribunal". The required skill for a subsector attorney is Admin 3, and for "high courts" it is admin 4. (this was an '82 publication - legal skill is in the 1985 Merchant Prince).

Not stated, but congruent with other canon, would be a requirement that Subsector and Sector courts require a knighthood or peerage to serve upon.

Likewise, I suspect the subsector dukes and local nobles should have inspection authority for local imperial offices. Rather than direct oversight, or hire/fire, they should be able to inspect and investigate.

 

[rancke]

Cannon provides some answers:

Some, yes. What about the rest?

"Except in extraordinary situations, to hold a high office in the lmperial bureaucracy, a person must be a peer (although not all peers hold office)."

But how high an office is "high"? And how many peers are there?

"All nobility is part of the feudal system of Imperial government."

So what part of the feudal system of government are the peers who do not hold office?

And just how does that so-called feudal system actually work?

The exstrapolation is that they head the bureaucracy, they don't just "keep an independent eye on" it. They are part of the system of Imperial government, not seperate from it.

An alternate extrapolation is that some of them head the bureaucracy. The subsector dukes, for example. Some of them -- the younger sons and the honor nobles and the rank nobles -- run the bureaucracy while some of them -- the ones associated with specific parts aka the high nobles -- keep an independent eye on the rest.

Also the way the ranks are written exstrapolates to they are part of the system of Imperial government assosiated with their fief's name. This isn't so apparent with Baron, but it is more so with Marquis, Count, and Duke, so we can further exstropolate that this is the same for Baron.

That's one possibility.

I don't believe that any of this is much of a stretch. YMMV.

It's not. It's quite CT canon-compatible. But it's not CT canon.


Hans