Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
That would be Traveller's cartridge pistol, which has a range of twenty and four dice in Mongoose Second, though 2d6+3 in Mongoose First.
Maybe a Snub Pistol example
- Thread starter gchuck
- Start date
Enoki
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If the shells operated on the high-low pressure principle like say the US 40mm grenade launcher or German PAW 600 did then the recoil would be far less to begin with.
The gas release is done slower lowering acceleration so recoil is far less. Add in maybe a grip of some sort that compensates further, or the like and you end up with a zero recoil pistol. It wouldn't take too much more tech to manage this.
Oh, I don't like the Judge either. I think it's more of a gimmick than anything else...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I vaguely recall one feature was supposedly being able to use normal heavy pistol bullets; for some reason I'm thinking forty five calibre, or a magnum.
The other being snake sniping.
The other being snake sniping.
The Judge revolver can also fire .45 Colt. This is an old "trick" as .45 Colt has the same chamber diameter as .410 Shotgun; but the since the chamber must be both long enough for the .410 and strong enough for the .45 Colt, weapons that could safely manage the stunt were few and far between.
AFAIK, the Judge is the first repeating firearm to safely use both.
The problem is that the rifling does not have a fast enough twist to stabilize the .45 bullet; limiting practical accuracy to slightly greater than smoothbore ranges. I am unaware of accuracy tests with .410 slugs.
Ironically, .410 shot fired from the Judge does not spread significantly more than from a smoothbore due to the very slow rifling twist (shot from standard rifled barrels tends to spread very quickly due to centripetal force), making it a "long range" snake blaster.
AFAIK, the Judge is the first repeating firearm to safely use both.
The problem is that the rifling does not have a fast enough twist to stabilize the .45 bullet; limiting practical accuracy to slightly greater than smoothbore ranges. I am unaware of accuracy tests with .410 slugs.
Ironically, .410 shot fired from the Judge does not spread significantly more than from a smoothbore due to the very slow rifling twist (shot from standard rifled barrels tends to spread very quickly due to centripetal force), making it a "long range" snake blaster.
The Judge is novel, and can make for spectacular demos, but it's not really practical for anything serious.
It seems counterintuitive, but services have been switching to the 5.56MM AR-15 cartridge partly because of the over penetration issues, especially in the urban environment. Running around with a high powered rifle in close spaces doesn't seem to make much sense.
But its round behaves much better because it tends to break up when it hits things, including things like dry wall and the like. And there are better bullet designs (it's not all just 5.56 BALL ammo) specifically for this use case. It a much better performer in this space than the 9mm submachine guns of the 80's and 90's. Shooting a 9mm hollowpoint in to drywall or one with insulation tends to prevent expansion, which makes it just a 9mm round punching holes in to all sorts of things.
The 5.56 is not perfect, I wouldn't want to be directly on the other side of a wall with someone blazing away with one, but most walls are actually 2 sheets of dry wall, the bullet tend to be frangible just because of it's spin, and it's also lightweight. All of these things conspire to slow it down, and break it up.
It seems counterintuitive, but services have been switching to the 5.56MM AR-15 cartridge partly because of the over penetration issues, especially in the urban environment. Running around with a high powered rifle in close spaces doesn't seem to make much sense.
But its round behaves much better because it tends to break up when it hits things, including things like dry wall and the like. And there are better bullet designs (it's not all just 5.56 BALL ammo) specifically for this use case. It a much better performer in this space than the 9mm submachine guns of the 80's and 90's. Shooting a 9mm hollowpoint in to drywall or one with insulation tends to prevent expansion, which makes it just a 9mm round punching holes in to all sorts of things.
The 5.56 is not perfect, I wouldn't want to be directly on the other side of a wall with someone blazing away with one, but most walls are actually 2 sheets of dry wall, the bullet tend to be frangible just because of it's spin, and it's also lightweight. All of these things conspire to slow it down, and break it up.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If you categorize assault rifles as carbines, cutting down that barrel even further must result in a subcarbine.
At some point militaries came to the conclusion that submachineguns weren't cutting it anymore, and the solution appears to have been the assault subcarbine, which uses the same calibre as the assault rifle.
I always come back to Pournelle when it comes to battle rifles, as the logical evolution once everyone has access to body armour, and way before Afghanistan, that ranges are going to increase, with a calibre between old and new NATO rounds.
At some point militaries came to the conclusion that submachineguns weren't cutting it anymore, and the solution appears to have been the assault subcarbine, which uses the same calibre as the assault rifle.
I always come back to Pournelle when it comes to battle rifles, as the logical evolution once everyone has access to body armour, and way before Afghanistan, that ranges are going to increase, with a calibre between old and new NATO rounds.
Isn't this essentially the definition of a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW), or are there other distinctives?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There may be further definitions, but the most prominent one at the moment seems to be a specialized fivish millimetre bullet in a large capacity magazine and a compact(ed) personal side arm, supposedly for rear area and non combat personnel.
I think it's again a question of the expected engagement range.
I think it's again a question of the expected engagement range.
The M16 is an assault rifle, with a 20" barrel. The CAR-15 had the barrel cut down to 10", and is considered a submachine gun. The current M4 series has a 14.7" barrel, and is considered a carbine. The M4 has effectively replaced the M16 as the standard deployment arm.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I wonder if this may just be simpler.
In Traveller we use specific terminology for specific weapon designs; the real world has no such limiting factors. A weapon can be described because of the cartridge it fires, the role it plays, how it's carried, how it's deployed for use, and in the case of Personal Defense Weapon, even applied to weapons designed and used long before the term was invented. Many of the terms overlap and further define specific mission roles the weapons were designed for.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The concept has always existed, separate from sidearms that frontline troops carry.
In more or less modern times, it's moved on from revolvers and pistols, to carbines and submachineguns.
The real change is that rear areas are now threatened constantly, whether from special forces or guerillas.
In more or less modern times, it's moved on from revolvers and pistols, to carbines and submachineguns.
The real change is that rear areas are now threatened constantly, whether from special forces or guerillas.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Insurgencies tend to Not Have Front Lines ... in which case, there are no "rear areas" protected by the "front" of battle.
Spot on regarding the over penetration and internal use - I was actually part of some research into this which led to the change for my agency at the time switching from the MP5 platform to M4 across the board.
Which is reflected in current Western nation (primarily US, but a few others as well) shift from the 5.56x45mm cartridge towards a 6-7mm cartridge. .300BLK being one example in limited use, and the DOD putting (for now) serious effort into 6.8mm going forward.
However, I'm not holding my breath given the logistics of ammo replacement once the bean counters start doing the math...
By technical terms the CAR-15 was NOT a submachine gun. One of the key definitions of submachine guns is the use of a pistol-caliber cartridge.
An interesting example of this was the WW II M1 Carbine - intended for support troops, but which found favor with front line units in certain areas, due to the reduced weight and increased ammunition capacity.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Definitely not a snub pistol, but seems relevant given the above perspective.
SIG-Sauer hybrid steel/brass cased ammo 6.8x51mm
General Dynamics polymer cased ammo 6.8x51mm
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There's some form of development between technological level seven assault rifle, and technological level ten advanced combat rifle, which I'll presume includes some form of heat stabilized caseless ammunition.
In terms of Traveller game mechanics, the assault rifle holds one of the sweet spots, two hundred metres range, fifty metres short range with laser sight, long range four hundred metres, extreme range eight hundred; scope hundred metres plus.
Snub range is five metres, same as a body pistol.
Just noticed a shot pistol with a two metre range.
In terms of Traveller game mechanics, the assault rifle holds one of the sweet spots, two hundred metres range, fifty metres short range with laser sight, long range four hundred metres, extreme range eight hundred; scope hundred metres plus.
Snub range is five metres, same as a body pistol.
Just noticed a shot pistol with a two metre range.
