CT Only: Industrial Vs. Non-Industrial

[Supplement Four]

Help me get my head around this.

Some worlds are tagged as "Industrial" which means that there is a large industrial base on the world, and the world is capable of making finished goods.

Other worlds are tagged as "Non-Industrial", which means that there's no real industry on the world, and exports are more agrarian in nature.

What I'm curious about are worlds that aren't tagged either way. Are these worlds where the industrial base is only big enough to serve the world and no large scale exports of finished goods are possible?

What's your take on that?

 

[whulorigan]

Help me get my head around this.

Some worlds are tagged as "Industrial" which means that there is a large industrial base on the world, and the world is capable of making finished goods.

Other worlds are tagged as "Non-Industrial", which means that there's no real industry on the world, and exports are more agrarian in nature.

What I'm curious about are worlds that aren't tagged either way. Are these worlds where the industrial base is only big enough to serve the world and no large scale exports of finished goods are possible?

What's your take on that?

Remember that these were supposed to be "trade codes" for use in the "Tramp Free Trader" Campaign.

An "Industrial World" produces an excess of output above and beyond its own needs, so that it has industrial products to export that a canny Free Trader captain might capitalize upon.

A "Non-Industrial World" produces insufficient (or NO) output for its own needs, and is a net importer of Industrial Products.

A world with no code either way will produce industrial output sufficient for its own needs to be relatively self-supporting, but does not have large exports or imports in its trade profile regarding industrial production.

The same is true for Agricultural/Non-Agricultural/No-Agriculture-Code worlds.

The codes can be used to help determine what might be a good gamble for a trader captain to buy on an export world and sell on a corresponding import world, presuming the distance/transport cost isn't too high.

 

[tjoneslo]

In every definition of "Non-Industrial" i've seen, it's always only been population of 6 (millions) or less. In T5 the definition is pop 4-6, in earlier versions it's been population 6 or less.

For Industrial the definition has been population 9+ and a vacuum, tainted, or otherwise unbreathable atmosphere.

I think that the term "non-industrial" is mis-leading. A better term might be "moderate population".

But, of course that doesn't answer the question of the available trade goods. But that varies so much with which version of Traveller you are using, it's hard to discuss.

 

[whulorigan]

In every definition of "Non-Industrial" i've seen, it's always only been population of 6 (millions) or less. In T5 the definition is pop 4-6, in earlier versions it's been population 6 or less.

For Industrial the definition has been population 9+ and a vacuum, tainted, or otherwise unbreathable atmosphere.

I think that the term "non-industrial" is mis-leading. A better term might be "moderate population".

Perhaps the argument is that Industrial Worlds will tend to produce industrial pollutants as a side effect, hence the vacuum, trace, exotic (or tainted/breathable) atmospheres, and that a world that produces sufficient industry for substantial export at the interstellar level will require a minimum population base (and likewise a small population base will produce insufficient industry to meet its needs).

 

[Enoki]

I see the difference this way:

Industrial: Engages is large scale mass production of a range of goods. There are large corporations and mega corporations that produce goods on this world on a scale that allows large volume exports.

Examples: Mass produces land vehicles and air rafts. Or, produces millions of tons of finished metals for further production.

Non-Industrial: Engages in smaller scale production of goods. May produce specialty items for specific smaller markets. Goods may or may not be exported.

Examples: Has a company that produces limited run or hand built luxury grav vehicles for the well-to-do. Produces a few thousand tons of exotic premium grade metal alloys for further production.

Non-Industrial worlds lack the local market and population to support true mass production and mass consumerism so they focus on quality goods marketed to a limited audience. Industrial worlds churn out products everybody wants and needs cheaply and in vast quantities.

 

[GypsyComet]

As these are Trade codes, one interpretation is that Ag and In worlds are net exporters, Non-Ag and Non-In are net importers, and no code of that type indicates revenue neutral or close to it.

What that breaks down to specifically for world descriptions during play is going to vary with the other parts of the UWP.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

What I'm curious about are worlds that aren't tagged either way. Are these worlds where the industrial base is only big enough to serve the world and no large scale exports of finished goods are possible?

What's your take on that?

Depends on what the worlds are tagged as.

 

[rhialto]

As these are Trade codes, one interpretation is that Ag and In worlds are net exporters, Non-Ag and Non-In are net importers, and no code of that type indicates revenue neutral or close to it.

What that breaks down to specifically for world descriptions during play is going to vary with the other parts of the UWP.

This is the most succinct way of explaining my understanding of these codes, too.

 

[atpollard]

In every definition of "Non-Industrial" i've seen, it's always only been population of 6 (millions) or less. In T5 the definition is pop 4-6, in earlier versions it's been population 6 or less.

I think that the term "non-industrial" is mis-leading. A better term might be "moderate population".

Population and Industry are linked.

Given a typical workforce of 60% of the total population (we will assume that young children and their mothers are not being sent to work in factories), then a typical POP 3 world of 5000 people would have a workforce of only 3000 people. If HALF the workforce was employed in the Manufacturing sector (a staggering high percentage), that would only be 1500 workers to support all Industry on that world.

The Saturn Plant in Spring Hilll, Tennessee was the only factory to manufacure Saturn brand cars in the 1990's. It employed 3 shifts of 1000 employees per shift to manufacture 66 vehicles per year per employee.

The POP 3 world be an Industrial "Company Town" with only one factory employing 1/3 of the total planetary work force to produce a single product at 1/3 the factory capacity (1 shift) and the remaining 500 workers struggling to provide the plastic and steel needed to support the factory.

It takes POP to support Factories, and Factories to be an IND exporter world. If each world exports 1% of its maufacturing capacity ...

At POP 4 (50,000) and a more typical 20% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 6 thousand workers would support 2 factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 76 tons of goods per week.

At POP 5 (500,000) and a more typical 20% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 60 thousand workers would support 20 factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 762 tons of goods per week.

At POP 6 (5,000,000) and a more typical 20% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 600 thousand workers would support 200 factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 7,615 tons of goods per week.

At POP 7 (50,000,000) and a modern 10% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 3 million workers would support 1000 factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 38,077 tons of goods per week.

At POP 8 (500,000,000) and a modern 10% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 30 million workers would support 10,000 factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 380,769 tons of goods per week.

At POP 9 (5,000,000,000) and a reasonable high 30% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 900 million workers would support 300,000 factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 11,423,077 tons of goods per week.

At POP 10 (50,000,000,000) and a reasonable high 30% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 9 billion workers would support 3 million factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 114,230,769 tons of goods per week.

Changing the Percentage of the population in Manufacturing might half or double the goods per week, but POP has orders of magnitude impacts on the availability of manufactured goods and the number of factories.

 

[jawillroy]

Population and Industry are linked.[/I]

I Love this, man. Fantastic!
I want to think up a table for this!

Because for a start, there's population's effect on industry.
Then what about tech? The output of a tech 11 world will be more efficient than that of a tech 6 world, no?

And then you have the question of government - might that dictatorship not have more people in the factories than the representative democracy? And what about the company-owned planet - surely that'll show a spike!

I've been futzing with a small-sandbox non-OTU TU lately and puzzling over what to do with a TL 11 world with a class A starport and a pop number 5: Non industrial!
(Copia A 664557 B Naval base, Ag Ni)

Building a starship strikes me as industrial a process as one might ask for; consequently I'm leaning towards the local production of starships here to be sharply limited - smaller hulls, low production numbers, a significant amount of offworld supply for materials and components. This, offset by a moderately high level of automation and relative affluence stemming from agricultural exports.

Looking at atpollard's model, this doesn't seem beyond the means of such a world, what do you think?

At POP 5 (500,000) and a more typical 20% of the workforce in Manufacturing, 60 thousand workers would support 20 factories (at 3 shifts) exporting 762 tons of goods per week[/I]

Further thoughts:
*The world in question, Copia, has the only A port within 2 jumps of a good third of its subsector; while the rest of the subsector has more sophisticated and less problematic class A ports, locally it's the only show in town.

*With Copia's agricultural surplus to export, there's a motivation to field a trade fleet and protect it: hence the naval base. I imagine a disproportionate percentage of the world's limited industry being focused on shipbuilding in order to protect and transport its bread and butter.

*In fact, looking at Copia's Feudal Technocratic government type, perhaps it's the shipbuilders, spacers and and merchants who hold the power - without them, the crops rot in the fields, but with the trade fleet in control of the local lanes Copia holds a monopoly of trade across six or seven worlds (all of which would be well cut off from trade, being utterly backwater systems in relation to the rest of the subsector)

 

[Fovean]

I think you’re on to something with the shipbuilders being in control of Copia’s trade surplus. Because they could also be building huge TL11 robotic combines that work the fields autonomously, putting every available Sophont on the ship/vehicle construction line.