Justifications: Shangri La/Ley: 0933: Starports & Starship Constuction

[RainOfSteel]

Shangri La/Outreaumer/Ley: 0933
A000655-C

I've noticed some interesting things about this world, and maybe some people here can think of some good answers.

Shangri La is "Lacking any real industrial capability," and further, " . . . the Shangri La system cannot support its tech base without imported equipment."

And yet, of the 8 million inhabitants, it states, "Many are employed in the port or its associated starship construction yards."

Ok, am I the only person who has difficulty understanding this? Shangri La has no industry of its own (so little, that the local TL is supposedly zero; further adding confusion as to what the TL stat really indicates), and yet, it has a starship construction yard (of course, as all starports do).

Now, we all know that A Starports have their own constructions yards. But here is a clear-cut case where nothing that might go into the assembly of the starships coming out of the yard is being manufactured locally (unless we wish to posit that starports have their own industrial manufacturing capabilities). Every last component must be shipped in to be assembled. The closest world that can supply TL-13 manufactured goods to Shangri La is Baakh, at J-4. Since there really isn't any significant J-4 freighter traffic, anyway, we're then looking at a minimum of two jumps to get this to Shangri La; adding a Cr2000/dTon shipped cost to every starship manufactured at Shangri La. I guess it's not too much to pay an extra Cr400,000 or more above normal for a Far Trader.

All I can think of is that the yards at Baakh and Ohasset are so backlogged all the time that it's worthwhile to fork out the extra money to get the extra ships built now at Shangri La.

However, since Baakh is TL-D, and the entirety of all starships made in Shangri La come from components manufactured elsewhere (at Baakh, realistically speaking), then why would the starships being built at Shangri La be limited to TL-C (which is the yes-it-is/no-its-not TL of the Mainworld)? Since it's only assembly, the TL-C of Shangri La can't have much impact on the yard process. The yard can already repair damage to any TL vessel, and assembly isn't that much different. I mean, starships can be repaired by an starport A or B regardless of local TL, but the starport has to have a TL equal to or greater than the target TL of a starship to be built? Right? Except that the TL of the Shangri La starport clearly has nothing to do with the starship construction situation in this case. Should we allow Shangri La to assemble TL-D starships? If we allow it in this case, shouldn't we allow it in all cases?

This raises the questions:
</font>

• Is a starport's population a part of the UWP population?</font>
• Do starports have non-native transient, native tranient, non-native permanent, and native permanent populations? If so, do we determine them separately?</font>
• Is a starport's TL limited by, or interlocking with, the UWP TL?</font>
• Should a UWP TL value ever reflect the starport's TL instead of the mainworld's TL?</font>
• Do starports have their own industrial manufacturing capacity (other than starships)?</font>
• If starports did have their own industrial manufacturing capacity, how much would it be?</font>
• What is the total capacity of a starport to repair or build new starships?</font>
• Are starports limited in their ability to build new starships by their TL and/or the mainworld's TL?</font>
• Should any aspect of any world's starport ever intrude upon the UWP beyond the starport characteristic itself?</font>
• Should the T5 UWP (at the UWP abstraction layer proposed by robject) include a few extra slots just for the starport (or, rather, the non-native population, etc.).</font>

 

[far-trader]

Well, it's hardly the only system with "problems" but I'd approach it as saying that one or the other (of the UWP or text, take your pick) is WRONG, or parts of each, and work from there. Yeah, I know, that automatically makes it MTU (or YTU) but it preserves the precious few sane brain cells I have left

I'd probably go with the UWP and ignore the bit about no local manufacturing/resources. It's in a bloody belt, what better place is there for raw materials?

On to more specifics, and my own interpretions for the most part...

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
...starships can be repaired by an starport A or B regardless of local TL, but the starport has to have a TL equal to or greater than the target TL of a starship to be built?

As I've been told that is correct, BUT I've never done it that way myself since it makes no sense to me. I use the TL as the limit for building AND repairing ships. So you land your spiffy TL13 Yacht at a backwater starport of TL9 and ask them to fix the flow metering. The yard boss says "Sure, as soon as we can order the parts from the nearest TL13 port, and we might need to bring a tech too, my guys have no experience with this model." Several weeks and extra creds later...

This raises the questions:
</font>

• Is a starport's population a part of the UWP population?
  
  My opinion, the UWP Pop is the total sentient life for the whole system. The bulk of it is usually (but not always) on the Mainworld.
  .</font>
• Do starports have non-native transient, native tranient, non-native permanent, and native permanent populations? If so, do we determine them separately?
  
  Nope, IMTU the Pop is only the resident sentient population. Transient or temporary populations are not included (and usually not significant).
  .</font>
• Is a starport's TL limited by, or interlocking with, the UWP TL?
  
  For MTU he UWP TL is the typical TL of the system. The Mainworld may have areas of lower TL and limited capacity (usually goverment or military/police) of higher TL. The Starport TL is interlocking in the sense that it is the best of the system. Of course IMTU starports have certain minimum TL requirements (I usually bump the TL if needed). Class A requires a minimum of TL9. Class B requires a minimum of TL7. Class C requires a minimum of TL5. The others have no minimum.
  .</font>
• Should a UWP TL value ever reflect the starport's TL instead of the mainworld's TL?
  
  No need in my opinion, least the way I handle it. There shouldn't be a Class A starport on a TL0 world, though you could have a Class E starport and a TL11 society.
  .</font>
• Do starports have their own industrial manufacturing capacity (other than starships)?
  
  Again imtu yes. Though generally limited. I add a levelof manufacture to starport expanding on the transport theme to service the trade needs of the port. Class C starports may manufacture vehicles. Beyond this not much, but they (Class A, B and C all have the capacity for doing most manufacturing with the tools and skills in place. Such things as robotics and weapons are generally done as part of the work involved in building ships, craft and vehicles.
  .</font>
• If starports did have their own industrial manufacturing capacity, how much would it be?
  
  
  
  Ah, capacity, the tough question. I've been trying to figure this out for decades. It should I think be mostly dependant on Pop and TL, as well as the starport. No hard numbers, they change all the time and I'm still trying to find the key to make a workable rule so I usually just wing it.
  .</font>
• What is the total capacity of a starport to repair or build new starships?
  
  See above. I actually lump it all into one. The build, repair, maintenance, and berthing are all part of the total capacity of the starport. The traffic then determines how much of that capacity is free at any time. It's good practice imtu to book your annual maintenance well ahead of time to insure you have an appropriate slip when you get there. And while regularly scheduled traffic will always have a berth when they arrive (on time), a Free-Trader jumping in unannounced may have to wait for a free berth or deal with the hassles of working from an orbital assignment.
  .</font>
• Are starports limited in their ability to build new starships by their TL and/or the mainworld's TL?
  
  Answered above.
  .</font>
• Should any aspect of any world's starport ever intrude upon the UWP beyond the starport characteristic itself?
  
  In my opinion as noted above the TL has to meet certain minimums, so yes.
  .</font>
• Should the T5 UWP (at the UWP abstraction layer proposed by robject) include a few extra slots just for the starport (or, rather, the non-native population, etc.).
  
  Unneccesary in my opinion. YMMV
  .</font>

 

[robject]

Enlightening questions, regardless of how one might answer them.

 

[Piper]

A curiosity question here; does it say why this system has no manufacturing capability?

Regarding the population versus the starport type, I always assumed that starport staffing was in addition to the population for a world. It goes a long way towards explaining worlds with 30 people and a class A port facility.
I know nothing about T20 so please factor that into the above statement.

Trillion Credit Squadron has a rule for determining starport capacity. If you're interested, and if it can be adapted to T20, I'll pass it along.

 

[far-trader]

Indeed robject, good questions can spark good ideas through discussion. Say, been meaning to ask when did you get Confused?

Piper, it's been a while since I read the material so Chris can probably answer that when he sees the question.

As for Pop 30 (or fewer) and other low-pop worlds with Class A, B and even C starports I allow that they do have the full functionality (capable of building, repairing and maintaining), but due to the shortage of manpower it's at very low capacity. TL will help some through automation and robotics. But as I said above I have had a hard time quantifying it over the years, at least in an easy way and so I just wing it when playing.
I have been scribbling notes about this off and on the last couple months trying to see if I can come up with something for T20. So far all I've got is a headache

I'd be interested in the TCS viewpoint but officially it may not be much help as I'm pretty sure it's been ruled as not the same universe. Still it might offer some insight if you can find it.

My biggest (?) problem is trying to come up with a way of scaling it so that traffic and capacity balance and work with as much of the OTU as possible, which means among other things making it easy to apply to both the small ship (i.e. CT pre HG) universe and the huge ship (HG and forward) universe. And of course it should support the trade tables (for tonnage of cargo and passengers) and the ship enconter tables (as a function of system traffic).

There was a thread here on CotI a while back on Starports that was to lead to a publication but it's been on the back burner for ages, and of course since GURPS did it there may be some who see it as a dead project.

Ah well, if nothing else it's a fun logic exercise and puzzle to keep me from wasting all my time on RealLife(tm)

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Piper:
A curiosity question here; does it say why this system has no manufacturing capability?

Not really. It does mention that the only industry is an ore refining complex, but that the majority of ore is shipped out raw.


It does mention that the yards are small, making mostly X-Boats and mining craft. But still, it still seems like they would be importing the components for even those ships 100%. They note that orders for anything else take longer (obviously because the components have to be ordered and shipped).

My question was, why not just build the additional yard capacity at Baakh? Why build X-Boats for Cr200,000 extra a pop? Wouldn't that cause an IISS accounting review? Pork (oh, look, let's create some make-work over here)? Hmmm, pork-barrel may well be the best explanation available. (The trouble with the "pork" explanation is that it is so easy to overuse that it begins to seem hackneyed.)

Originally posted by Piper:
Trillion Credit Squadron has a rule for determining starport capacity. If you're interested, and if it can be adapted to T20, I'll pass it along.

I'd be interested in seeing it.

I wonder if that's also included in Mark's decanonization of TCS for use in economic analysis (although I've never found the actual quote declaring this anywhere).

 

[Rossoneill]

I found this on the forum boards a few days ago on starports .
(I forget where exactly)
http://www.eaglestone.pocketempires.com/StarportModuleCatalog.html
I think i will use a lot of it .
It looks like it was for pocket empires

Hope it is useful to you

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Indeed robject, good questions can spark good ideas through discussion. Say, been meaning to ask when did you get Confused?

He was GrognardRojbect for a while, too.

Maybe he's confused now because he can't figure out what his user name should be.

Originally posted by far-trader:
I have been scribbling notes about this off and on the last couple months trying to see if I can come up with something for T20. So far all I've got is a headache

I so feel your pain, there. <nods in understanding />

Originally posted by far-trader:
My biggest (?) problem is trying to come up with a way of scaling it so that traffic and capacity balance and work with as much of the OTU as possible, which means among other things making it easy to apply to both the small ship (i.e. CT pre HG) universe and the huge ship (HG and forward) universe. And of course it should support the trade tables (for tonnage of cargo and passengers) and the ship enconter tables (as a function of system traffic).

Wow! Your compatibility ideas go far beyond what little thought I've given it so far.

<impressed />

Originally posted by far-trader:
There was a thread here on CotI a while back on Starports that was to lead to a publication but it's been on the back burner for ages, and of course since GURPS did it there may be some who see it as a dead project.

Ah well, if nothing else it's a fun logic exercise and puzzle to keep me from wasting all my time on RealLife(tm)

I guess I'm going to have to stick my nose into that forum (as soon as I can squeeze more time out of the dimensional stablizers).

 

[Piper]

Rossthree: wow ... nice link. A lot of good stuff in there. Thanks!

FWIW here's the TCS formula:
C=P*GM/1000
where C= total yard capacity in tons for build and repair
P= planetary population (in people, not the pop number)
GM is a government type modifier which changes for conditions of peace and war. The format is gov type/GM(peace)/GM(war):
0/.5/1.5
1/.8/1.4
2/1/1.5
3/.9/1.2
4/.85/1.45
5/.95/1.4
8/1.1/1.2
9/1.15/1.2
A/1.2/1.5
B/1.1/1.2
C/1.2/1.5
D/.75/1.5

Gov6 (colony) pays the same rate as the parent world and Gov7 (balkanized) calculates for each independant polity.

This figure represents the tonnage that can be in the yard at any time for both repair and construction.

 

[Piper]

If you're willing to entertain wild and unsupportable guesswork, you could try this:
Bulk ores and food don't have a 1-to-1 shipping ratio; that is, 1 ton of food will feed enough miners to produce many tons of ore. In order to prevent freighters going in with empty holds it was decided to create an industry (yeah, more pork).
Using the TCS numbers, the average figure for shipyard tonnage with 8 million population is around 8000 tons. That would explain why it's a small ship facility. Or it could be that so many people are working the mines that this port isn't up to even those modest standards and the tonnage is that much lower.
<shrugs>
Random planet generation can give ya fits.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by Rossthree:
I found this on the forum boards a few days ago on starports .
(I forget where exactly)
http://www.eaglestone.pocketempires.com/StarportModuleCatalog.html
I think i will use a lot of it .
It looks like it was for pocket empires

Hope it is useful to you

That is a huge document. It'll take me quite a while to pour over that and digest it.

Voice in the Background:
Cap'n, the dimensional stablizers ca'nae take anymore!

Stupid dimensional stablizers, they reach their temporal generation limits right when things get interesting.