IMTU. A new (old) start

[Dragoner]

Here is the snippet from High Passage #5, 1982, Planetary Government in Traveller:

5. Feudal Technocracy1. Ruling functions are performed by specific individuals for persons who agree to be
ruled by them. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities which are mutually beneficial.
The lower levels of government (all the way to the citizens themselves) support the upper levels of government for
as long as the general system provides a living for all2. Examples: Japan (in that companies tend to hire employees
for life, and strong loyalties are formed), and the United States (in that some populations have strong party
loyalty in return for local assistance by the party in the form of jobs and handouts).

and for the footnotes:

1 Feudal Technocracy was the dominant government form in H. Beam Piper’s Space Viking. Organized in a system of
kingdoms, duchies, and other small states, ruled by (frequently-warring) noblemen. Despite (or perhaps because of) the
political instability, the government to achieves/retains a relatively high level of technology. Notice that it parallels
Balkanization, but acknowledges some form of central authority.
2 I would call the structure of the Imperium a Feudal Technocracy.

Damn, I loaned out my copy of Space Viking as well.

I would say that IMTU, I would make the subsector a "county" for the purpose of tax collection, under the heading of a Count, with a Duke, much like an old Roman Dux as the military govenor or "sheriff," keeping the Count honest as well as keeping the law.

As the governor, the Dux was both the highest civil official as well as the commander-in-chief of the legions garrisoned within the province.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dux_Bellorum

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Crimes normally subject to subsector justice include the unlawful introduction of high technology to low technology worlds, the violation of a planetary interdiction, possession and/or use of nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons, and war crimes as defined in the Imperial rules of war.
(JTAS 14, High Justice, p.20)​

Also interesting is the nature of "high courts"...

The prosecutors and high courts of the lmperium concern themselves with crimes that would affect worlds in more than one subsector of the realm. These include the capture, transportation, and possession of slaves, piracy, the murder of Imperial officers, officials, or members of lmperial nobility, theft of lmperial property, treason, and conspiracy to commit treason against the lmperium (note that treason against a planetary government is a local crime).
(ibid., p.20-21)​

.

I'll have to go back and read the article, I've not read it in a while (and to complety missed it when thinking about MTU), but theft of lmperial property at Sector or even Subsector court? waist of time and money. For every one who nicks a bit of fruit from the SPA to be transported to the Subsector Capital when they could easily be prosocuted by the local Baron? No sense in that.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[E.D.Quibell]

It's not. It's quite CT canon-compatible. But it's not CT canon.

Hans

I think that pretty much sums it up Hans.

There's not enough flesh on the bones of CT canon to be able to answer even the most simple questions about the Imperial Govenment without considerable interpritation and exstrapolation.

Which means that prestty much any interpritation can be argued to be the case.

Best regards,

Ewan

 

[aramis]

"How high is high?"
"High" is used in the JTAS 14 article for sector and higher.

It specifies tribunal sizes at 3-9 judges. (JTAS 14, High Justice, p.22)

One other thing it notes: Multi-level prosecution and/or conviction is allowed. That is, you murder a nobleman, the local court can try you, and so can the subsector and high court.

It's likely that, in a case where the local court has already issued a grave enough sentence, the prosecutor at the SS level will pass, and if the SS level convicts, it's likely that the sector level will also pass.

I suspect the local world's noble is probably the one to forward such matters for prosecution at the SS and Sector levels... but I can't prove that.

 

[Cryton]

Going through things again as I get ready to launch a new campain, and found this and had to address it.

I I think the original starship encounter tables help with this. They indicate that there is essentially no piracy in systems that have A or B starports; these are presumably, then, important enough in trade to warrant enough protection from subsector and local navies to make piracy a bad idea.

CT B2 77. According to the Ships Encounters section and chart, Pirates are encountered when a 2d6 roll + mods come up a 12. the mod for class A starport is +6, meaning pirates are encountered at class A starports a LOT, basically any time a "6" is rolled on 2d6. The mod for a B class starport is +4. This makes Piracy shockingly common according to the original starship encounter charts, with it becoming less common as you travel to systems with less developed starports.

It also says the results of the chart "may, and should, be superseded by the Referee in specific situations, especially if a newly entered system is in military or civil turmoil, or involves other circumstances."

All this goes back to what I said in my early posts, the 3I is not a very safe place for a Free trader to ply his trade.

 

[aramis]

So I had Cryton read me that table:

8- No encounter
9-11 Free Trader
12 Pirate
13 Subsidized Merchant
14 Patrol
15 Subsidized Merchant
16-17 Yacht
18 Patrol

DM's
+6 Starport A
+4 Starport B
+2 Starport C
+1 Starport D
–2 Starport E
–4 Starport X

THis means
SP A = 5:36 chance of pirate, 1/36 of no encounter
SP B = 5:36 chance of pirate, 6/36 of no encounter
SP C = 3:36 chance of pirate, 15/36 of no encounter
SP D = 2:36 chance of pirate, 21/36 of no encounter
SP E = no chance of pirate, 33/36 of no encounter
SP X = no chance of pirate, 36/36 of no encounter

Note for comparison: CT'81 chances of pirate (using 1983's Starter table)
A: none
B: none
C: 3/36, 4/36 if scout base
D: 4/36, 5/36 if scout base (The second entry can't be hit, as D ports can't have Navy bases, and a DM+2 from a Navy base is needed)
E: 3/36. no bases possible.
X: 5/36. No bases possible.

And no encounter:
A: 10/36, 6/36 if Scout base, 3/36 if Navy Base, 1/36 if both
B: 10/36, 6/36 if Scout base, 3/36 if Navy Base, 1/36 if both
C: 15/36, 10/36 if Scout base. No Navy base possible
D: 10/36, 6/36 if Scout base.
E: 23/36. No bases possible.
X: 22/36. No bases possible.

This is a serious retcon....

 

[Cryton]

Been using my LBBs, and those are 77 vintage. I do not have the 81s, and didn't bother to check my Starter edition. lol.

But as I said, the Earliest Starship encounter charts have pirates showing up a lot in class A space!

 

[aramis]

Looking at those encounter tables from 1E... (reviewed the thread while chatting with Cryton on Skype)...

Reviewing the encounter tables....

CT'77 Main Encounter Table
8- No encounter
9-11 Free Trader
12 Pirate
13 Subsidized Merchant
14 Patrol
15 Subsidized Merchant
16-17 Yacht
18 Patrol

DM's
+6 Starport A
+4 Starport B
+2 Starport C
+1 Starport D
–2 Starport E
–4 Starport X

Pirate and Patrol subtable
2-6 Type S (15/36)
7 _ Type Y (6/36)
8-12 Type C (15/36)
​

Chances by type from CT'77 - of 1296 total chances.
Type: _ A ___ R ___ S ___ Y ___ C ___ Total
SP A: 324 _ 360 _ 165 _ 246 _ 165 __ = 1260
SP B: 540 _ 216 _ 135 __ 90 _ 135 __ = 1116
SP C: 540 __ 72 __ 45 __ 18 __ 45 ___ = 720
SP D: 432 __ 36 __ 15 ___ 6 __ 15 ___ = 504
SP E: 108 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ = 108
SP X: _ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 _____ = 0

Wow... This implies a lot of merchants, and very little combatant craft outside of A and B ports. And nobody goes to X ports.

I can see why the tables changed. The mode changed a good bit, by having separate columns per type of port...

Remember, Navy and Scout base presence wasn't accounted for in CT'77 on the encounter tables.

 

[Cryton]

So, run those numbers on the '81/Starter Traveller charts...

 

[aramis]

So, run those numbers on the '81/Starter Traveller charts...

Alright, already!

By Starport and Base Code... Still out of 1296. (For comparison to the above)

SP BS ___ A ___ R ___ M ___ Y ___ S ___ T ___ C ___ L ___ K ____ Total
A _ B _ 108 _ 288 _ 288 _ 216 __ 72 _ 216 __ 72 ___ 0 ___ 0 ____ = 1260
A _ N _ 144 _ 288 _ 288 _ 180 _ 106 _ 144 __ 36 ___ 0 ___ 0 ____ = 1186
A _ S _ 180 _ 288 _ 216 _ 144 _ 144 _ 106 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ____ = 1080
A _ - _ 216 _ 216 _ 144 _ 108 _ 180 __ 72 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 _____ = 936
B _ B _ 216 _ 360 _ 216 _ 108 _ 108 __ 72 _ 180 ___ 0 ___ 0 ____ = 1260
B _ N _ 288 _ 360 _ 180 __ 72 _ 144 __ 36 _ 108 ___ 0 ___ 0 ____ = 1186
B _ S _ 360 _ 288 _ 144 __ 36 _ 180 ___ 0 __ 72 ___ 0 ___ 0 ____ = 1008
B _ - _ 360 _ 216 _ 108 ___ 0 _ 216 ___ 0 __ 36 ___ 0 ___ 0 _____ = 936
C _ S _ 252 _ 360 ___ 0 _ 108 __ 36 _ 324 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ____ = 1080
C _ - _ 252 _ 360 ___ 0 __ 72 ___ 0 _ 252 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 _____ = 936
D _ S _ 144 _ 108 __ 72 __ 36 _ 396 ___ 0 ___ 0 _ 144 _ 180 ____ = 1080
D _ - _ 108 __ 72 __ 36 ___ 0 _ 324 ___ 0 ___ 0 _ 180 _ 216 _____ = 936
E _ - _ 108 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 _ 144 __ 72 __ 36 ___ 0 _ 108 _____ = 468
X _ - ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 ___ 0 _ 252 _ 108 _ 144 ___ 0 _____ = 504

Hmmm... massively broken, IMO. C ports have too few scouts.
The modality isn't bad, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Cryton]

Looks like it works for the Spinward Marches, where A classes cant skip all the C, D, and E class starports. Otherwise, your standard A, B, C, and D class starports with no bases, all have the same amount of ship traffic, with the only variance being ship types....

Seems more broken than the '77 tables. I think I will make my own encounter tables as neither of the CT canonical tables make much sense.

 

[Cryton]

Just stumbled on this:

From Book 2, page 43 of the original Striker miniatures game:
Rule 78: The Imperial Rules of War
...Although the lmperium is, in principle, opposed to 'armed conflict within the realm, it realizes that there is no practical possibility of totally eradicating force of arms as a means of resolving disputes within and between the various member and client states. To mitigate the potentially most disastrous aspects of armed conflict, the rules of war have evolved as an accumulation of unwritten concepts established on a case-by case basis. The rules of war have not been officially codified, both to prevent them being seen as an lmperial endorsement of war and to prevent formal precedent from preventing lmperial intervention whenever the lmperium deems it necessary. The main aim of the rules is to maintain the economic and military well-being of the realm, and the lmperium will intervene only when military action threatens this. The primary causes of instability, as viewed by the Imperium, are long-term economic dislocation and excessive extra-planetary influence.
Long-term social or economic dislocation is suffered when a region suffers some permanent or semi-permanent loss in its ability to carry on at it's pre-war level of economic activity. Major causes of this include large-scale civilian casualties, contamination of agricultural land or raw material deposits, wide-spread destruction of industrial facilities or transportation systems, etc. For example, the destruction of merchant shipping engaged in the transport of strategic materials is an acceptable military tactic as it is directed at choking off industrial output by denying it required raw materials. Mass destruction of merchant shipping, regardless of it's cargo or use, has a good chance of triggering lmperial intervention due to such an action's long-term effects.

Hehe this makes the 3I a pretty rough place! It definitely reinforces the statements and conclusions I had from the CT book 4 & 5 paragraphs and about the kind of place the proto Traveller 3I can be!

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Around page 7.

It was around page 7 that I suddenly realized that I am seeing a lot of references to the UK and USA and how they govern, but no one seems to have mentioned the very people and government that gave us the term "imperium", the bloody Romans.

Who, I seem to recall had let's see,

A Senate,
A class of Knights,
A system of courts,
A code of laws,
And that dude at the top, who could mess with pretty much all the above.

Yeah, sounds awfully 3I to me. I mean, I am probably biased since my first Traveller Ref described his Adventure being a period of Roman history where in my Father, the Emperor had been assassinated and as Prince of the Realm had to make it back to Capital to take the Throne. Which I am pretty sure means my first Traveller experience was playing Octavian...In Space and that too sort of colors my view of the OTU.

Anyway, as I said, on page 7, so I should get back that and finish the rest of this thread. Then I may have more comments. Fair warning.

 

[Cryton]

just finished digesting T5. I have this comment to make.

OMG!!! MTU IS T5s 3I!!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Cryton :devil:

 

[Shiara]

The Imperial Rules of War have always strongly reminded me of the CoDominium situation in the Falkenburg's Legion and There Will Be War series by Jerry Pournelle. Mercenary outfits, CoDo (Imperial) intervention when things get out of hand, and so on. Wish I hadn't lost those books.

Shiara

 

[Dragoner]

It was around page 7 that I suddenly realized that I am seeing a lot of references to the UK and USA and how they govern, but no one seems to have mentioned the very people and government that gave us the term "imperium", the bloody Romans.

Who, I seem to recall had let's see,

A Senate,
A class of Knights,
A system of courts,
A code of laws,
And that dude at the top, who could mess with pretty much all the above.

Yeah, sounds awfully 3I to me. I mean, I am probably biased since my first Traveller Ref described his Adventure being a period of Roman history where in my Father, the Emperor had been assassinated and as Prince of the Realm had to make it back to Capital to take the Throne. Which I am pretty sure means my first Traveller experience was playing Octavian...In Space and that too sort of colors my view of the OTU.

Anyway, as I said, on page 7, so I should get back that and finish the rest of this thread. Then I may have more comments. Fair warning.

Don't forget Dukes in the Dux Bellorum; I model my 3I off of Rome as well and have done so since the 80's.

 

[robject]

GREAT Discussion!

THIS is a GREAT thread that should be MARKED, EDITED, and INDEXED.

Parts of it should be required reading.

 

[Cryton]

THIS is a GREAT thread that should be MARKED, EDITED, and INDEXED.

Parts of it should be required reading.

Thought you would like it.

 

[creativehum]

Hans,

This continued insistence in equating corruption with pragmatism and corruption with limited resources means that you're still consciously or unconsciously presuming the Imperium is a 21st Century Western nation-state structured on a basis of territorial sovereignty and complete with a separation of powers into neat little boxes labeled "legislature", "judiciary", and "executive". You just don't "grok" how, given comm lag inherent in jump drive, a polity as large as the Imperium must work. You may understand it on one level, but you still unconsciously presume the exact opposite on another.

The fact that the Imperial nobility cannot afford to do right all the time or punish evil-doers all the time is not an indication of the type of corruption you're blithely assuming. The fact that the Maleforge Event occurred in a given duchy doesn't mean that that duchy is corrupt. The fact that a someone with the title senator is being held aboard a prison hulk doesn't mean the Duchy of Regina is corrupt either. All those situations mean is that the local nobility in question had to take into account other concerns, concerns which very well may be honest and aboveboard.

In fact, the only thing that those situations do illustrate is the primary tenet about the Imperium which GDW maintained from the very beginning and throughout Traveller's run: That the Imperium is a "... a remote centralized government possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm...".

The Imperium doesn't have the resources or the time to be either the United States or the European Union. As that long ago TML member put it, the Imperium sometimes cannot afford to be good. It may wish to do good, but it manifestly cannot do good in all places at all times because it cannot be in all places at all times.

The Imperium zealously guards those few things which it believes are absolutely vital: the defense of the realm and the free movement of shipping within it. Everything after that is up for negotiation, everything after that is dealt on a case by case basis because the Imperium simply doesn't have the resources or time to do it any other way. Even within the duchies, communications lag mean the Imperium will more often choose not to act rather than act after the fact.

When making a decision, the local nobility will follow what policies are in place and which precedents apply. When making a decision, the local nobility will also balance the many and varied costs of Imperial intercession with the benefits derived from that intercession. Except in rare cases which involve those very few issues the Imperium feels are absolutely vital, the local nobility will not find their hands bound by some law or piece of legislation which require said noble to always respond to A and B with C and D.

That last bit is what those people who unconsciously and continually assume the Imperium is just a 57th Century version of the European Union always fail to truly comprehend.

In the end the hands of the man on the spot are not bound by laws, rules, and regulations. He has general policies and plenty of precedents to guide his decisions but, if he can successfully defend his actions to his superiors, if he can cover his ass, he can do pretty much what he damn well pleases. This is what GDW meant when it spoke of "feudalism" and of "rule by men and not by laws".

This Man-On-The-Spot style of governance means the Imperium is good and bad, weak and strong, honorable and corrupt, omniscient and blind. Maleforge and plague cures can and do exist in the same duchy because the Imperium does what it can and it chooses very carefully what it attempts to do.


Regards,
Bill

While I'm sure anyone re-reading this thread will come across this, I wanted to call it out, since I loved it so much.

I am also reminded that while I was always amazed by and in awe of Hans' tenacity... what he wanted from a Traveller setting was always and ultimately 180 degrees from what I would ever want.

 

[mike wightman]

THIS is a GREAT thread that should be MARKED, EDITED, and INDEXED.

Parts of it should be required reading.

I think I must still have been in exile when it was originally posted, not one comment from me...

on a proto-Traveller issue

A lot of this stuff has been discussed before this thread, and it has been discussed a lot since.

I particularly like whoever it was who compared the Imperial subsector duke and the sector set up to being like mob bosses.