It's Not Canon!

[Tiikeri]

Major/minor race is a racist tool to subjugate and belittle - which is why the Vilani invented it and the Syleans continued it as a means to confirm their ascendancy.

Seems like a decently accurate judgement neutral descriptor for the political environment at the time the vilani invented it.

Other possible descriptions the vilani could have come up with:

People who have reached our level of technological achievement and people who havent, and who probably aren't going to.

People we have to take seriously, and people we don't.

People who have the potential to effectively resist us, and people who dont.


Is it really racist, or is it based on one technological-scientific-industrial achievement? Either a race accomplished it or not. Doesn't matter what their biology is.

It's not racist to say Vargr are prone to being swayed by charisma, kkree are claustrophobic, and hivers are afraid of close combat, because they are. It's not racist to say the Ael Yael are a minor race because they are. There are canon traveller races who will never amount to anything on the galactic stage, and the vilani were accurate to call them minor.

What would be racist is if a race did achieve jump drive on its own and the vilani said well no, you're not major because of your biology even though you passed the test, and that would be one instance of racial discrimination rather than an invalidation of an objective standard.

 

[Tiikeri]

WH40K: what to do with your upcoming Traveller minis game when GDW pulls your license...

Highly interesting, im going to read more about that.

 

[Hyphen]

If Mike doesn't mind, I'll borrow his reply.

Longer answer time:
1. Spacecraft under 100 tons can't jump
No spacecraft can jump. starships on the other hand can. The question is can you build starships less than 100t? Once you ban this then several Traveller rule sets have rules that do not apply to the setting.

I go with the "Clarke's Law" option.
http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/jumptorp.htm

2. Almost all Aslan art has the hands and paws wrong.
Agree, and a lot of it gets their faces wrong by making them too cat/lion like. They only have a superficial resemblance to lions.

+1.

3. All the (6) major races are identified. Don't add another one.
Agree and refer back to my earlier post concerning the nature of the major/minor distinction and the existance of vastly more powerful races out there.

+1.

4. The Primordials/Sparklers are not what Joe Fugate wanted them to be.
The baddies from the core plot line died with DGP's involvement with MT, that doesn't mean the primordials/sparklers have to be erased from Knightfall and disappear from canon.

Exactly. I think they were what Joe wanted them to be. It's the re-imagined Empress Wave "Baddies from the core" that are not the same thing.

5. Light sabers and Ansibles don't exist.

I've allowed one sabre into a very old campign, as an extremely rare, high-tech, pre-Maghiz Darrian piece (after all, their manipulation of gravity is legendary). With that restriction, it's not a game-breaking device.

Ansible - probably not below TL 35.

6. Behind the Claw's aliens are non-canonical.
I don't consider anything in BtC to be canonical for the OTU setting.

Hey - Tavonni's write-up is spot-on! ;-)

 

[mike wightman]

Don't mind at all

By the way have you noticed the mistakes on the page you linked to?

I do like the idea of the jump torps in A4 being experimental...

 

[whartung]

Light sabres are too iconic for another franchise

Light sabres are just plain dangerous.

You think lawn darts are bad, wait until your kids play with a light saber. I wouldn't trust anyone with one. How many burned walls, table, chairs, and scarred arms and legs, burnt pants and shirts. Just insane.

Longer answer time:
2. Almost all Aslan art has the hands and paws wrong.
Agree, and a lot of it gets their faces wrong by making them too cat/lion like. They only have a superficial resemblance to lions.

Are there any of these correct renderings available as an example?

Any links to a proper Aslan rendition?

 

[Ulsyus]

Really good point about setting versus rules. I mean it. I wasn't consciously dividing between the two.

I intended to speak to setting canon -- that's where all the kerfuffle is, as far as I know.


Frankly, I think perhaps ALL canon issues have to do with the OTU, rather than Traveller. Even jump torpedoes. Am I wrong?

Setting and system are intertwined, and all that's inthe 1100s OTU setting is derived from the system as it stood back in CT-time. Once you add in the tech possibilities from the BBB then the possible variations in the setting increase. That doesn't mean however that the 1100s OTU has to change, just that the number and range of things which can happen in it increase.


I still refer back to the Keith and DGP illustrations of Aslan when they turn up in a game. Those weren't too bad. The MgT supplement is in my opinion at the end of the other side of the spectrum, which is a pity given the effort that went into them.

 

[ManOfGrey]

Forgive me for asking, but I'm curious. What did you learn?

First of all, please allow me to apologize for posting this question, more or less, twice. But robject recently conducted two different polls regarding canon in the OTU, presumably looking for two different answers.

Now moving on. Some things Marc has repeatedly said are NOT canon. Now brainstorm and vote on what might NOT be canon for Traveller. By voting, we take the temperature of the grognards. This is a useful exercise.

So...what is the temperature of the grognards, robject? What did you find out? Now that this poll has had over a week to circulate, and now that you have data...was your original thesis validated? Or did you find out something that you might not have suspected?

And how is this conclusion different from the one conducted in the other, but very similar poll, regarding canon in the OTU?

 

[Adam Dray]

So...what is the temperature of the grognards, robject? What did you find out?

And I hope you take that orally.

 

[robject]

I learned how to ask questions just a little better

 

[creativehum]

Is it really racist, or is it based on one technological-scientific-industrial achievement? Either a race accomplished it or not. Doesn't matter what their biology is.

Marc Miller said it was racist in an interview. I'll leave it ot others discuss whether he's is right:

Miller expressed a similar idea with the Imperium's Major and Minor Races. "The Traveller universe chronicled six Major Races that dominated charted space, and lots of minor races that were inferior in influence or power. The game spent three or four years detailing this institutionalized racism throughout the universe, and then began to show the fallacies of the concept. We showed there wasn't even firm agreement on which Six Races were members of the Major Race concept. Then we revealed that one of the Major Races (the Aslan) didn't meet the criteria we had previously stated.

"So we were showing an institutionalized racism as part of the all-pervasive culture of the future, and getting players to buy into it as part of this fictional universe, and after they did, tearing it down and showing its flaws."

Something a lot of people glide over is that GDW related a lot of information from within the fictional stance of the setting, not from an objective neutral point-of-view from the publisher.

What is true or not true is sometimes up for grabs because the "sources" within the setting have their own specific, limited agendas. This served two purposes:
• It let Marc poke at issues he cared about.
• It let the Referee rules how the universe really worked as he wished and needed. This is great for Referees who know they will ultimately have to make their own setting when the rule books hit the table. It is bad for people who want a consistent, everything-fits-together setting from the publisher.

 

[Tiikeri]

That's it then. The next paragraph is interesting too.

 

[Condottiere]

This Major and minor Race stuff is more about how these polities view themselves and interact with others.

A recent example would be the Chinese Communist Party becoming nationalistic, and yet somehow trying to create the impression that they are the legitimate successors to five thousand years of Chinese culture and imperium, with all that is due to that legacy, territorially and respectfully.

 

[aramis]

What is true or not true is sometimes up for grabs because the "sources" within the setting have their own specific, limited agendas. This served two purposes:
• It let Marc poke at issues he cared about.
• It let the Referee rules how the universe really worked as he wished and needed. This is great for Referees who know they will ultimately have to make their own setting when the rule books hit the table. It is bad for people who want a consistent, everything-fits-together setting from the publisher.

It also fed the fires of fanwankery on the TML and XBML, and to an extent, here...
(Aside to self... perhaps I should add wanker to the blackout list)

 

[creativehum]

That's it then. The next paragraph is interesting too.

Thanks for that. I mean the to grab that second paragraph and have edited the previous post.

 

[Jame]

I voted for the first two.

For the rest … if a GM wants them to be canon, they are, for his game. Marc Miller et al would probably be more interested in us having fun with the game.

 

[Hyphen]

Don't mind at all

By the way have you noticed the mistakes on the page you linked to?

I do like the idea of the jump torps in A4 being experimental...

Mistakes? ... er, that's more like me rapidly scribbling down answers into a web page, and being too slack to go back and fix it...

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

I intended to speak to setting canon -- that's where all the kerfuffle is, as far as I know.

There's a fine line between all of it, about which few fans will willingly agree. MWM is always the tiebreaker when he thinks it is important enough to say something. Otherwise, it's basically anything goes.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Canon

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Traveller_Ethos

Frankly, I think perhaps ALL canon issues have to do with the OTU, rather than Traveller. Even jump torpedoes. Am I wrong?

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Jump_Torpedo

Great discussion. Thank you for starting it.

Shalom,
M.

 

[dalthor]

From the CANON page on the wiki --

There are only six major races within Charted Space, and they are all identified. Don't add another one.


To me, the key words there are within Charted Space

To be honest, I figure I've never been 100% within Canon; my personal thoughts, opinions, and ideas were present from the second I first learned Traveller existed.

My crew and I changed a LOT of things within our campaigns over the years, at times with major retcons required. We adapted based on what worked for us at that moment in time, and it came down to one basic premise for all of us -- HAVE FUN!

We had our disagreements, and at times went WAY outside Canon, but ultimately, every one of the items in this poll existed in one or more of our campaigns. And probably will long into the future.

I looked at the poll items, and even now I'm arguing with myself over what I should select. Dang!

 

[Timerover51]

As far as the OTU is concerned, I voted with not adding another major race, although I have a very dim view of including the K'kree in the equation.

For what I am doing with my own sector, I have at least two other vanished races with interstellar ability, the Krell from the movie "Forbidden Planet" and Andre Norton's "Bald Space Rovers", aka "The Baldies". I am trying to figure out how to add Norton's "Forerunners" without having problems with copyright. There are some ruins of those in the area as well. I am not adding another current interstellar race to the equation, preferring to allow for lots of exploration in the sector.

Jump Torpedoes are used by the Rim Scouts for initial reports on a new star system prior to trying to land anywhere. They are a one use item, and have a distressing tendency to explode if someone tries to recover them. The explosions tend to be a bit violent. They also are periodically the last report of a Scout that runs into something unexpected.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

To be honest, I figure I've never been 100% within Canon; my personal thoughts, opinions, and ideas were present from the second I first learned Traveller existed.

My crew and I changed a LOT of things within our campaigns over the years, at times with major retcons required. We adapted based on what worked for us at that moment in time, and it came down to one basic premise for all of us -- HAVE FUN!

We had our disagreements, and at times went WAY outside Canon, but ultimately, every one of the items in this poll existed in one or more of our campaigns. And probably will long into the future.

I looked at the poll items, and even now I'm arguing with myself over what I should select. Dang!

Enjoy, Dalthor! That is as it should be.

Shalom,
M.