It does, it does.
It's Not Canon!
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
It does, it does.
And, if all else fails, you can always LARP your way through a light saber duel, as per this guy.
As per forum policy the following link is to a safe-for-work video that gives us the legendary "Star Wars' kid" doing his impression of Darth Maul, minus the make up, and perhaps with a few more pounds around his girth.
https://youtu.be/HPPj6viIBmU
As per forum policy the following link is to a safe-for-work video that gives us the legendary "Star Wars' kid" doing his impression of Darth Maul, minus the make up, and perhaps with a few more pounds around his girth.
https://youtu.be/HPPj6viIBmU
BackworldTraveller
SOC-13
1) Isn't canon just a weapon for telling someone they are wrong. I though Weaponised Theology was banned on this site anyway.
2) Which canon? Even canon isn't canon - it changes over time. e.g. look at SOC inflation that has occurred in Spinward March/Regina over time as additional layers have appeared. More Dukes in the Duchy of Regina than you can shake a stick at!
3) Who needs a light-sabre...At TL-16 you can alter the nuclear forces so things just fall apart without all that heat and light!
4) The Humans in the OTU aren't what anyone expected them to be in the 1970s so why would any other race
5) Is the 100 dton limit on jumping because you can't get a smaller grid (that is no longer the only drive type anyway) or because you can't get a smaller drive (well that limits the ship anyway but it does still have a lower limit that 100 dTons). Smaller than 100 dTons and you have a problem of cost-effectiveness.
6) Any aliens are useful for ideas. You can always ignore the ones you hate.
2) Which canon? Even canon isn't canon - it changes over time. e.g. look at SOC inflation that has occurred in Spinward March/Regina over time as additional layers have appeared. More Dukes in the Duchy of Regina than you can shake a stick at!
3) Who needs a light-sabre...At TL-16 you can alter the nuclear forces so things just fall apart without all that heat and light!
4) The Humans in the OTU aren't what anyone expected them to be in the 1970s so why would any other race
5) Is the 100 dton limit on jumping because you can't get a smaller grid (that is no longer the only drive type anyway) or because you can't get a smaller drive (well that limits the ship anyway but it does still have a lower limit that 100 dTons). Smaller than 100 dTons and you have a problem of cost-effectiveness.
6) Any aliens are useful for ideas. You can always ignore the ones you hate.
No. Canon is a yardstick for publishers as to what material is acceptable within the setting and what is not, for the sake of a consistent setting background.
Players can ignore, tweak, modify, or remain consistent with canon to the degree that they choose in their campaigns - that is their business.
When people discuss what is canon on this forum, they are discussing the baseline(s) established by the setting publishers in the published material (including "versions" of canon specific to particular rule-sets - yes canon does evolve). No one can tell anyone that they are "wrong" about a given point relative to their own campaign(s) and or preferences. A person may be able to objectively say that something is not canonical based on published setting source material - but that in no way stops anyone from making decisions as to what they wish to include or exclude in their own individual campaigns based on their personal preferences.
Last edited:
Canon tells me what is known in the known universe. The books set the rules for the known areas only. If you jump 3 sectors away from the surveyed areas, what is and isn't depends on the game masters mind only.
If you can find an area with an advanced race with a race that has jump tech unknown to the imperium, then they may have 5 ton jump torpedoes in common use due to their types of tech. If you can bring a working jump torpedo and the tech to make more and what causes it to work properly, expect a rise in your social standing and bank account.
When you run into Grandfathers pocket universe, his royal guards may be using light sabers, personal energy screens, ansible coms, and other exotic stuff of tech 20 or more. Grandfather has had 200,000 years to create outrageous tech when not contemplating his belly button.
As for the Primordials/Sparklers are not what Joe Fugate wanted them to be, Joe is the god of what he created. We are playing in his creation. if you want something different, create someplace else beyond the borders and fill it with whatever you want. You are the god of what you create. Be a consistent god for your players.
GM rules;
Rule 1, make your game consistent within itself.
Rule 2, make it memorable.
Rule 3, make it challenging.
Rule 4, make it fun.
Rule 5, read the rules, your players did and will challenge you for everything they can.
Rule 6, Everything has a battery or a power cord, it will have limitations.
Rule 7, Murphy's Rules are always in play, What can go wrong will, in the worst possible way, at the worst possible time, affecting the most possible people, in the most embarrassing way, communicated to the entire universe, at the speed of jump 6, by the Chirper network. Just try relieving yourself on a Chirper carved statue of Grandfather of Hydrogen ice a sector past the porders of known space and see what happens.
If you can find an area with an advanced race with a race that has jump tech unknown to the imperium, then they may have 5 ton jump torpedoes in common use due to their types of tech. If you can bring a working jump torpedo and the tech to make more and what causes it to work properly, expect a rise in your social standing and bank account.
When you run into Grandfathers pocket universe, his royal guards may be using light sabers, personal energy screens, ansible coms, and other exotic stuff of tech 20 or more. Grandfather has had 200,000 years to create outrageous tech when not contemplating his belly button.
As for the Primordials/Sparklers are not what Joe Fugate wanted them to be, Joe is the god of what he created. We are playing in his creation. if you want something different, create someplace else beyond the borders and fill it with whatever you want. You are the god of what you create. Be a consistent god for your players.
GM rules;
Rule 1, make your game consistent within itself.
Rule 2, make it memorable.
Rule 3, make it challenging.
Rule 4, make it fun.
Rule 5, read the rules, your players did and will challenge you for everything they can.
Rule 6, Everything has a battery or a power cord, it will have limitations.
Rule 7, Murphy's Rules are always in play, What can go wrong will, in the worst possible way, at the worst possible time, affecting the most possible people, in the most embarrassing way, communicated to the entire universe, at the speed of jump 6, by the Chirper network. Just try relieving yourself on a Chirper carved statue of Grandfather of Hydrogen ice a sector past the porders of known space and see what happens.
Did you give your players an item that unbalanced the game or seriously violated canon and need it gone? The answer is easy.
1 The power cord plug in does not match the plugs where you are. Ever travel in Europe with US powered items, the plugs don't fit and the power is 220V 50 Hz there, not 110V 60Hz.
2. The batteries aren't rechargeable and you have none of that size and voltage.
3. Customs didn't like the look of it and confiscated it. It is now in a research lab with the royalties going to the customs inspector. It will be an adventure to get the disassembled parts back.
4. Stomped on by a 30 ton sauroid.
5. Corrosive atmospheres or salt water can be sooo nasty.
6. Every try firing a weapon that is 3000 years old?
7. The 6 year old kids being run by a Fagin, see Oliver Twist, grabbed it and ran, passing it off to 12 other kid thieves. Adventure to get it back. They used it for an a very illegal crime and the local Gestapo is looking for it and the last people seen to have it.
8. You used it on a government type D, Religious government world with a matching law level. They are getting the poles placed with enough fire wood to be seen over the horizon. Enjoy being the guest of honor at the heretic burning.
9. Get really creatively nasty.
1 The power cord plug in does not match the plugs where you are. Ever travel in Europe with US powered items, the plugs don't fit and the power is 220V 50 Hz there, not 110V 60Hz.
2. The batteries aren't rechargeable and you have none of that size and voltage.
3. Customs didn't like the look of it and confiscated it. It is now in a research lab with the royalties going to the customs inspector. It will be an adventure to get the disassembled parts back.
4. Stomped on by a 30 ton sauroid.
5. Corrosive atmospheres or salt water can be sooo nasty.
6. Every try firing a weapon that is 3000 years old?
7. The 6 year old kids being run by a Fagin, see Oliver Twist, grabbed it and ran, passing it off to 12 other kid thieves. Adventure to get it back. They used it for an a very illegal crime and the local Gestapo is looking for it and the last people seen to have it.
8. You used it on a government type D, Religious government world with a matching law level. They are getting the poles placed with enough fire wood to be seen over the horizon. Enjoy being the guest of honor at the heretic burning.
9. Get really creatively nasty.
Proneutron
SOC-13
In short, I don't add things that will cause "problems" for the game universe. E.g. star trek like transporters and replicators. Which breaks SO many laws of physics that the game can fall apart with smart players. Star trek works on the screen because the writers never confront the OBVIOUS implications of that magic they call technology.
Star Trek works fine as a roleplaying setting... provided players agree to treat the setting with some restraint.
The same is true of the OTU as written - if the GM or players don't agree to the restricted tech base of the OTU setting... Otherwise, you have to update it all.
Marc, Loren, Frank, and Tim were really good at creating believable futures, and even pasts (Space 1889), but not so good with what the tech would be. (EG predicting German adoption of the G11 in T2K.)
Still, within the paradigm of 1950's to 1970 pulp Sci Fi, Traveller is a good middle ground... Bill the Galactic Hero, Lensman, Niven & Puornelle CoDoverse, Niven's Known Space, Robert Heinlein's corpus, Frank Herbert's corpus... and can be stretched to everything from Armageddon 2419 to Star Wars and Star Trek. But it needs adapting for many of them.
And yes, I ran a Star Trek game using CT HG char gen and ship design with some tweaks. TOS Enterprise 19KTd.
Proneutron
SOC-13
That is my point. It isn't viable unless players decide to ignore the gaping holes in the universe. It is broken by design
No, I got your point. It's just that it's irrelevant, since all fictional universes with extensive elements we lack in the mundane modern earth have the same issue. Including Traveller. Including D&D. Star Wars. Codoverse. Vorkosiverse. Dragonlance/Krynn.
Eberron is, for example, D&D with most of the obvious magitech holes filled. Note that I said most. If players push in the wrong places, it still breaks the setting.
Trek is no worse than most other settings, and better than a few, since only certain elements really get abused much by players: Transporters and Holodecks being the biggest ones. Ignoring that a crashed starship should blow a 20km crater being on of the setting tropes.
Traveller: Near-C rocks/ships come easily to mind. I'm sure you could do lots with heat-transfer as well.
And then there is the whole piracy can of worms :CoW: . . .
Proneutron
SOC-13
Yes, I fixed that early on
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Aslan are bargain-counter Kzin. Then the doggies and horsies. I'm not concerned with that part of canon.
But, sub-100 dT jump is outside what I would consider Traveller product identity, as are lightsabers and ansibles. Just don't.
I really haven't thought of a good way to disarm that.
But, sub-100 dT jump is outside what I would consider Traveller product identity, as are lightsabers and ansibles. Just don't.
Fixed? How so? Kinda hard to put in a speed limit. If you could, the speed limit would have to be really low. A rock doesn't have to be going anywhere near c to be a catastrophic impact. Push a thousand ton rock up to 100 km/s for a gigaton+ blast. Not an extinction level event, but it could wipe out every city within 50 miles. An ocean impact could destroy every city on a whole coastline hundreds of miles away.
I really haven't thought of a good way to disarm that.
The canon attempt is to limit the distance from a planet where M-Drives work properly, so you can't get a good run-up for your high-velocity impactor. I don't know how effective a constraint it is, though.
Proneutron
SOC-13
Nope. One just sets a limit as to how much velocity can be imparted. It isn't a reaction drive after all. Also removing gained inertia when entering J space gets rid of the "unsolvable" problem.
It doesn't need to be artificially accelerated at all to "be a catastrophic impact." That isn't the point. The point is making it slow enough so that it can be reacted to fairly easily by a defending high tech force. 5% c would do it yet still allow interplanetary trips via M-drive. Most people don't realize how huge the space of a solar system is and how small planets are in relation. The problem isn't avoiding crashing into a planet but hitting one in the first place. The TINIEST change in vector at a significant distance means a miss. Either speeding it, slowing it or change of direction. Going that slow one simply pushes a ready asteroid into its path and that is that.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There are areas of canon that are contradicted by that band aid solution.
Take The Traveller Adventure for example - can't get more canon than that you would think.
In it there is a scenario where ship combat occurs at a deep space fuel dump, empty hex no planets or stars. No mention of reducing m-drive performance as you conduct your piracy.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
5% c is 15,000 km/s... not slow. I've never done near-c impacter calcs before, so here goes.
It would only take 2.8 hrs to go 1 AU, a bit under 12 hrs to reach Earth from the orbit of Jupiter (4.2 AU away), 80 hrs from the orbit of Neptune (29 AU away). Of course, you don't release it anywhere near the a planet or other high traffic area. Use a trajectory that is well outside the plane of the ecliptic.
At that speed, a ten ton rock (less than 5 m³) would have a ~2.5 GT impact. 1 ton (less than ½ m³) gives you ~250 MT, 5 times bigger than the Tsar Bomba test. I think I did the math right.
Are you sure you will pick up such a small, dark, cold rock moving that fast in that time frame? 80 hours maybe. 12 hours doubtful. 3 hours slim to none. The trick is to spot the launching craft, either during the run-up or after release. That's why the attack is launched from at least 5-10 AU with a stealthy ship.
I believe CT says mil sensors are effective to 1 ls. I don't think any defenders are likely to be within 1 ls of a path. OK, let's say massive defense sensors have a range of 1 AU, and they're constantly sweeping the entire sphere of local space. How many sensors do you need to cover the whole sky out to 2 AU? One at Earth with five more around the orbit barely covers the whole orbit with large gaps. Place six more about ¼ AU further out to fill the gaps and extend the range a bit.
That only covers the orbital plane. Now do the same in two more planes angled 60° from the orbital plane requires 8 more at 1 AU and 12 more at 1¼ AU. Well, that's a static pattern. If they're in stable orbits the constellation gets a little bigger. Then you need another layer of sensors at around 3 AU, which takes nine times as many for spherical coverage out to ~4 AU. Now we've only bought about 9 hours warning for approaches near the orbital position, and maybe 15 hours to detect approaches from opposite side of the sun across, above, or below.
I think that's within reason for a spacefaring culture. So how likely are these sensors to pick up the little rocks from David's sling, as it were? In some place 3-4 sensors will overlap for a fairly good chance. Outer areas with large areas that don't overlap will have a low chance. Many more sensors will be required to have more overlap than single coverage. Expensive, no doubt, but not onerous for a heavy spacefaring milieu.
Now let's see... it would take 3 days at 6 G to accelerate to 15M m/s, which is doable with a 30-ton boat. It could even carry the rock in the hold while accelerating. It would start 12.5 AU from the release point. The boat would need a special rack or something to hold the rock while fine-tuning the trajectory and to release without imparting spin or lateral velocity. Tack on a small capacitor-powered motor and a passive sensor to stay on course just to be sure.
Such a ship could carry multiple rocks and do a bit of lateral maneuvering to release them on separate trajectories. They'll be separated by a few hours, not close enough together in time or space to make detection easier.
If you want a precision strike on the enemy, position a spy close enough to send real time target position data to the guidance system. Even that might not be necessary. A commercial radio frequency broadcast near the target could be used as a beacon.
If you are the target, maybe you get lucky and pick up the rock. Let's suppose your guys are good to move a similar size rock into the path. I guess it better have a powerful motor and active sensor in case the impacter has smart terminal guidance. Whew, that was too close for comfort.
What if the enemy uses a dozen or so launchers, with a dozen rocks each, in widely distributed trajectories? A determined foe will succeed in overwhelming any defenses.
It would only take 2.8 hrs to go 1 AU, a bit under 12 hrs to reach Earth from the orbit of Jupiter (4.2 AU away), 80 hrs from the orbit of Neptune (29 AU away). Of course, you don't release it anywhere near the a planet or other high traffic area. Use a trajectory that is well outside the plane of the ecliptic.
At that speed, a ten ton rock (less than 5 m³) would have a ~2.5 GT impact. 1 ton (less than ½ m³) gives you ~250 MT, 5 times bigger than the Tsar Bomba test. I think I did the math right.
Are you sure you will pick up such a small, dark, cold rock moving that fast in that time frame? 80 hours maybe. 12 hours doubtful. 3 hours slim to none. The trick is to spot the launching craft, either during the run-up or after release. That's why the attack is launched from at least 5-10 AU with a stealthy ship.
I believe CT says mil sensors are effective to 1 ls. I don't think any defenders are likely to be within 1 ls of a path. OK, let's say massive defense sensors have a range of 1 AU, and they're constantly sweeping the entire sphere of local space. How many sensors do you need to cover the whole sky out to 2 AU? One at Earth with five more around the orbit barely covers the whole orbit with large gaps. Place six more about ¼ AU further out to fill the gaps and extend the range a bit.
That only covers the orbital plane. Now do the same in two more planes angled 60° from the orbital plane requires 8 more at 1 AU and 12 more at 1¼ AU. Well, that's a static pattern. If they're in stable orbits the constellation gets a little bigger. Then you need another layer of sensors at around 3 AU, which takes nine times as many for spherical coverage out to ~4 AU. Now we've only bought about 9 hours warning for approaches near the orbital position, and maybe 15 hours to detect approaches from opposite side of the sun across, above, or below.
I think that's within reason for a spacefaring culture. So how likely are these sensors to pick up the little rocks from David's sling, as it were? In some place 3-4 sensors will overlap for a fairly good chance. Outer areas with large areas that don't overlap will have a low chance. Many more sensors will be required to have more overlap than single coverage. Expensive, no doubt, but not onerous for a heavy spacefaring milieu.
Now let's see... it would take 3 days at 6 G to accelerate to 15M m/s, which is doable with a 30-ton boat. It could even carry the rock in the hold while accelerating. It would start 12.5 AU from the release point. The boat would need a special rack or something to hold the rock while fine-tuning the trajectory and to release without imparting spin or lateral velocity. Tack on a small capacitor-powered motor and a passive sensor to stay on course just to be sure.
Such a ship could carry multiple rocks and do a bit of lateral maneuvering to release them on separate trajectories. They'll be separated by a few hours, not close enough together in time or space to make detection easier.
If you want a precision strike on the enemy, position a spy close enough to send real time target position data to the guidance system. Even that might not be necessary. A commercial radio frequency broadcast near the target could be used as a beacon.
If you are the target, maybe you get lucky and pick up the rock. Let's suppose your guys are good to move a similar size rock into the path. I guess it better have a powerful motor and active sensor in case the impacter has smart terminal guidance. Whew, that was too close for comfort.
What if the enemy uses a dozen or so launchers, with a dozen rocks each, in widely distributed trajectories? A determined foe will succeed in overwhelming any defenses.
Proneutron
SOC-13
Again, irrelevant without CONTEXT. Plenty slow for interdiction. Which is what I said it was for. Reread what I posted. Since ANY spaceship entering or maneuvering ANYWHERE in a system will be spotted by the local star faring military at the speed of LIGHT, anyone trying to accelerate a rock will be noticed, tracked and countered LONG before anything gets near a planet. If even nominal preparations have been done.
Do you understand what I have laid out? Do you have a scenario envisioned that actually counters what I wrote? Just saying it is "fast" without anything else is not really a reply nor a retort.
You don't need to accelerate in system. Jump preserves the ships vector, you can accelerate out of the system, and jump in close.
Proneutron
SOC-13
Not in my game (see below about how I solved the c rock problem in my game that started this part of the thread).
The solution was too simple. Something I implemented about 35 years ago.
