That comparison really does sum it up quite nicely, doesn't it. :rofl:
IMTU. A new (old) start
- Thread starter Cryton
- Start date
That comparison really does sum it up quite nicely, doesn't it. :rofl:
This quote
A thought on corruption- in a government of men not laws constitution or rights, corruption would be less about breaking a rule or bribery, but more about 'doing the Imperium wrong' or getting caught in inappropriate behavior for their station.
The first part is the difference between taking advantage of one's position in society and resources, and damaging or arguably treasonous behavior.
Selling the IN overpriced M-drives is just doing business, selling the IN known malfunctioning drives that results in battle deaths gets hushed up or results in SOC demotion and power and possibly a punishment to make an example, selling the Zhos a way to remotely blow up the drives results in stripping to SOC 2 followed by execution/life imprisonment.
The second is the nature of a government built on men not laws- the authority the state derives is not from consent of the governed, but of the perceived moral rectitude of the people given power.
So a noble accused of abusing their station 'too far' in acting in a manner that would turn worlds against the Imperium, whether official business or even personal life conduct, would directly impact their usefulness to the realm so the Imperium must be protected from such, one way or another.
Nobles are vulnerable to scandal, which could be false accusations, or are VERY guilty of bad behavior below their station. Either could result in a need to clear the accusations/silence the accusers, or strip the noble of their station and be punished 'for the good of the Imperium'.
This constant maintenance of reputation would be a huge factor and expenditure of effort on the part of serving nobles.
How well this is done would in large measure determine the stability of the Imperium, and could result in either better governance then our own era, or far worse.
Note that accusing a noble of such behavior, even if it is the truth, may put characters in the crosshairs of an overriding need of the realm to maintain an otherwise truly corrupt noble.
So corruption in this way is not about 'breaking Imperial code' so much as maintaining moral authority, and in a way is a tougher standard then 'just' a crooked official.
is just fantastic stuff.
A thought on corruption- in a government of men not laws constitution or rights, corruption would be less about breaking a rule or bribery, but more about 'doing the Imperium wrong' or getting caught in inappropriate behavior for their station.
The first part is the difference between taking advantage of one's position in society and resources, and damaging or arguably treasonous behavior.
Selling the IN overpriced M-drives is just doing business, selling the IN known malfunctioning drives that results in battle deaths gets hushed up or results in SOC demotion and power and possibly a punishment to make an example, selling the Zhos a way to remotely blow up the drives results in stripping to SOC 2 followed by execution/life imprisonment.
The second is the nature of a government built on men not laws- the authority the state derives is not from consent of the governed, but of the perceived moral rectitude of the people given power.
So a noble accused of abusing their station 'too far' in acting in a manner that would turn worlds against the Imperium, whether official business or even personal life conduct, would directly impact their usefulness to the realm so the Imperium must be protected from such, one way or another.
Nobles are vulnerable to scandal, which could be false accusations, or are VERY guilty of bad behavior below their station. Either could result in a need to clear the accusations/silence the accusers, or strip the noble of their station and be punished 'for the good of the Imperium'.
This constant maintenance of reputation would be a huge factor and expenditure of effort on the part of serving nobles.
How well this is done would in large measure determine the stability of the Imperium, and could result in either better governance then our own era, or far worse.
Note that accusing a noble of such behavior, even if it is the truth, may put characters in the crosshairs of an overriding need of the realm to maintain an otherwise truly corrupt noble.
So corruption in this way is not about 'breaking Imperial code' so much as maintaining moral authority, and in a way is a tougher standard then 'just' a crooked official.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Note that bribery is a personal development skill for merchants and a service skill for other. Other also gets two chances as forgery, which is another indication that routine bending of the rules is a thing in some strata of society.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
It would be interesting to see some of those who like the bribery rules actually live in an area where they operate. I suspect that they would not enjoy the experience.
Historically, Chicago was notoriously so in the early 20th C. As was New York. More current comparisons would breach the politics rule...
Many people do, however, and many, many more historically, live in such corrupt locales. They generally dislike it, but not enough to change it by force of arms. Those in power generally are the most corrupt, and benefit most from it, so are unlikely to change it peacefully.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Having lived around Chicago for most of my life, I am all to aware of Chicago's unsavory side, which is why I made the comment. Unfortunately, board rules prohibit me from citing some specific examples of bribery.
In My Traveller Universe, I have a great liking for H. Beam Piper's "veridicator", to which all civil servants are subject too on a quarterly basis.
Among other things, my characters in RPGs have been shot, blown out of airlocks, fallen to their deaths, drowned, and even eaten by an owlbear. While none of those events are something I wish to experience in real life, they were still fun within the context of the game.
Your "Bad Wrong Fun" very often the highlight of many other players' sessions.
A sadly simplistic explanation and application of Piper's rather nuanced device.
Piper, being a railroad "dick", was familiar with how the world actually works. That's why he took care to explain that the veridicator doesn't determine the truth. Instead, it determines what the person being examined thinks is the truth, something which is very different indeed.
Piper himself takes pains to point this out in the first Fuzzy novel. When discussing whether a Fuzzy can be veridictated, one of the characters tells an anecdote about the device being used on a psychiatric patient on Baldur with a Napoleonic delusion. When asked if he is Napoleon, the patient answers "yes" and the device confirms he's telling the truth.
There was a part in "Fuzzies and Other People" where the lawyer is briefing the clients: "When they ask you how you plead, you say 'not guilty'. Now remember, that's only the way you're pleading. You are not being asked whether you did what you've been charged with or not. When you say 'not guilty' you are making a true statement."
No matter what, someone will try to get around anything.
No matter what, someone will try to get around anything.
the little fuzzy books were a pleasant read. they would likely fit well into traveller as a minor race, if you ignore the bit about their crashed spaceship (looked like a serious mis-jump of a luxury cruise liner for a race that can fit a LOT of staterooms into one ton of space). if you include it, then their homeworld would have been very high tech, remote, and perhaps dead once found (its not clear how long its been, and you could move the colony world to milieu zero in the timeline easily enough).
the veridicator would likely be psionic technology, so TL16+. could be a cool plot point, but not something that could be common in the usual empire settings. having a scam version with a psychic pushing a button behind a curtain could be an awesome way to make a corrupt system for an adventure though....
the veridicator would likely be psionic technology, so TL16+. could be a cool plot point, but not something that could be common in the usual empire settings. having a scam version with a psychic pushing a button behind a curtain could be an awesome way to make a corrupt system for an adventure though....
Hi folks! I am the OP for this thread, and I am going to once again ask people to take that off topic stuff elsewhere.
What off topic stuff you ask? Everything Fuzzy.
Not only can you not support the TL 16+ using the LBB77 rules as anything other than handwavium made by the GM, I detest Piper and his works, and Fuzzy-anything has no place IMTU. Ever.
AS THE ORIGINAL POSTER OF AN IMTU THREAD, I KINDLY ASK YOU TAKE THAT DISCUSSION ELESEWHERE.
What off topic stuff you ask? Everything Fuzzy.
Not only can you not support the TL 16+ using the LBB77 rules as anything other than handwavium made by the GM, I detest Piper and his works, and Fuzzy-anything has no place IMTU. Ever.
AS THE ORIGINAL POSTER OF AN IMTU THREAD, I KINDLY ASK YOU TAKE THAT DISCUSSION ELESEWHERE.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Cryton, my sincere apologies for bringing up the subject of veridicators, leading to the "Fuzzies" comments. I had no intention of triggering that or hijacking the thread into another totally unrelated discussion. I was just thinking of ways to keep civil servants honest (to the degree possible), civil, and servants. I have encountered many, many uncivil non-servants over the years.
Heh, I was clear on the corruptible nature of LE, firefighters and civic officials before I graduated high school. Track on the flow of money and the behavioral response to fear and you can spot the corrupt ones fast.
And always get a receipt.
I do love the CT LL/Bribery roll mechanic so, always have.
No worries. Unfortunately, it is my belief that the only way to truly keep Civil servants honest in any current culture, is to either make taking a bribe not worth their time, or to make the repercussions so severe that taking a bribe is not worth the risk.
Some cultures in Traveller use different methods, Psionics (Zhodani), Loss of Honor, status and position in society (Aslan), or some other method will vary from world to world (Law Level). Sadly in an Imperial (Proto Traveller or later) setting, use of Psionics and Mind scanning devices are outright illegal.
Dueling among Imperial Nobles, combined with possible loss of ones Rank and Position seems to work for the most part, though I imagine, like anything, there are exceptions.
How will you handle psionics in your "reboot"? It is part of the game, something like 10 pages out of 144 are devoted to it.
Will there be a flat prohibition, available when the referee allows it, or something else?
I'm interested because I never really got to use psionics in my games. None of my players ever had any interest in it, oddly enough. I'd occasionally assign various powers to various NPCs and then use the rules faithfully.(1) However, because only NPCs ever used psionics in my games, the players sometimes never even suspected that psionics were in use!
1 - I firmly believe that the referee must follow the rules too, especially when performing actions which are "out of sight" of the players.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
The problem is when you have so many civil servants that you cannot afford to pay them excessive amounts, and shooting them out of hand under a public good statute would reduce the population somewhat drastically.
That is one reason why I am working on a sector to the Rimward of the Solomani, where the Imperium is something in data banks, history books, and for storytellers, the Zhodani are somewhat mythical, and the Ancients are not the only prior space-faring race. Along with odd things drifting in from Elsewhere or Elsewhen.
As for those who like the bribery rules, consider the following.
"I need that ship within 3 months!"
"Hmm, 3 months you say? Then how about another Million Credits, cash, up front, and we will move it to the front of the production line."
"Oh, and you want it to work fine right off of the bat? Then another Million Credits, cash, otherwise, no guarantees."
Or, the following.
"You want this Tri-Dee gear cleared through customs? Then, Ten Thousand Credits, cash, to me and another Ten Thousand Credits cash to my supervisor. Otherwise, we tag if for further inspection, and you might get it back in pieces six months from now after going through the customs court. Then again, it just might get lost."
That's a fun one. Up until Library Data was released, Psionics were not, nor have they ever been illegal. However it should be noted that:
"The climate of public opinion is extremely negative, to the point that individuals find it unhealthy to admit of possession of, or sympathy for, psionic powers." (Book 3 ['77 edition], pg 42
I also plan on using the responses listed there as well for when planetary authority's catch you using psionics, which range from (on a 2D throw) 12+ lobotomy, to 8+ tarring and feathering, to 4+ immediate deportation and several other results as well.
As to the 3I's views on psionics IMTU, they are not illegal under 3I law for a proto-Traveller setting. Psionics are used by several member races of the 3I, races who's worlds are a contributing part of the 3I, and Psionics are used by one of it's greatest political foes, but for the most part, like so many other things, their legality or illegality, and the punishments for their use are up to the individual world governments that make up it's member worlds.
Hehe, due to another question asked, turns out I was WRONG on this issue. Psionics didn't become illegal in the 3I until Library Data was released. So, technically in a Proto-Traveller Universe, it depends on the world, and if Psionics are allowed on said world, then you can have real issues keeping your thoughts to yourself.
Yep, I agree. For here on Earth that is. Nice thing about Traveller is the ability to explore other solutions than the "lack of" here on this planet.
You should start an IMTU thread yourself on this, at very least, I have found it makes an excellent sounding board for ideas.
Hehe, yeah, I see this sort of thing happening on worlds with High Pop (Cant afford good pay), and Low Law (What ya gonna do, chum?) worlds.
