Lasers: Are they silent? Are they visible?
- Thread starter Todg
- Start date
This prompts a few questions about cartridge-based laser smallarms...
Do these cartidges do generate electricity to power a laser, or actual light?
If it's electricity, why move/eject the cartidges at all? Why not move a pair of electrical contacts down the row of cartridges inside the magazine? Is it to shed heat?
If they generate actual light, then they replace some part(s) needed in electrical lasers. So how much size and weight does that save, and is it enough to pay for the mechanical gubbins?
How much additional reliability trouble do you get with all those moving parts, especially if you open the action to vacuum to during ejection?
Morte
A quick quote from FF&S
"The chemical reactions generated by CLCs are not efficient for producing electrical energy.Rather, they produce a population inversion of energised atoms and/or molecules which can be manipulated to release photons of a particular wavelength which are focused into a laser beam."pg 131.
CLC lasers require a combustor/evacuator chamber vs DEI lasers require a Homopolar generator HPG.
I'd have to design two weapons of equal performance to see which was smaller, weighed less, etc etc and guess what? not going to happen today my friend
A quick quote from FF&S
"The chemical reactions generated by CLCs are not efficient for producing electrical energy.Rather, they produce a population inversion of energised atoms and/or molecules which can be manipulated to release photons of a particular wavelength which are focused into a laser beam."pg 131.
CLC lasers require a combustor/evacuator chamber vs DEI lasers require a Homopolar generator HPG.
I'd have to design two weapons of equal performance to see which was smaller, weighed less, etc etc and guess what? not going to happen today my friend
I am no techie but wouldnt it be easier to use a low power laser as a conduet/carrier for some sort of particle that would cause the actual physical damage? I imagine that say hydrogen particles travelling at near light speed would do a ton of damage.
I remember reading something about this some where, may have been my old BTech days.
I remember reading something about this some where, may have been my old BTech days.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Badbru, I see what you're saying about TNE etc but I don't have any of that. What little I've seen about the FF&S design process, and maybe I got this wrong, beam ROF does not effect beam weapon energy requirements. In other words, the energy/turn of firing is the same whether divided among 10 shots or 800 shots.
If that is so, the Gatling CLC design is to have multiple full power shots, as in multiple hit and damage rolls. I know MT uses critical success to modify damage, perhaps the Gatling CLC can use it also for number of rounds in a burst that hit.
If that is so, the Gatling CLC design is to have multiple full power shots, as in multiple hit and damage rolls. I know MT uses critical success to modify damage, perhaps the Gatling CLC can use it also for number of rounds in a burst that hit.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Beam ROF does have an effect on energy requirements 
In TNE/T4 it is possible to increase the rate of energy supply (power) to a laser weapon in order to increase its rate of fire.
You get a ROF bonus based on the number of pules you can fire, which is itself based on how much power you can supply and the energy used per pulse.
In TNE/T4 it is possible to increase the rate of energy supply (power) to a laser weapon in order to increase its rate of fire.
You get a ROF bonus based on the number of pules you can fire, which is itself based on how much power you can supply and the energy used per pulse.
As Sigg Oddra has pointed out yes you do seem to have gotten it wrong (no criticism) but I can see where you probably were led to those assumptions. The hand held weapons; TL8 DEI Laser carbine with power backpack and the TL9 DEI Laser rifle with power backpack are like you say. Per turn power use is the same and rate of fire changes damage. That is to say you can fire one hi power shot, or several medium power shots, or lots and lots of low power shots for the same total per turn expenditure of power. Starship mounted DEI weapons though are different. If you want to up their rate of fire you have to up their power input. Thus I see a usefull niche market for CLC laser weapons for starships, especially rapid or very rapid fire ones, as retro fitted weapons. Captains of ships like A1 and A2 Free and Far Traders without Master Fire Directors and with a fixed/limmited powerplant size/output would probably walk over hot coals to get these weapons retrofitted to there turrets for the added "chance to hit" that they wouldn't get any other way. Hmmmn maybe I will have to design some of these puppies.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
I see. Nothing I have seen in FF&S designed small ships implied that high ROF at full power was even possible. It's all just 1 EP per laser. I have little interest in designs for the pure military vessels which might have the high-powered lasers; for a merchant-based campaign if you run into anything that big you are toast.
Definitely, I am primarily thinking of the smaller ships. Even a Merc Cruiser might not have the cojones to pump out that much firepower. For the sacrifice of a dT or so each for a magazine the increase in firepower is well worthwhile.
Aside: I'm also curious how such high ROF weapons are kept from melting into slag. Coolant (either vented or recaptured) implies a limited number of shots just as surely as cartridge-feed.
Definitely, I am primarily thinking of the smaller ships. Even a Merc Cruiser might not have the cojones to pump out that much firepower. For the sacrifice of a dT or so each for a magazine the increase in firepower is well worthwhile.
Aside: I'm also curious how such high ROF weapons are kept from melting into slag. Coolant (either vented or recaptured) implies a limited number of shots just as surely as cartridge-feed.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In FF&S, to get a very high ROF for your laser, it must be "hardened" to withstand the heat generated etc. so that the optics aren't fried. This increases the size, mass, and cost of the laser.
I think your idea fot CLC powered laser weapon for small merchants and the like has a lot of potential. Ships of this size and capability generally lack the large power plants that would be necessary to give them significant punch against any would be antagonist, whichever Traveller system you generate your ships with. This is especially true in T20 where very few of the civilian ship designs have the EPs to power their drives and a couple of triple laser turrets
Sacrificing 1 ton to have "12" shots of CLC ammunition seems reasonable enough to me.
I think your idea fot CLC powered laser weapon for small merchants and the like has a lot of potential. Ships of this size and capability generally lack the large power plants that would be necessary to give them significant punch against any would be antagonist, whichever Traveller system you generate your ships with. This is especially true in T20 where very few of the civilian ship designs have the EPs to power their drives and a couple of triple laser turrets
Sacrificing 1 ton to have "12" shots of CLC ammunition seems reasonable enough to me.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Or you could just use that space to fit a bigger power plant...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Except a 1 ton power plant will only provide 1-3 extra EPs in T20, then there is the extra power plant fuel, and finally there is the huge cost of power plants.
For a merchant ship a limited shots CLC system seems like a better use of resources than a much larger amount of space wasted carrying a power plant and fuel you may only use once or twice a year.
The ideal solution would be if the military allowed merchant ships to carry nuclear bomb pumped laser missiles, but I don't think that's going to happen
For a merchant ship a limited shots CLC system seems like a better use of resources than a much larger amount of space wasted carrying a power plant and fuel you may only use once or twice a year.
The ideal solution would be if the military allowed merchant ships to carry nuclear bomb pumped laser missiles, but I don't think that's going to happen
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
The EP is 250MW, which is pretty hefty for merchant weapons in MT or FF&S. T20 seems to fall back to CT uncertainty on exactly how much energy per shot and how many shots a weapon produces.
I don't know what efficiency level is specified for MT/FF&S weapons. Each 1MW input from ship power produces how much beam output power? Without knowing that we can't determine cartridge size for an equivalent pulse, and don't know how many cartridges can be crammed into a 1dT autoloading magazine.
I don't know what efficiency level is specified for MT/FF&S weapons. Each 1MW input from ship power produces how much beam output power? Without knowing that we can't determine cartridge size for an equivalent pulse, and don't know how many cartridges can be crammed into a 1dT autoloading magazine.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Then just try comparing similar weapons from the different systems.
i.e. a TL12- laser in CT/HG/T20 requires 1EP.
What is the equivalent weapon in TNE? Don't worry about what 1EP is really, since it was probably just made up anyway
i.e. a TL12- laser in CT/HG/T20 requires 1EP.
What is the equivalent weapon in TNE? Don't worry about what 1EP is really, since it was probably just made up anyway
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
1 EP = 250MW works for gravitic handwave propulsion, as I showed elsewhere (seems to operate at a 30% efficiency turning input power into delta-KE).
It doesn't work for electronics. I can't imagine acres of vacc tubes sucking up 250MW!
There is no clear conversion for CT/HG/T20 weapons to TNE/T4, and I don't have enough info about the latter to try.
It doesn't work for electronics. I can't imagine acres of vacc tubes sucking up 250MW!
There is no clear conversion for CT/HG/T20 weapons to TNE/T4, and I don't have enough info about the latter to try.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
This is a question I have always had. Why would lasers have no recoil. It would seem that E=mc^2 and Newton's Third Law would mean a laser capable of doing damage in a near instantaneous period of time would have SOME kick?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yes, good question Fritz88. This thread has gotten a little long and I'm not sure that's been brought up here yet. Anyway here's one writeup on the issue of the physics. Not for Traveller specifically but the ideas apply...
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8976/l_recoil.htm" target="_blank">
Lasers and Recoil? A Physics Approach</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/8976/l_recoil.htm" target="_blank">
Lasers and Recoil? A Physics Approach</a>
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Good discussion, though its point of departure is based on the data in a game book. I will have to try and recall who it was I met who worked on the THEL.... Maybe they have some insight into the amount of energy created. (Though, there it is a slightly longer pulse than a viable boarding weapon.)
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Yeah, someone who has first hand knowledge of big lasers would be a good source to tap. My only experience is a small lab laser and while it was securely fastened to the table that was just so the beam would stay where you wanted, I don't think it had any significant recoil
Of course it wouldn't have made a very effective weapon either
