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Inspired by US Naval Infantry

I just 'assumed' that ships troops were rnarines. GURPS Ground Forces states it as an OTU fact (if GURPS is OTU???)

Well a good example is the Fusiler-Marins of the french navy .. they are actual sailor's trained as Infantry. The French Marine units that are commonly talked about are the descendants of the Colonial Army.

Though the Fusiliers Marin are not organic to the ship's company it comes pretty close to description you are looking for in a present day context.

from Wiki-
The Fusiliers Marins (Naval Infantry) are units specialised in the protection and defence of key sites of the French Navy on land. They consist of about 1,800 men.

Their deployments include:

* One group(sized as battalion) in the naval station of Toulon and another the naval station of Brest, both with a "reinforcement and Intervention Group"(sized as a Company) to reinforce the protection of any particular building, place, or ship.
* Seven companies scattered around metropolitan territory: one in the naval station of Cherbourg, one in every site of the FOST (Île Longue, France-sud, Rosnay and Sainte Assise) and one on each of the naval air stations of Lann Bihoué and Nîmes-Garons.

They also protect the DOM/TOM where interarm transmission stations are located.

The missions of the Fusiliers Marins are

* missions on shores from the sea
* support of the commandos marine during special operations
* protection of sensitive sites of the Navy
* protection of the ships and security aboard.
* Military Instruction in French navy schools
 
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Another thought, and a counter to Xerxes in away. Anti-ship boarding parties sound great, but they're not very common these days are they? AFAIK frigates and destroyers don't routinely carry squads of marines ready for boarding actions. I suppose age of sail ships routinely changed hands in warfare once boarded.

Anti-ship boardings are a day-to-day occurrence. EVERY day, at least a dozen ships are boarded. But they generally have hove-to already. They are almost always civilian ships being boarded.

Heck, 1-3 a day in Alaskan waters alone.

Typically, it's done by the USCG... But the Navy also seconds some ships to the "War On Drugs" to assist in boardings. Always with a USCG MAA and/or boarding officer.
 
True again Xerxes.

I suppose I'm not after a simulation (which will be wrong anyway, this is hundreds of years in the future), but trying to capture some elements from modern day, and what I'm after here are the Persian Gulf board and search operations I've seen the Royal Navy do alot of. I really liked the RN crews in the documentaries I watched.

Another thing I want to getaway from, too, is the future military as 'modern US military'. And I get that vibe from alot of Traveller stuff, particularly earlier CT stuff. Part of ditching marines as do-all super-troopers is trying to distance myself from modern US organization and doctrine.

I talked with Major B about this too, and we discussed writing in an organisational or doctrinal fact that 'isn't efficient'. Just like RL. Everything's in flux, because stuff has to change for the next war ... so ... there might be abetter way to do something, but ... isn't that just reallife?

I mean, man, we have just ditched our entire Harrier fleet, but are waiting for 2 aircraft carriers to arrive. We will have no planes to put on them. Imagine THAT in the OTU, we'd have a field day with it !!! :)

I suppose part of the trouble is the (lack) of publicity that the Imperial army gets in traveller. almost every reference to ground troops i have seen in traveller, when it specifies the unit, is to marines. thier page on the traveller wiki, is, at the time of this post... 5 lines long.

5 lines.


anyway, onto your second point about a doctrinal oddity or two. heres a few off the top of my head:

1) the imperial navy, due to the nature of the imperium, does not control every jump capable warship in the imperium. as all planets are semi-independant, they are free to build and operate their own fleet.

this is like, for example manchester city council having its own private army, that doesn't answer to Westminster. thats a pretty big difference.







the above, is, as far as i know, how the 3I works.

anyway, my idea for Naval Infantry:

Naval Infantry (often reffered to as Ships Troops) are a semi-automous branch of the Marine Corps, with more in common with the Imperial Navy than the rest of the Marines. They have thier own training camps co-located with the navy training sites, with an emphasis on squad level training, boarding actions, and zero G combat, compared to the 'line' marines emphasis on large scale convetional warfare and planetry assults. thier is little lost love between the two, as the drop troops think the NI have the cushy desk job, while the NI think the drop troops hog all the glory.

A lot of the NI training is simmilar to modern counter terrorist building storming doctrine, but with less emphasis on avoiding potential civillian casualties. and more on effciently clearing a enclosed space quickly without exposing oneself. the NI enter rooms after a frag grenade, not a flashbang. rooms are cleared on the basis that anything living inside them is hostile until proven otherwise. Several ships have been taken by the NI decompression the whole ship one compartment at a time, fighting in hard vacumn. cutting of life support is another favoured trick, as the NI's extensive zero G training gives them an edge when the gravity is turned off.

The NI relies on this destructive, "shoot first, ask questions later" approach to deter potential resistance. Several previously obstinate free traders have suddenly become most co-operative when threatened with a NI boarding team.

while technically outside thier remit, the NI are often called upon to pull base guard duty on navy bases, as they are better equipped than line crewmen, and more available than regular marines or Army.

NI teams are ,relitivly, lightly armed, without the heavier firepowr of standard marine fireteams. Preffered weapons are still guass rifles, but supplmented with accelerator rifles for zero-G work, and a heavy load of grenades, breeching charges

the NI see themselves as an elite, though the rest of the Marine Corps dispute this. what is not disputed is that the average NI squad is better at small unit tactics than the average Marine fireteam. however, the average marine fireteam has much heavier firepower, and is better able to fit into a larger battleplan.
 
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I just 'assumed' that ships troops were rnarines. GURPS Ground Forces states it as an OTU fact (if GURPS is OTU???)

GT isn't the OTU, per se, but it's generally pretty close. In this case, Doug did his homework... but made some controversial decisions.

There are references in CT to marines being the ships troops in the OTU. Including Bk4, Kinunir, Lightning Class Cruisers, and T&G.

Bk4 (and MT Advanced Gen) both list marines as doing ship's troops duty... in about the same rates as mid-20th C USMC.


That Bk5 doesn't include naval infantry duty implies strongly that ST=Marines.

Now, if you're going to have naval infantry, you need to decide on the US or Soviet models. US, it's an assignment for Deck and Gunnery Depts. Soviet, it's a separate specialty but entirely under the naval command.
 
Sector Fleet also presents the Naval Regiment, which is essentially what the OP is referring to. In the TU described in Sector Fleet (OTU?) the Regiment is overshadowed by the Marines. A curiosity is that there are a small number of Imperial Army battalions that are actually Naval Regiment - Navy personnel organized like Army battalions. Most are infantry, but there are one (or two, I forget which) of artillery. These are historic formations that were created in response to crisis and remained as a unit in being ever since.

I find it interesting that, including the content of Sector Fleet, there is overlap between the Imperial Marines and the Imperial Navy in the following areas:

Gunnery - primarily Navy, but Marines on Ship's Troops assignment often fill this role as well.
Ship's Troops (boarding/landing parties) - primarily Marines; when marines are absent, Regiment, when Regiment is absent, Gunners. Sector Fleet specifically states that Gunners are trained for this duty.
Imperial Marine Commandos - primarily drawn from the Imperial Marines, as might be expected, but Regiment and Gunners are also eligible.

Optional rules dating back to the original print JTAS suggest that some Marines serve as Flight crew, primarily for landing craft and ground support craft, but also as fighter pilots in general. (Yes, this is especially "the US in space" in tone. It is optional...)
 
GT isn't the OTU, per se, but it's generally pretty close. In this case, Doug did his homework... but made some controversial decisions.

There are references in CT to marines being the ships troops in the OTU. Including Bk4, Kinunir, Lightning Class Cruisers, and T&G.

Bk4 (and MT Advanced Gen) both list marines as doing ship's troops duty... in about the same rates as mid-20th C USMC.


That Bk5 doesn't include naval infantry duty implies strongly that ST=Marines.

Now, if you're going to have naval infantry, you need to decide on the US or Soviet models. US, it's an assignment for Deck and Gunnery Depts. Soviet, it's a separate specialty but entirely under the naval command.

There are other models to use though. I do agree though that ship's troops traditionally means marines. From the age of sail to present.

Also the just to note the USMC dissolved the ship's detachments (save the nuclear weapons security on carriers)in 2001 siting the need for manpower to be re-allocated for ground operations.
 
I did mean 'contested' boarding actions, of which there are few.

Anti-ship boardings are a day-to-day occurrence. EVERY day, at least a dozen ships are boarded. But they generally have hove-to already. They are almost always civilian ships being boarded.
 
I just 'assumed' that ships troops were rnarines. GURPS Ground Forces states it as an OTU fact (if GURPS is OTU???)

An "alternate" OTU since the Emperor is not gunned down 1116. And quite a few things in ground forces are discussed (like all Marines getting BD training). It also has a lot more "US" in the Marines than say Mega or TNE
 
An "alternate" OTU since the Emperor is not gunned down 1116. And quite a few things in ground forces are discussed (like all Marines getting BD training). It also has a lot more "US" in the Marines than say Mega or TNE

I always looked at the Imperial Marines more as a Royal Marines... then the JTAS article made them more of an 'American' slant with flight/fighter wings.
 
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An "alternate" OTU since the Emperor is not gunned down 1116.
There's no call for quotation marks around the 'alternate'. The GTU is an alternate universe from the OTU. But one that is supposed to be indistinguishable from the OTU up to some undisclosed Change Point not too long prior to 1116. So anything described for the GTU that hasn't been affected by the change should be equally applicable to the OTU.

Of course, every new set of authors makes changes to the setting as they see fit and the GT authors were no different. But they were required to consider OTU material as canonical for the GTU. (Well, they were by the time I got involved in playtesting. There are some problems with the "backward compatibility" of the earliest books).


And quite a few things in ground forces are discussed (like all Marines getting BD training).
All Imperial marines. Nothing is said about ducal and planetary marine forces. ;)


Hans
 
All Imperial marines. Nothing is said about ducal and planetary marine forces. ;)


Hans

Except that we know no canon chargen for the OTU (rather than the GTU) that is "every marine in BD trained".

And the MT Addenda in TD 15 gives every marine Drop Ops, not BD... But they do get Vacc-0.

The GTU all-in-BD-IMC is a Lorenism. No OTU-based ruleset supports it in CGen prior to GT. Nor does MGT nor T5 require it.

Defaults...
CT: Nope. LBlade. They can get Vacc Suit... And unless using Bk4, can't get BDress skill, and Vacc 1 is required to wear BD.
MT: Nope.
TNE: No IMC in CGen. It's RC Marines.
T4: Nope, but it's also a TL12 IMC...
MGT: nope, but it's available.

T20: Permits, but doesn't require, marines to have BD feat.
GT: All have half-a-point or more.
HT: Required PS.
 
Except that we know no canon chargen for the OTU (rather than the GTU) that is "every marine in BD trained".

And the MT Addenda in TD 15 gives every marine Drop Ops, not BD... But they do get Vacc-0.

The GTU all-in-BD-IMC is a Lorenism. No OTU-based ruleset supports it in CGen prior to GT. Nor does MGT nor T5 require it.
There's a CT article that says the same thing. Setting material vs. game rules. Apparently the game rules are faulty on that point. But then, the game rules supposedly cover every generic marine force in Charted Space.

Mind you, this isn't one of the setting details I feel a great deal of commitment to. I just don't see what it would hurt to adopt it. Give those Imperial Marines their BD training already. And if you want marines without BD training, just use ducal or planetary forces. Or if you want an Ex-Imperial Marine without BD training, just assume that he has gotten rusty and forgotten too much. After all, every PC is an ex-something. If he learnt it 20 years ago and never used it, why shouldn't he have forgotten it?

I'm much more unhappy about the whole "when the Marines arrive, the party is over" schtick. That makes Imperial Marines pretty much useless to me as a GM. Unless I want to end the party, I have to make sure the Marines don't arrive.


Hans
 
I just 'assumed' that ships troops were rnarines. GURPS Ground Forces states it as an OTU fact (if GURPS is OTU???)

Yeah but isn't that the same book/rules that says ALL marines are BD trained and equipped :smirk:

I don't agree with that either :devil:

Which is not to say it's wrong. It isn't. At least not for GURPS. There's an OTU for every set of rules, and multiples for some depending on your stock of sources and interpretation.

So, my OTU (what remains OTU and is not supplanted by MTU additions/refinements) is not Marines as Ship's Troops nor all* BD bad boys.

* a very large percentage perhaps, even possibly most, they are selected from the cream with an eye to that, at least in MTU (with the Army taking the leavings, and occassionally sneaking some cream themselves)

...for what all that is worth :)
 
I spent several years in the US Navy. Our Ship's Troops were 2nd class Po's and 3rd class mostly from different division's in weapons department. Their job was ship board Security. There was also a ships self defense force lead by the Gunnery Officer and the Chief Gunners Mate. the fire teams in the SDF where lead by gunners mates. the bulk of the Defense force were unrated crew men. the ship Defense force was tasked with boarding actions ours never had to.
 
Yeah but isn't that the same book/rules that says ALL marines are BD trained and equipped :smirk:

I don't agree with that either :devil:
Trained, yes. Does it say that they're always equipped with BD? I don't think so. If it does, I certainly also disagree with that.

Which is not to say it's wrong. It isn't. At least not for GURPS. There's an OTU for every set of rules, and multiples for some depending on your stock of sources and interpretation.
IMO it is wrong if it's wrong in the OTU and right if it's right in the OTU. And vice versa. Unless you think that Strephon (or someone else with the authority to do so) ordered a revision of Imperial Marine training in 1116. But no; the CT article we have that says the same thing applies to conditions in 1107. That would be in both the OTU and the GTU.


Hans
 
I spent several years in the US Navy. Our Ship's Troops were 2nd class Po's and 3rd class mostly from different division's in weapons department. Their job was ship board Security. There was also a ships self defense force lead by the Gunnery Officer and the Chief Gunners Mate. the fire teams in the SDF where lead by gunners mates. the bulk of the Defense force were unrated crew men. the ship Defense force was tasked with boarding actions ours never had to.

I don't know when you left the service, but after the USS Cole there was a keenly renewed interested in small arms training and ship's security against asymmetrical threats.
 
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