Ironmongery Weapons technology development

[tbeard1999]

Whipsnade said:"Everything is always In You Traveller Universe. You can use, ignore, fold, spindle, mutilate, and even import nonsensical WH40K weapons into YTU as much as you want."

Actually, I have never played W40K. Do they use a bolter like ours? Is it any good? We have been using spiker/bolter weapons for the Aslan since the early 80s.

It might help if you told us what a "bolter" is in your campaign.

In WH40K, it's just a kewl term for a chemically propelled smallarm. You know, what we call a "gun" in the early 21st century.

I'd note that AFAIK, WH40K is the only set of modern rules that use the term "bolter", "bolt-gun" etc. So I think that Whipsnade could be forgiven for assuming that you meant the WH40K weapon.

By the way, I first saw the term used in "Laserburn" and its expansions, a sort of proto-WH40K rules set produced in the late 1970s.

 

[mbrinkhues]

If one want's to assigne a "special" weapon to each human race then the question is "who benefits from what". So:

+ The Zhos with their Teleporters want a weapon that is silent but has some punch. So I'd see them using lasers as the "signature weapon"

+ The Vilanies have this huge empire and may want a weapon that is easily supplied and can offer different modes (kill, stun). So we give them the Gauss-Rifle

+ The Solomanie are the "Have club, will use" guys of the game. So give them something rugged and useabel - The ACR. This also fits history since most money would have gone into starship research in the Interstellar War era and a good old slugthrower kills Vilanie just fine

+ Aslan with their duelling culture and build-in knive don't get a signature weapon. They already have the Dew-Claw

+ Vagrs get whatever they can capture. If the need a signature weapon I suggest the Cutlass

+ Swordies get outfitted like Sollies. Horned Helmets and two handed Danish Axes are optional

+ Darrians get cotton dabbers. After all they are threatening everyone with a weapon that does not exist for most of the time (Startrigger)

+ Syleans get the most develish weapon of them all - The Diplomat Self-Deploying Offensive weapon

 

[Shadowfax]

If one want's to assigne a "special" weapon to each human race then the question is "who benefits from what". So:

+ The Zhos with their Teleporters want a weapon that is silent but has some punch. So I'd see them using lasers as the "signature weapon"

---------------------Yeah, that is what we said too, but we also gave them the gauss rifle. They use smaller calibers than the Aslan, Sols and SWders.

+ The Vilanies have this huge empire and may want a weapon that is easily supplied and can offer different modes (kill, stun). So we give them the Gauss-Rifle

---------------------Yes, we gave them both lasers and gauss rifles. We figured that there was some parallel independent development going on here. The Imperials have Gauss rifles that have generally higher penetration at effective (short) ranges that drops off later on. Whereas the Zhos have a weaker penetration value, but that penetration remains more stable than an imperial weapon of the same tech level over the three ranges (effective, long & extreme).

+ The Solomanie are the "Have club, will use" guys of the game. So give them something rugged and useabel - The ACR. This also fits history since most money would have gone into starship research in the Interstellar War era and a good old slugthrower kills Vilanie just fine

----------------Our thoughts exactly.

+ Aslan with their duelling culture and build-in knive don't get a signature weapon. They already have the Dew-Claw

----------------We gave them spikers and bolters in addition. A spiker is just like a big nail gun. It was used for dueling or wars of assassins since Aslan time immemorial and thus survived as a weapon much longer than was pragmatic. Spikers have terribly short range, but good penetration at that short range. They are based on a technology that is similar to the gauss field, but the Aslan never developed it further. Spikers are on the scene at tech 5, and are used (because they are traditional weapons - like samurai swords would be) up until tech 13 (max Aslan) even though they are already obsolete by tech 5.

-----------------The bolters are a type of limited plasma weapon. They fire a plasma that in turn transports a dense solid shot piggy-back-style in a gravetic containment field. When the round hits something it depolarizes and the round stops transferring all its kinetic energy. Then there is the afterburn from the plasma stream. Bolters are incredibly deadly at short range, but they are inaccurate, they overheat quickly, they have no range and they sometimes have the tendency to blow-up, wounding, maiming or even killing the shooter. Bolters are supplanted by lasers at tech 8, but they, like other Aslan weapons, hang on for a while, because they have become "traditional" too.

+ Vagrs get whatever they can capture. If the need a signature weapon I suggest the Cutlass

-----------------We gave our Vargr blaster technology. We said that the Zhos invented blasters, but gave to the Vargr, because the Zhos developed the laser and found it was better. The Vargr take the blaster use it until tech 13 or so, when lasers finally supplant blasters in the Extents. Blasters work a bit like bolters in reverse. The blaster fires a round that contains a plasma held in a gravetic field. When the round hits the field drops and the plasma explodes. Its like a big HE round. So here the round carries the plasma and with the bolter its the other way around.

--------------Other than that our vargr also get an eclectic mix of weapons.

+ Swordies get outfitted like Sollies. Horned Helmets and two handed Danish Axes are optional

----------------Yep, same with us, but we said they got blasters from the Vargr and Lasers and Gauss rifles from the Zhos as well.

+ Darrians get cotton dabbers. After all they are threatening everyone with a weapon that does not exist for most of the time (Startrigger)

---------------------We gave our Darrians a good mix of blasters. Darrian blasters are much better than the Zhodani/Vargr blasters b/c they are like tech 16 leftovers, but there aren't many to go around. Otherwise the Darrians have the usual mix of slug-throwers and lasers.

+ Syleans get the most develish weapon of them all - The Diplomat Self-Deploying Offensive weapon

----------------Syleans don't appear much in our campaigns.

 

[Shadowfax]

It might help if you told us what a "bolter" is in your campaign.

------------------It is a plasma that carries a dense solid shot round encased in a magnetic containment field. The plasma acts like a waterside for the round. Propelling it albeit somewhat inaccurately to the target. When the round hits something the magnetic containment field protecting the metal shot depolarizes and disappears. The solid round transfers a lot of kinetic energy to the target and the plasma burns the target. Bolters are only effective at very short ranges. They have a few nasty side effects like overheating and occasionally exploding. In addition, they are supplanted by lasers a starting around tech 8. The bolter, like the Aslan spiker, is still encountered up into tech 13, because of the Aslan tendency to use "traditional" weapons in combat. The bolter attains this "traditional" status at sometime and thus remains on the field of battle longer than is pragmatic.

----------------------We realize that the technology is a bit "zaptrony", but we don't see the need to explain everything. It is just something that the Aslan developed. It is a precursor to the laser and the plasma gun and is the reason why the Aslan go on to produce their own lasers and plasma guns - a parallel development to Solomani, Vilani and Zhodani Lasers etc. Its supposed to be a realistic traveller-style technology, but we all know it is a bit sketchy. WE just figured it would be strange if everyone had developed the same weapons systems parallel to each other. Ya know?

------------------Bolters show up early at tech 6 and are another reason why the Aslan have a bit of a technological edge over their human counterparts during the interstellar wars. By the advent of lasers at tech 8 the bolter is obsolete, but the "tradition-minded" Aslan continue to use it.

In WH40K, it's just a kewl term for a chemically propelled smallarm. You know, what we call a "gun" in the early 21st century.

----------------------- IC

I'd note that AFAIK, WH40K is the only set of modern rules that use the term "bolter", "bolt-gun" etc. So I think that Whipsnade could be forgiven for assuming that you meant the WH40K weapon.

------------------I didn't feel offended, so there is no offense, and thus no need to forgive. I like whipsnade's comments. He keeps me in line with regard to realism. I hope none of you guys take me too seriously?

-----------------My guys like "realism" in the game or maybe it would be better to say that they "think" they like realism in the game. Of course, everyone's boundaries of game-realism are different. The bolter thing is about as far out on a limb as they would go.

------------------ I had heard of Warhammer, but not of Warhammer 40k. I thought you meant the Fantasy miniatures game. I didn't realize that there were now Space ORks and all that jazz! Its kinda Kewl. I have been in my own world which unfortunately hasn't allowed me to concentrate much time on my favorite hobby. I don't know how I missed it. I started looking at their websites the other day. It looks kinda cool, but as I recall I didn't like something about their engine in the fantasy game. I was kinda pissed at warhammer, because for a while there every damned hobby shop I went into was full of their fantasy minis. It was that and Poki-Mon. I figured gaming was dead and stopped going into hobby shops. At least hobby shops in the US. Italian Hobbyshops are the coolest! They have everything! It reminds me of hobby shops as they were when I started playing AD&D back in the 70s. (Whoops, I let something slip there!) = )

By the way, I first saw the term used in "Laserburn" and its expansions, a sort of proto-WH40K rules set produced in the late 1970s.

--------------------Wow! So this 40k thing has been around that long? The first time that I heard of the fantasy thing was in the late 80s early 90s. I didn't know much about it as we were playing mêlée. Some of the crew also played AD&D, but we made fun of them for it as much as possible! ; - )

-------------------I didn't even know about the the sci-fi Warhammer thing. (head in the sand) I must have been seeing their stuff and thinking it was all just that warhammer game. I have to admit that space Orks have possibilities, but not in traveller. Not for me anyway. = )

 

[tbeard1999]

A general comment regarding "racial" weapons...

I think that most "racial" weapons would be obsolete weapons retained for ceremonial purposes. Or retained by races that haven't had much recent combat experience.

At least in the kinds of universes implied by Traveller.

This is because Traveller has a fairly clear superiority taxonomy with weaponry. In general, later tech weapons are better than earlier tech weapons of the same class. So, the Gauss Rifle is better than the ACR, which is better than the assault rifle. Lasers are generally better than ACRs, except with specialized anti-laser armor (and are considerably bulkier).

Seems to me that technology is technology, no matter who develops it. Thus, a race will transition from assault rifles to ACRs to Gauss Rifles, as it develops technologically, because each weapon is significantly superior to previous ones.

And there's little logical reason to assume that Race X has inherently better ACRs than Race Y. And even if Race X does find a way to make better ACRs, there seems little sensible reason for Race Y not to simply duplicate this better way. (Excepting things like economics, lack of manufacturing capacity, etc.).

I've never found convincing the notion that races would eschew better weaponry simply because they didn't invent it (or because of "tradition" or somesuch). IMHO sane beings won't generally retain an obsolete or ineffective weapon for long merely for tradition's sake, especially if that race is actively engaged in wartime. And such races won't last long if they are in competition with more adaptible foes.

Of course, there *are* valid reasons such weapons might be retained:

--Economics. Insufficient money (or industrial capacity) to replace the old gear.

--Priority. Lesser troops often have older gear.

--A genuine lack of agreement that the current gear is actually inferior. As noted, though, a real war will very quickly disabuse a race of such a position.

And maybe "tradition" is a plausible rationale -- but only if there's been no recent opportunity to demonstrate that traditional gear is inferior.

 

[sabredog]

There is also the old adage that countries prepare to fight the next war with the way they fought the last. So if the were successful in the last war they might not feel the need to experiment and re-equip with new technology, while the losers will be more likely to try to get set up with what the winners had.

There are always exceptions, but for the most part real innovation doesn't seem to come during peacetime so much as during, or shortly after, a conflict. So if ACR's have been working fine then that race might think there isn't any real need to change.

But sticking with something just for tradition's sake except for ceremonial or ritualized combat doesn't make sense. Maybe for Klingons in Star Trek, but then they never exactly won any wars that way either.

But I could see where some traditional melee weapon might have usefulness in actual combat. Ghurka kukris are one example - just remember that the Ghurka still used a rifle first. Officers have always carried swords or handguns as symbols of thier rank in many a military and this would also be an apprpriate way to use a "traditional" racial-specific weapon. Same with ceremonial guards - just look at the Vatican's Swiss Guards.

But for everyday grunt work I see the loser of the last war trying to get a leg up technologically on the winner, while the winner probably figures "We handed them their butts last time with the ACR so we don't need no stinking gauss rifles."

 

[mbrinkhues]

Well there are some reasons to retain older weapons:

+ Logistics

Some weapons are easier to supply/maintain in the field, even more so if you plan to attack rather then defend. Defenders OTOH can do with more complex systems quite often since they have the shorter logistic lines

+ No benefit

Sure the Gaus-Rifle may be lighter, same for it's ammo. But when your average Soldier ist 190cm/120kg/all muscle that might not be a big enough benefit. History has examples (Sowjet tanks are build for small crews, the USSR with a long conscript time had enough of those, Germanies GPMG that assumed it's conscript forces would provide enough Infantrymen capabel of lugging 12+ kg of Rheinmetall around etc(1))


(1) No yoke, when Rheinmetall offered a lighter version of the MG42/59 it was rejected in the 1960s

 

[tbeard1999]

Well there are some reasons to retain older weapons:

I agree completely. But my point was that "tradition" isn't really a very plausible reason to retain inferior/obsolete weaponry. Unless, of course, there's a plausible reason for the race to be unaware that the weapon is obsolete (no recent military experience, etc.).

 

[Shadowfax]

A general comment regarding "racial" weapons...

I think that most "racial" weapons would be obsolete weapons retained for ceremonial purposes. Or retained by races that haven't had much recent combat experience.

At least in the kinds of universes implied by Traveller.

This is because Traveller has a fairly clear superiority taxonomy with weaponry. In general, later tech weapons are better than earlier tech weapons of the same class. So, the Gauss Rifle is better than the ACR, which is better than the assault rifle. Lasers are generally better than ACRs, except with specialized anti-laser armor (and are considerably bulkier).

Seems to me that technology is technology, no matter who develops it. Thus, a race will transition from assault rifles to ACRs to Gauss Rifles, as it develops technologically, because each weapon is significantly superior to previous ones.

And there's little logical reason to assume that Race X has inherently better ACRs than Race Y. And even if Race X does find a way to make better ACRs, there seems little sensible reason for Race Y not to simply duplicate this better way. (Excepting things like economics, lack of manufacturing capacity, etc.).

I've never found convincing the notion that races would eschew better weaponry simply because they didn't invent it (or because of "tradition" or somesuch). IMHO sane beings won't generally retain an obsolete or ineffective weapon for long merely for tradition's sake, especially if that race is actively engaged in wartime. And such races won't last long if they are in competition with more adaptible foes.

Of course, there *are* valid reasons such weapons might be retained:

--Economics. Insufficient money (or industrial capacity) to replace the old gear.

--Priority. Lesser troops often have older gear.

--A genuine lack of agreement that the current gear is actually inferior. As noted, though, a real war will very quickly disabuse a race of such a position.

And maybe "tradition" is a plausible rationale -- but only if there's been no recent opportunity to demonstrate that traditional gear is inferior.

Yes, I was just talking about general trends. I wanted to ID the race that developed a particular weapon at a particular tech level and for the tech level of "emergence" at least give them the advantage in producing that weapon.

I think that there is an argument for a race to lag in the production of a certain weapon. Like lets say the Vilani develop the Gauss Rifle at tech 12, maybe the Vargr don't get around to producing their own model until Tech 13. Sure the Vargr can buy tech 12 Gauss rifles from the imperium, but they don't produce one of their own right away.

Of course, I have to admit that I do not fully understand how tech levels are supposed to work across time in the TU. Maybe it is just that the Imperium reaches an average TL of 12 when the Vargr are at an average TL of 10 and when the Vargr reach 12 they get the Gauss rifle too. I think that was how it was supposed to be wasn't it? I mean the Imperium was certainly always not at tech 15, so what were they before the present day?

I also see the military having the highest tech level. The Imperial army will be tech 13-15 across the board. The Imperial marines will be tech 14-15. The colonial systems' armies could be as low as tech 6.

 

[sabredog]

You know....you could also just have it that Imperial law forbids the sale of certain weapon technologies to other races in order to maintain a leg up in TL in case of a fight.

Like the way there are export versions of weapons sold today by some countries to their allies that are not as good in some ways (usually in avioncs, countermeasures, or weaponry) as the stuff the seller keeps for themselves.

The Soviets would sell tons of stripped down MiG-21's (and others like the 29A, etc.) to other countries, as well as equip their "allies" in the Warsaw Pact with less capable or obsolete weapon systems while keeping first line gear for themselves.

So maybe the vargr in your universe get one kind of weapon because the Imperials don't use it anymore and won't allow the vargr to make anything better. This sort of thing also means there are plenty of adventure seeds for smuggling, industrial spying, bribery, etc. for players to get involved in.

 

[Shadowfax]

You know....you could also just have it that Imperial law forbids the sale of certain weapon technologies to other races in order to maintain a leg up in TL in case of a fight. .

Yes, I am sure that they do not do much trading with the Solimani, Zhodani, Sword Worlds or Vargr, but I am also sure that (just like in the real world) weapons are proliferated. It probably just creates a "tech lag" of a couple to a few tech levels.

Like the way there are export versions of weapons sold today by some countries to their allies that are not as good in some ways (usually in avioncs, countermeasures, or weaponry) as the stuff the seller keeps for themselves.

The Soviets would sell tons of stripped down MiG-21's (and others like the 29A, etc.) to other countries, as well as equip their "allies" in the Warsaw Pact with less capable or obsolete weapon systems while keeping first line gear for themselves.
.

Yes, the US does this too.

So maybe the vargr in your universe get one kind of weapon because the Imperials don't use it anymore and won't allow the vargr to make anything better. This sort of thing also means there are plenty of adventure seeds for smuggling, industrial spying, bribery, etc. for players to get involved in.

Yeah, I agree, but I also bet the Vargr are also a bit like the Chinese. They probably get a weapon reverse engineer it and come up with their own mass produced version, at least within their clan. There are probably some clans who have a competitive advantage over other clans at doing this kind of copying. I would also bet that the Vargr or at least some of the clans that were or are (depending on the date) part of the Outworld Coalition would get weapons from the Zhodani. At least it's reasonable to assume that.

 

[Ptah]

I like the idea of different species or polities favoring different weapons for traditional, doctrinal and/or logistical reasons. These ideas seem pretty solid science-wise as I'll explain.

Well, our blasters use technology that allows a solid shot round to be "piggybacked" on a plasma "packet". They are hard hitting and do a lot of damage, but suffer at long and extreme range.

Two ways to look at this. (1) For the solid shot to be pulled by the plasma this would be a more advanced weapon than the stock plasma rifle. The loss of energy in the closed plasma EM field to pull anything along would be significant. OR (2) The solid shot helps stabalize the plasma containment field, making this a lower tech weapon than stock plasma rifles. (2) is the clearly more hard sci-fi choice.
Either way I can see the hard hitting short range weapon you describe. You can also make the closed field hard to maintain in a fast palsma to get those slow moving blaster bolts you see in Star Wars, or the PPG bolts in B5.

The Bolters are similar, but work the other way around. They are a solid shot containing a stabilized plasma. When they hit a target or reach a specified range the EM field in the round becomes unstable and lets the plasma out - boom!

A lower tech plasma weapon. The containment means these will be long range and since it is solid you don't get that pesky glowing tracer trail to your firing location. But having less plasma (and damage) for a given caliber compared to a blaster.

We have the Aslan using bolters and spikers - basically a low tech nailgun with an energy field that helps them penetrate.

Like the spiker a low tech, short range gauss weapon. I can see it requiring extensive training, like the longbow, to use well. Something an Aslan would take pride in.

We have the Zohdani pioneering the blaster weapons, but giving them up in favor of lasers.

Why? I guess it depends on stats, but for an elite teleporting force they would seem to be a logistic win over plasma and lasers, who need range,

The Vargr pick the blaster up from the Zhos and carry it further - using blasters more than lasers.

Seems good for pirating, lots of blaster bolts raining down on you makes for more fear and better suppression fire. At least against civies.

...The Darrian blasters are the best, but unfortunately no one - not even the Darrians really know exectly how/why they work. It was part of their tech 16 technology that got "lost". As a result Darrian blasters are in short supply and are highly prized having nearly an artifact reputation.

Something in the plasma field generators that allows for denser and higher velocity plasmas. The bolts are so fast they look like lasers perhaps. Something in the harware and software, you fiddle with it too much or try to reverse engineer it, things get screwed up. Tuning the things is more an art than science. .. Just riffing off this idea. I see many adventure seeds here....

...What can I say? We're nutz! = )

In a good way.