Q: Order of Deneb, Order of the Spinward Marches, Order of the Third Imperium

[TamsinP]

That is interesting, as it differs from British usage, AFAIK (which is what most English speakers tend to default to). In British usage (IIRC), the Military Title comes first, then the full (highest) Noble title, such as General Lord Cornwallis, or General The Viscount Dundee.

That is correct.

I'd add that in British usage only the highest title would be used, but initials of any orders of knighthood would be appended after the title, followed by initials of any decorations. Subsidiary and lower titles would only be given during a (very) formal introduction.
If the name of the peer is included, the order would be [rank title][name][highest noble rank][knighthoods*][decorations*][appointments*], eg. Field Marshall Bernard Law Montogomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, KG, GCB, DSO, PC, DL
(KG = Knight Companion of the Order of the Garter; GCB = Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath; DSO = Distinguished Service Order; PC = member of the Privy Council; DL = Deputy Lieutenant**)

* NB - UK ones only
** of Southampton

 

[AlHazred]

I really like the idea of the (canonical) Order of the Victor for military victories. The people who would get it would be the guys in command, most likely officers, perhaps awarded to the rare NCO who went way beyond what was expected of them; they would most likely get a promotion to officer in shor. This mirrors the actual UK Orders, as IIRC there's one for all military members and one for officers only.

 

[TamsinP]

I really like the idea of the (canonical) Order of the Victor for military victories. The people who would get it would be the guys in command, most likely officers, perhaps awarded to the rare NCO who went way beyond what was expected of them; they would most likely get a promotion to officer in shor. This mirrors the actual UK Orders, as IIRC there's one for all military members and one for officers only.

Not quite correct. From my earlier comment on page 3:

For example, in the UK there are two Orders of Knighthood which have military and civil divisions - the Most Honourable Order of the Bath (senior military officers) and the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (other military); there are differences in insignia and regalia between ranks and divisions.

NCOs (and junior officers) are more likely to be awarded one of the lower, non-knighthood ranks (Member, Officer, Commander) of the Order of the British Empire.

Order of the British Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Senior officers (OF-8+ for the Knighthood ranks; OF-7 for Companion) generally get appointed to the Order of the Bath:

Order of the Bath - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[whulorigan]

Not quite correct. From my earlier comment on page 3:



NCOs (and junior officers) are more likely to be awarded one of the lower, non-knighthood ranks (Member, Officer, Commander) of the Order of the British Empire.

Order of the British Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Senior officers (OF-8+ for the Knighthood ranks; OF-7 for Companion) generally get appointed to the Order of the Bath:

Order of the Bath - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe there is also still the possibility of one receiving one of the lower non-Knighthood ranks of an Order and also simultaneously receiving a Bachelor Knighthood along with it.

 

[TamsinP]

I believe there is also still the possibility of one receiving one of the lower non-Knighthood ranks of an Order and also simultaneously receiving a Bachelor Knighthood along with it.

No - all knighthoods in the UK are awarded in one of 6 orders (Garter, Thistle, Bath, St Michael & St George, Royal Victorian Order, Order of the British Empire). All but Garter and Thistle have non-knight ranks. There are no knighthoods outside of those orders.

It is very rare for someone to receive more than one honour in the same list. What can happen is that someone gets awarded, for instance, a MBE then later get an OBE, later still a CBE, even later a KBE and finally a GBE (although such a progression, particularly to the knight ranks, would be very rare).

 

[whulorigan]

No - all knighthoods in the UK are awarded in one of 6 orders (Garter, Thistle, Bath, St Michael & St George, Royal Victorian Order, Order of the British Empire). All but Garter and Thistle have non-knight ranks. There are no knighthoods outside of those orders.

It is very rare for someone to receive more than one honour in the same list. What can happen is that someone gets awarded, for instance, a MBE then later get an OBE, later still a CBE, even later a KBE and finally a GBE (although such a progression, particularly to the knight ranks, would be very rare).

I am confused then.
To what do the following refer, or are these articles in error:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Bachelor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom#Knighthood
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_knights_bachelor

 

[Condottiere]

If there are no tangible benefits for a knightbood, it most cases it's like a participation trophy.

It then becomes a question as to if, and how, you leverage it.

I always thought that if it's a specific order, it's the equivalent of being part of a private club, most demonstratively, that of the Garter.

 

[TamsinP]

I am confused then.
To what do the following refer, or are these articles in error:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Bachelor
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders,_decorations,_and_medals_of_the_United_Kingdom#Knighthood
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_knights_bachelor

I stand corrected; the UK does have Knights Bachelor. However, I don't believe there has ever been a case of someone receiving one at the same time as receiving a lower rank in one of the orders.
I suspect that my assumption was because all female knights are DBEs (Dame of the Order of the British Empire).

 

[TamsinP]

If there are no tangible benefits for a knightbood, it most cases it's like a participation trophy.

It then becomes a question as to if, and how, you leverage it.

I always thought that if it's a specific order, it's the equivalent of being part of a private club, most demonstratively, that of the Garter.

In most cases, for the person receiving a knighthood it is simply recognition for their work. It can be leveraged - often they'll be approached to become non-executive directors on boards of companies. They'll also be invited to attend at least one garden party at Buckingham Palace.

Knighthood in one of the senior orders means you will almost certainly be invited to major royal occasions - coronations, weddings, funerals. They are also expected to attend the order's annual church service (in the full regalia).

 

[whulorigan]

Knighthood in one of the senior orders means you will almost certainly be invited to major royal occasions - coronations, weddings, funerals. They are also expected to attend the order's annual church service (in the full regalia).

I think it would be interesting to speculate on what particular duties and expectations (and/or simple privileges and events) the various Imperial and Domain Orders publish and promote. And in The Imperium (and depending upon the particular Order), they might not necessarily be just a high-status social organization. There may be real tangible Imperium-wide (trans-Extrality-line) benefits and privileges (and responsibilities) accorded to particular Orders.

 

[whulorigan]

I stand corrected; the UK does have Knights Bachelor. However, I don't believe there has ever been a case of someone receiving one at the same time as receiving a lower rank in one of the orders.
I suspect that my assumption was because all female knights are DBEs (Dame of the Order of the British Empire).

That need not be the case in the Imperial system, of course. There certainly could be "Dames Bachelor" (should they prefer the "archaic form", of course ).

 

[McPerth]

Well, ITTR some specific privileges (and duties) for Imperial Nobles (and this includes Imperial Knights), but I'm unable to find the references right now:

• They are tried by peers in case of being accudes of a crime. That means they are only subject to Imperial justice, and any planetary government should turn them to it if accused of a crime.
• They may carry weapons, despite LL (though this can be limited)
• They are elegible for some offices (as in MoJ), albeit this will rarely (if ever) apply in game
• They are seen as Imperial represetnatives in most planets and ships, with all the good and bad things this can mean (Dur Telmon and his troupe are once asked to investigate a crime on a starship just due to this, IIRC)

 

[AlHazred]

I'm realizing in order to make more use of the Orders, I'm going to have to decide IMTU who the various Sector Dukes are, and who are the guys in charge of the Army/Navy/Marines, etc. Those are most likely to be various Sovereigns of most of the Orders, I'd imagine.

 

[McPerth]

but I'm unable to find the references right now:

Found at last: TD#9, pages 29-33. The article is called Noblesse Oblige

 

[whulorigan]

I'm realizing in order to make more use of the Orders, I'm going to have to decide IMTU who the various Sector Dukes are, and who are the guys in charge of the Army/Navy/Marines, etc. Those are most likely to be various Sovereigns of most of the Orders, I'd imagine.

There is a distinction between a Sovereign of an Order and a Grand Master of an Order.

The Sovereign of an Order is the "font" from whom the dignity of the order proceeds, i.e. as the name implies, generally a titled individual of "Sovereign" rank. Without the Sovereign the order ceases to exist. In the Imperium that would be the Emperor or one of the Archduke's (who are granted that privilege by the Emperor). Without the Emperor there is no Imperium (officially; it is in name only), and without an Archduke their is no effective Domain (merely an administrative apparatus for the region). The dignity of the realm and demesne rests with the title-bearer. Local Orders within a Sector or Subsector, even if they are overseen by a Duke, are still likely under the ultimate Sovereignty of the Archduke or possibly the Emperor, as the Duke's own dignity is derivative from the higher Sovereign Overlord from whom the title gains its legitimacy.

The Grand Master of an Order is an appointed Officer of the Order who is head of the Order, and normally a member of the Order of the highest rank. The Sovereign of the Order may be the Grand Master if he is himself a member of the Order, or the Sovereign may appoint the Grand Master from among it's membership.

 

[AlHazred]

There is a distinction between a Sovereign of an Order and a Grand Master of an Order.

The Sovereign of an Order is the "font" from whom the dignity of the order proceeds, i.e. as the name implies, generally a titled individual of "Sovereign" rank. Without the Sovereign the order ceases to exist. In the Imperium that would be the Emperor or one of the Archduke's (who are granted that privilege by the Emperor). Without the Emperor there is no Imperium (officially; it is in name only), and without an Archduke their is no effective Domain (merely an administrative apparatus for the region). The dignity of the realm and demesne rests with the title-bearer. Local Orders within a Sector or Subsector, even if they are overseen by a Duke, are still likely under the ultimate Sovereignty of the Archduke or possibly the Emperor, as the Duke's own dignity is derivative from the higher Sovereign Overlord from whom the title gains its legitimacy.

The Grand Master of an Order is an appointed Officer of the Order who is head of the Order, and normally a member of the Order of the highest rank. The Sovereign of the Order may be the Grand Master if he is himself a member of the Order, or the Sovereign may appoint the Grand Master from among it's membership.

But is there a reference for Sector Dukes and such? I didn't find it in the wiki...

 

[mike wightman]

There is no such thing as a sector duke.
A sector duke is a subsector duke considered to be a first among equals.

Subsector dukes owe their position to the Emperor alone, and each duke is effectively acting in the Emperor's name.

 

[AlHazred]

There is no such thing as a sector duke.
A sector duke is a subsector duke considered to be a first among equals.

Subsector dukes owe their position to the Emperor alone, and each duke is effectively acting in the Emperor's name

Okay, is there a listing of Subsector dukes circa 1100?

 

[whulorigan]

Okay, is there a listing of Subsector dukes circa 1100?

It probably depends on the Sector in question. We're you interested in a particular region?

 

[TamsinP]

Okay, is there a listing of Subsector dukes circa 1100?

There's this, but it's incomplete:

Subsector Duke - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com