MGT Only: Jack-of-All-Trades?

[Spinward Scout]

Here's a question I don't get:

If my character has Gun Combat-0 and J-o-T-1 do I get a +1 bonus for my Gun Combat or is there no effect since the skill is technically trained at Gun Combat-0?

This confuses me.

 

[MongooseMatt]

No. JoT _only_ negates the negative penalty for being unskilled, it does not get used anywhere else. With Gun Combat 0, you would have the normal DM+0.

 

[whartung]

So is there any value to JoT > 1?

 

[whulorigan]

So is there any value to JoT > 1?

In MgT, Unskilled penalty for a task is at "-3". Each level of JoT reduces that penalty by 1 point. So there is no value to having JoT 4+.

 

[kilemall]

I like the home rule JoT gets you 0 negative skill DM and the skill number gives you number of retries, indicating degree of resourcefulness.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I like the home rule JoT gets you 0 negative skill DM and the skill number gives you number of retries, indicating degree of resourcefulness.

That, and the related twist that you have to come at it by J-o-T-ing a different applicable skill after an initial failure.

Picking an electronic lock?
First attempt, Electronics-0 (trying to rewire it).
Second attempt, Mechanical-0 (trying to force the lock's bolt mechanically).
Third attempt, Computer-0 (trying to trick the security computer into thinking there's an emergency so as to invoke its emergency override).
... or maybe Brawling-0 in an attempt to kick the door in.

 

[Condottiere]

The MacGyver trait.

Plus plot armour.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I would go in a different direction, game mechanically speaking.

Jack of all Trades will always "function" as a Skill-0 for you (so no "unskilled" -DM), regardless of whatever your J-o-T skill level is.

Your J-o-T skill level determines how many throws of the dice you get per attempt.

So with skill 1, you roll the dice once ... and that's your result.
With skill 2, you roll the dice twice ... and take the best result (what Pathfinder and a number of other systems would call "rolling at advantage").
With skill 3, you roll the dice three times ... and take the best result of those three throws.
And so on and so forth ...

That way, there's no "penalty" (by waste) for having a high skill level in J-o-T.
Your maximum "yield" through the dice remains the same (skill zero, max roll) ... but with increasing J-o-T skill the "skew" of your dice results bias more strongly towards the high end and away from the low end of straight random chance. In other words, with increasing skill levels, your J-o-T becomes "more reliable at rolling high" as opposed to giving you better +DMs (which is what skills normally do).

 

[Grav_Moped]

So with skill 1, you roll the dice once ... and that's your result.
With skill 2, you roll the dice twice ... and take the best result (what Pathfinder and a number of other systems would call "rolling at advantage").
With skill 3, you roll the dice three times ... and take the best result of those three throws.
And so on and so forth ...

Or add one die to the pool for each level above 1, discard the low dice. (JoT-1 is normal, JoT-2 rolls 3 keeps 2 highest, JoT-3 rolls 4 keeps 2 highest).

 

[Condottiere]

I've always thought that solving a problem would be throwing more dice at it.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I've always thought that solving a problem would be throwing more dice at it.

Just depends on how hard you throw them...

 

[McPerth]

Jack of all Trades will always "function" as a Skill-0 for you (so no "unskilled" -DM), regardless of whatever your J-o-T skill level is.

Your J-o-T skill level determines how many throws of the dice you get per attempt.

So with skill 1, you roll the dice once ... and that's your result.
With skill 2, you roll the dice twice ... and take the best result (what Pathfinder and a number of other systems would call "rolling at advantage").
With skill 3, you roll the dice three times ... and take the best result of those three throws.
And so on and so forth ...

See that this makes JOT a very powerful skill, as gives you retries and nullifies the negative DM for unskilled.

So, if you have a character with INT 8 and medic 2 (so, in MgT a doctor) and another with INT 12 and JOT 1, the second character would be better to try to diagnose someone than the Doctor, as he will have 2 rolls with a DM +2 (for INT), while the doctor will have only one roll with the same DM.

Likewise, having a +1 due to stats and JOT 1 but no Engoineering skill makes you better engineer than one having no stat DM and Engineering 2, as the second character must split his 2 levels of engineering among 5 specialties (so being skill 0 in most of them) and, even on those where he has skill, he has only one roll, against the 2 for the charaacter with no Engineering skill.

MgT treatment on JOT makes it already wuite powerful. It's true that if you have it at 4+ you lose skills, but having any skill at equivalent of 0 makes you a very powerful character, to the point of, IMHO, not being realistic.

The MT appreach (free retries), OTOH, is not only more balanced, but makes the skill also useful for fields where you have the skill (if you have Engineering 1, having a retry also helps you on related rolls). To limit its efects, through, as I have already commented in other relate dthreads, when I refereed MT I made the rerolls hazardous (more dangerous on failure), as it means using "unortodox" methods to achieve th results, so more possibilities, at the price of higher risk (using improvised tools may give you the edge, or ruin your drive)

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Spinward Flow]

See that this makes JOT a very powerful skill, as gives you retries and nullifies the negative DM for unskilled.

The "rolling at advantage" mechanic doesn't give you "retries" per se.
It's not a Try=Fail ... Try=Fail ... Try=Succeed kind of pattern, where 3 tries requires 3 task durations.
It's a single "try" per use, that functions as a TryTryTry=Succeed as a single use (in the case of a JoT-3 skill, for example).

So, if you have a character with INT 8 and medic 2 (so, in MgT a doctor) and another with INT 12 and JOT 1, the second character would be better to try to diagnose someone than the Doctor, as he will have 2 rolls with a DM +2 (for INT), while the doctor will have only one roll with the same DM.

WAH!!!
Someone smarter than me can be better at my job THAN I AM!

The difference in your example is that the Medic-2 is qualified for roles that require minimum skill levels (such as ship's medic), while the JoT-1 IS NOT QUALIFIED for a role that requires Medic-1 minimum. Sure, the dice rolls they throw might look extremely similar in a statistical analysis, with the "smarter JoT" having the advantage in terms of reliability of outcomes ... but them's the breaks.

Now, if you wanted to house rule that Skill-1+ individuals can trade a +1 DM from skill for an "extra roll at advantage" when attempting tasks ... your INT 8 Medic-2 could roll twice at +1 DM ... making them almost as good as the INT 12 JoT-2 competitor (who isn't qualified to take a medical job role, but who can manage in a pinch) ... but that's a reflection of INT 8 vs 12, rather than a reflection of Medic-2 vs JoT-2.

 

[coliver988]

just because you are smarter does not mean you can do something someone else is trained in (good luck decrypting the quantum computer with that fork BTW). I've always used JOT per classic, and really on a case-by-case basis. I know that the RAW can make it way too powerful in Mongoose.

Mongoose's version works well enough (-1 against that -3 per level up to 0) but again, I'd only let that skill get used as a band aid. If brain surgery were required, sorry, JOT won't cut it. Interpreting the medical scanner and applying appropriate first aid, getting that power plant started (shades of "I know Unix/Jurassic Park") probably. It would really be a case-by-case basis for me, not a blanket rule to let a JOT-3 character do anything without a negative DM.

But then I tend to run fairly rules-light games. But as with all things, it is your game to play the way you want to. For me, the rules are just the starting point that everyone starts at.

And no, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night....

edit: and I've been lucky that I don't have min/max/munckin players that try & take advantage of the rules.

 

[Condottiere]

It depends on how you want to play it.

If the situation warrants knowing some trivia from another listed, or unlisted skill, you could combine it to give some form of bonus to success.

 

[McPerth]

The "rolling at advantage" mechanic doesn't give you "retries" per se.
It's not a Try=Fail ... Try=Fail ... Try=Succeed kind of pattern, where 3 tries requires 3 task durations.
It's a single "try" per use, that functions as a TryTryTry=Succeed as a single use (in the case of a JoT-3 skill, for example).

That's the way I unterpret it too, being the same attempt, just with different approach (more "unortodox", so to say, but if you allow a character with JOT to use any untrained skill at level 0 and make all those rerolls, why to have any more skills? a 999999 JOT-1 character is one of the most powerful character's I've seen with those rules, rolling any task at +1 and with 2 rolls, taking the better one...

WAH!!!
Someone smarter than me can be better at my job THAN I AM!

I guess Einstein was quite smarter than myself, but I'm not sure he would be better nurse than I am...

The difference in your example is that the Medic-2 is qualified for roles that require minimum skill levels (such as ship's medic), while the JoT-1 IS NOT QUALIFIED for a role that requires Medic-1 minimum. Sure, the dice rolls they throw might look extremely similar in a statistical analysis, with the "smarter JoT" having the advantage in terms of reliability of outcomes ... but them's the breaks.

Many tasks depend more on skills than on stats, and JOT should not change this too much. If you would trust your healt to McGiver (quite smart and high JOT, as I see him) more than to an average INT doctor, then I wish you luck, as I guess you'll need it...


MgT returned to CT/MT approach of skills over stats. If you want stats to be more important than skills, I'd suggest you to play either T4 or T5. They are also good systems, albeit not personally my cup of tea, as I prefer the CT/MT/MgT approach.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Love these discussions

JoT is not the be-all-and-end-all and, in a way, is in the game as a motivation for a bit of fun rather than a panacea that can solve everything ('George needs surgery, but we have no doctor'... 'That's alright, I can give it a go, I saw this on a medical drama once...).

To pick up on some examples here, imagine a Traveller with JoT 1 about to attempt surgery on your character, and then a good surgeon with Medic 3. Even ignoring INT bonuses (and we might presume a decent doctor would be getting some serious DMs there), you already have a 5 point spread between the two (Medic 3, plus JoT reducing the unskilled penalty to -2).

That ain't great

It might just get you out of a jam in extreme necessity, but you are more likely to end up with a dead patient (and a miffed player).

You can also play around with characteristic bonuses with JoT. For example, a surgeon might be drawing on their learning and so use their EDU bonus. But a JoT Traveller has no learning and so is forced to use INT, and if they are not the brightest of individuals...

Basically, a little JoT is a way to get players into trouble and if a Traveller has a high JoT they can be extremely useful with all the basic stuff, but once those Difficulty numbers start climbing, they rapidly run out of puff.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Basically, a little JoT is a way to get players into trouble and if a Traveller has a high JoT they can be extremely useful with all the basic stuff, but once those Difficulty numbers start climbing, they rapidly run out of puff.

Exactly.
With 2D6 and Skill-0 your max result is going to be 12 ... while 2D6 and Skill-1 has a max result of 13 ... all else being equal (including DMs).

When you start needing to roll "really high" (beyond 12+) ... that's when JoT falters, because that's the realm of the highly skilled (as opposed to the broadly skilled, which is what JoT represents).

 

[McPerth]

• With 2D6 and Skill-0 your max result is going to be 12 ... while 2D6 and Skill-1 has a max result of 13 ... all else being equal (including DMs).

When you start needing to roll "really high" (beyond 12+) ... that's when JoT falters, because that's the realm of the highly skilled (as opposed to the broadly skilled, which is what JoT represents).

OK, let's see whant happens when you need high rolls.

Let's imagine the party has to fix their life support. The roll to do it is 12+, and the two characters able to do it have a +1 stat bonus. One of them (let's call him A) has engineering 2 (power plant and jump drive, so he rest of specialties to 0). The other (let's call him B) JOT 1.

With rules as written (JOT reduces the unskilled DM):

• A needs to roll 12+ with a +1 DM, so 11+ (about 8% chance). Exceptional failure (effect -6) on a 5- (so about 28% chance)
• B cannot do it unless takes more time to have positive DMs.

With JOT as rerolling capacity situation is more or less the same.

With your suggested rules (JOT nullifies unskilled DM and gives you rerolls):

• A: same as above
• B: Needs to roll 12+ with a +1 DM, but rolls twice and chooses the best. So about 15% chance of success (rolling 11+ in any of both rolls) and about 7% chance of extraordinary failure (rolling 5- in both rolls).

So, when those high rolls are in force, your rules not only give the JOT player about double chance to achieve the result, but also reduce the chance of an Exceptional failure by about 75%. Not much sense, IMHO (YMMV)...