Looking for TL -16 worlds

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bishop Odo:
Somehow, an attitude has evolved that by keeping tech levels low, i.e. below 15, and financial rewards minimal at best, the game is enriched because of need, not duty or desire.

My opposition to the existence of TL 16 worlds in the OTU has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with my attitude to the technologies themselves. It has everything to do with making the OTU an internally consistent gaming background. Note the pronoun. One particular gaming background, not the only possible gaming background and not even the very best gaming background possible (although that would be nice too).

Fully mature TL 16 worlds that are not somehow isolated from the rest of the Imperium break the previously established universe with no adequate reason for doing so. It's really that simple. It's not about whether a TU with TL 16 worlds is better than one without them or not. It's whether such a universe is the OTU or not that is the issue. IMO it ought not to be.

Hans

 

[shield]

Re Imperial max tech level debate.

The TL15 limit seems to be classic traveller. By the time of the rebellion, it seems that GDW was starting to let the imperium advance. They admitted in a Q&A session printed in the travellers digest (from memory) that certain old sectors (Illiesh, Massilia to man but 2) had an additional +1TL bonus sector wide to reflect their high degree of civilisation.

Yes its true that these TL16 world are not fully mature, they are starting to develop TL16 industries / products (probably in specific areas). Remember the Imperium can buy TL16 robots / computer parts from the Hivers.

There have been posts on the TNE mailing list (secret imperial projects etc.) and some ship designs including imperial warships, that are TL15/16 hybrids as the Imperium attempted to design full TL16 ships.

Cheers
Richard

 

[jzeitlin]

I think an important question to ask is whether a TL advance is one of kind, or merely degree - and whether some advances in kind are more significant than others. Ken Pick does an analysis of tech levels in an article at Freelance Traveller, and makes a good case for certain tech levels - including TL G (16) - being less a matter of hardware/software/technique than of outlook - how people perceive themselves in their society, and their society in general. Ken's article defines the change in outlook fairly well for the early tech levels, but not for TL G - maybe part of the problem is that this change in outlook hasn't been defined, and when it is, we can have an honest evaluation of what TL G+ actually means.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by RichardP:
Yes its true that these TL16 world are not fully mature, they are starting to develop TL16 industries / products (probably in specific areas). Remember the Imperium can buy TL16 robots / computer parts from the Hivers.

There have been posts on the TNE mailing list (secret imperial projects etc.) and some ship designs including imperial warships, that are TL15/16 hybrids as the Imperium attempted to design full TL16 ships.

I have no objection to the introduction of a few worlds that are slowly edging into TL 16 around 1120. As sources of a few 'poor man's artifacts' -- advanced, cutting-edge prototypes -- they are a fine source of plot devices. Much less do I object to the Darrians beginning to finally figuring out some of their Old Darrian artifacts and sharing them with the Regency in 1202. What I object to is the retroactive introduction of dozens of fully mature TL 16 worlds in Knightfall and the writeup of Vincennes in MTJ. IMO they were contrary to the established canon of the time.

Hans

 

[savage]

Do you really trust the Imperium to produce the truth in the Grand Survey? If your the Emperor and there is a TL20+ world in your Imperium that is unaligned how do you contend with it?

Well you send a peace fleet of course! And when the fleet jumps in and is rendered powerless at jump point. The residents say "go away kid" how do you handle it? Well send them a benevolent message of peace, modify the survey, slap a color coding on it and/or make it appear rediculously dangerous/useless. Kill any opportunity for trade.

That's just one example of how a broken survey might actually be an adventure seed. On a TL16 water world and a high population. Perhaps their not all air breathers?

Savage

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by Bishop Odo:
I believe that economics is the driving force to increase the tech level of a planet. The question was raised, why is a planet TL-21? There is a market or need for its products. That's why I find this monolithic idea of TL deceiving. DGP in their World Builder book has some expanded categories that really help conceptualize the tech level of a planet, but once again how much information is practical.

I was reading that Vincennes, Mega-traveller Journal no.3, has trouble selling some TL16 products, i.e. Starships, Robots, and Computers because of TL lag, repair and parts replacement. In MTU the rebellion never happen so, Various Vincennes mega corps, the Imperial Government, and yes, the Darrians are looking to invest in education as well as industrial capabilities and raise the TL of Glistern to 16 and other planets, in the hopes of removing the TL lag and increasing its market possibilities. Then TL 17 becomes economically feasible.

Vernor Vinge addresses this sort of economic question in his "A Fire Upon The Deep" novel. He has the galaxy made up of a low tech level core, expanding out to ever higher tech levels (and eventually a barrier beyond which all creatures become effectively gods).

The way Vinge handles it, is he has the high TL worlds making products that can survive quite well (and even be well serviced at) lower TLs. For example, nanotech armour that grows back after it has been damaged.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by George Boyett:

AA89A44-G

10s of billions governed by Rep. Republic with a low law level!

Not mention 90% water!

Why do I have a feeling dueling is allowed for controlling social and population pressures?

Nah, with that tech level they can certainly build underwater cities. And probably floating ones too (in air and water).</font>[/QUOTE]Even with the tech, they still go for smaller residences and arcologies. There still be a high pop density for the cities and plexes.

Of course there is the possibility of big space habitats, which are included in the worlds pop.</font>[/QUOTE]_________________________________________________
According to High Passage Adventures Dethenes Technical Union consisted of three worlds, a non aligned state within the Imperium. They had banded together in the Long Night, no thanks to Sylea/Terra/ or Vland, and survived.
In a history of their world description, their outlook is rather insular. Arcologies below water, as well as one dozen orbital habitats. Population of also 10 million robots!

Her collapse data is found on BARD/TNE site here:
http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/opal/opal3023.html.
just thought I'd add this back into the topic!
heretically yours,