That was in 1114. That doesn't reduce her effective service life much. A hiatus from 1048 to 1090 would have helped a lot more.
Of course, the refurbishment would have helped.
Hans
"Maybe we'll fix that."
- Thread starter whartung
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Of course, the refurbishment would have helped.
Hans
All I know is that there is Zero Percent chance of a TL 15 hull being operational after 2,000 years, even with periods of assumed mothballed downtime.
If I assumed that that meant a TL 15 ship wouldn't even survive a well-maintained thousand year service life, then the half life is much less. At the most, the half life might be two (okay maybe three) centuries... And that's AT THE MOST. On the other hand, machines don't have a half life in the same sense as radioactive isotopes. I think they tend to have a more skewed curve, with most of them giving out sooner and a very few just lasting forever due to sheer luck in getting unusual and accidental high quality fittings. In that respect it's modeled more like a technological barrier than a maintenance barrier.
All else being equal, then, I would not put my money on the outside choice. I'd assume a shorter operational life.
If I assumed that that meant a TL 15 ship wouldn't even survive a well-maintained thousand year service life, then the half life is much less. At the most, the half life might be two (okay maybe three) centuries... And that's AT THE MOST. On the other hand, machines don't have a half life in the same sense as radioactive isotopes. I think they tend to have a more skewed curve, with most of them giving out sooner and a very few just lasting forever due to sheer luck in getting unusual and accidental high quality fittings. In that respect it's modeled more like a technological barrier than a maintenance barrier.
All else being equal, then, I would not put my money on the outside choice. I'd assume a shorter operational life.
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The USS Constitution (a sailing frigate) is still on active duty after 200 years and it is made of wood. There are Ancient Roman Roads that are still in regular use. War Starships are made from a meter thick plate of partially collapsed matter ... which is far tougher than a solid iron asteroid hull. What is the operational life of an asteroid?
IMO, These things could last forever with maintenance and an occasional overhaul.
IMO, These things could last forever with maintenance and an occasional overhaul.
As a museum ship. What does that prove?
But as we have ample evidence of, many of these ships don't last for even a century.
Hans
I don't know if that can be an indicative, as robots and starships are quite different, but in Book 8 Robots, the expected life of a TL 15 robot is about 85 years.
And the same can be said about HMS Victory, but none of those are operational, and so I think twy can't be counted. The fact of them to remain in active duty lists is a honor given to the ships, not a representation of their actual state of operativeness.
I know of no roman road still in regular use (and some of them go near Barcelona). The same path is used by nowdays roads, or even highways, and they have been used since roman times, but it's not the same road, being rebuilt over the elder road many times.
This can have (IMO) no ship equivalent to put as example, as roads are built on the same path and using the former one as a basis, but renewed and have no semblance to the former road once rebuild. Ships would be scrapped (difficult to do with a road) and another is built (also dificult to do that with a road, unless you want to chang the course).
Have to agree with Hans, the Constitution (or Victory, Edwin Fox, Warrior, Huscar etc) are not good examples, in fact there are no good examples (and even here, Constitution is exceptional, the life expectancy of an age of sail ship was about 60 years).
Nothing here on earth can give us an indication of how long a Traveller ship might last. We have nothing like the materials they're built of or the technology that goes in them. We have precious little idea what stresses the deep space environment they operate in will place on them and we can't even begin to guess at what jump space will do to them.
So, short of some definitive canonical statement, we can have Traveller ships last as for as long or short as we want
(I'm very definitely in the "long" camp, but that's just me)However, the Constitution, Victory etc do provide us some useful information. They were designed and built during a long period of stable technology. The Sovereign of the Seas (a 102 gun first rate) was built in 1637. She would not have been of place at Trafalgar (about 200 years later) and all the design characteristics of Victory can be found in her.
Traveller features long periods of stable technology, we can expect the designs to have a long life, regardless of the lifespan of the ships themselves.
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And I'm pretty sure there is one Barracks-Emperors-Era rider still operating in Deneb sector, on active duty as a colonial customs ship. But I think it's a fluke, so to speak.
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Actually, No. She's still taken out and sailed.
Several wooden ships have service lives well over 100 years. They actually last longer than metal hulls.
What scientific data causes you to "know" that %?
Authorial Voice statement in Darrians contrasting the hardiness of generic TL15 ships and the TL16 ships of the Old Darrians.
Hans
However their longevity tends to be of the "faithful old axe" variety (only had three new heads and four new handles). The simplicity (compared to a modern vessel) of the design and construction allows for repeated replacement of entire parts of the ship. However the vast majority of wooden ships did not last that long, their usual life was around the 60 year mark, when the combined effects of wood rot and general wear made their repair uneconomic. As I said though, they are not good examples for Traveller ships, we have no good real world example unfortunately.
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The age of building things to last expired early TL7. These days and into the future engineering is about designing to a pre-determined life span (referance Toyota car engineering as an example). I'm with Hans, but for the reason that over-engineering craft to last centuries does not make economic sense.
If the customer is a business (merchant captain for example), how much lifespan is he prepared to pay for, 'cause that multi-century ship, whilst definitely possible, will outlast the working life of the guy that making the decision.
IMTU commercial ships last around 80-100 years (twice the period of the standard 40 year mortgage) and toward the end of that time, the hull is showing fatigue from entering gravity wells, micrometeorites, what-have-you. And the working parts, bearings, slides, valves, pumps, etc are all designed to last roughly 10 to 40 years before they need replacing. By the time a commercial ships is nearing 100, it has been rebuilt 2-3 times, with the time between needed rebuilds getting more frequent. Or breakdowns getting more frequent. Either of which starts making the ship un-economic, driving the accountant to start insisting on you buy a newer model (a bit like cars).
Military ships will have a longer life span, being designed to take abuse & receiving excellent maintenance in order to keep them at combat readiness. But TL and doctrine changes will ensure they are relegated to 2nd line ships or the reserve around every century or so.
For example, Fighting Ships has it that the 200Kton Kokirrak class BB is being phased out of service and the 200Kton Plankwell class BB is being moved from the Marches to the Strategic Reserve in Corridor Sector. The book is set circa 1112? Both ships are TL15 BB's & I'm picking the Imperium reached TL15 late 900's? (Not sure on that, but don't think I'm too far out. ?)
If the customer is a business (merchant captain for example), how much lifespan is he prepared to pay for, 'cause that multi-century ship, whilst definitely possible, will outlast the working life of the guy that making the decision.
IMTU commercial ships last around 80-100 years (twice the period of the standard 40 year mortgage) and toward the end of that time, the hull is showing fatigue from entering gravity wells, micrometeorites, what-have-you. And the working parts, bearings, slides, valves, pumps, etc are all designed to last roughly 10 to 40 years before they need replacing. By the time a commercial ships is nearing 100, it has been rebuilt 2-3 times, with the time between needed rebuilds getting more frequent. Or breakdowns getting more frequent. Either of which starts making the ship un-economic, driving the accountant to start insisting on you buy a newer model (a bit like cars).
Military ships will have a longer life span, being designed to take abuse & receiving excellent maintenance in order to keep them at combat readiness. But TL and doctrine changes will ensure they are relegated to 2nd line ships or the reserve around every century or so.
For example, Fighting Ships has it that the 200Kton Kokirrak class BB is being phased out of service and the 200Kton Plankwell class BB is being moved from the Marches to the Strategic Reserve in Corridor Sector. The book is set circa 1112? Both ships are TL15 BB's & I'm picking the Imperium reached TL15 late 900's? (Not sure on that, but don't think I'm too far out. ?)
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I think Naval (wet) vessels are the wrong comparison for useful/maximum service life of space craft. Aircraft might be closer in operation and complication. In that field one airplane leaps readily to mind.
The Douglas DC-3, famous for it's endurance with examples still flying regular service last I heard. A not uncommon observation is that the DC-3 has proven over the years it can have a virtually unlimited service life with standard care and simple preventive maintenance practices. Not of the "faithful old axe" variety.
Certainly an exception to the rule though. In my TU the Type A is the DC-3 of the stars with many lasting over a century. It is one of those rare examples of getting things just right.
Even the much vaunted ubiquitous Type S is cycled out of regular Scout service after about 10 years into the Detached Duty service for another 10 before being sold off for conversion or scrap, with some ending up as Seekers because they are cheap.
The larger and nearly as hard used Navy ships are cycled into the reserves or scrapped after 20 years at the most. Often less if they are active combatants.
In general the useful life (before maintenance gets too expensive or reliability is unsafe) in mtu is:
About 10-20 years for military ships. The Type S is often kept operational beyond this with multiple systems replaced or patched together salvage.
Anywhere from 20-40 years being typical for civilian ships like the Type Y, though they often get sold on sooner as the original owner tires of having the "old" and out of fashion model.
Between 40-80 years for commercial ships. The Type A is widely know to operate for twice as long with standard maintenance if not abused, with many purchased second hand at 40 years old with a new 40 year old mortgage at half the original cost.
The Douglas DC-3, famous for it's endurance with examples still flying regular service last I heard. A not uncommon observation is that the DC-3 has proven over the years it can have a virtually unlimited service life with standard care and simple preventive maintenance practices. Not of the "faithful old axe" variety.
Certainly an exception to the rule though. In my TU the Type A is the DC-3 of the stars with many lasting over a century. It is one of those rare examples of getting things just right.
Even the much vaunted ubiquitous Type S is cycled out of regular Scout service after about 10 years into the Detached Duty service for another 10 before being sold off for conversion or scrap, with some ending up as Seekers because they are cheap.
The larger and nearly as hard used Navy ships are cycled into the reserves or scrapped after 20 years at the most. Often less if they are active combatants.
In general the useful life (before maintenance gets too expensive or reliability is unsafe) in mtu is:
About 10-20 years for military ships. The Type S is often kept operational beyond this with multiple systems replaced or patched together salvage.
Anywhere from 20-40 years being typical for civilian ships like the Type Y, though they often get sold on sooner as the original owner tires of having the "old" and out of fashion model.
Between 40-80 years for commercial ships. The Type A is widely know to operate for twice as long with standard maintenance if not abused, with many purchased second hand at 40 years old with a new 40 year old mortgage at half the original cost.
Few of the DC3's in service now, if any, are of the original run. It was in production for a decade, 1936-1945, and an upgrade in 1949. Most are from later (1940-45 runs)
Consider also: they get their engines rebuilt every few thousand hours of operation.
Naval vessels are the correct model for the drive durabilities; they have similar operational profiles.
Aircraft are much better models for the hulls. As of 2008, 1400 or so were still airworthy... of 16,000 built. Under 10%.... and 2-3 per year are being lost, about 1% per year. And most operators are looking to retire the often very tired airframes.
Consider also: they get their engines rebuilt every few thousand hours of operation.
Naval vessels are the correct model for the drive durabilities; they have similar operational profiles.
Aircraft are much better models for the hulls. As of 2008, 1400 or so were still airworthy... of 16,000 built. Under 10%.... and 2-3 per year are being lost, about 1% per year. And most operators are looking to retire the often very tired airframes.
How many Iowa Class Battleships rusted away during normal use and were scrapped because the hull couldn't be repaired?
Starship hulls are the equivalent of battleship hulls in strength. Imagine a DC-3 with the hull of a battleship.
Modern vehicles 'wear out' because advancing TLs make them obsolete. For better or worse, that is not an issue in Traveller.
Starship hulls are the equivalent of battleship hulls in strength. Imagine a DC-3 with the hull of a battleship.
Modern vehicles 'wear out' because advancing TLs make them obsolete. For better or worse, that is not an issue in Traveller.
I remember a documentary about the final operational voyage of the Ark Royal and an interviewer was asking why the ship needed to be scrapped. The captain explained that while the hull could be reconditioned, the electrical circuitry was worn out and to replace it you'd have to literally tear the hull apart to get at it. Meaning that refitting it would cost more than building a new ship. Even if the hull is sound, refitting the equipment inside it can often be uneconomic.
And any way, we currently have nothing that operates in the environment of deep space, so no direct comparisons are probably possible. However I have been thinking about it and I can think of one potential real world comparison: the financing of industrial plant.
Most industrial plant is financed over a period roughly equal to one fifth to one third of its first use lifespan. A few big ticket items such a multicolour printing presses run to one half, but they have to run 24/7 to pay for themselves. Assuming financing in the 3rd Imperium is run the same way (a big if I admit) then given a 40 year mortgage and the ship being one of those big ticket items that run 24/7, you get a first use life of about 80 years. On top of this you can expect a second use life (about 70% make it to second use) of about half the first use and allowing for good maintenance a third use of about the same (roughly 20-30% will make it to the third use). So that gives normal life around 120 years, stretching to 160 if you're careful and keep up the maintenance.
Just to throw some fuel on the fire...
USCGC Storis WMEC-38.
Keel Laid down 1941, commissioned 1942. Decomissioned 2007.
A buddy served aboard her. She and her sister ship had NOT aged well; in 2006, a man dropped a breaker bar in a hull-side passage... and it broke through the double hull. She was patched underway by the crew, as was her sister ship when a man put his foot through the hull on a slip-and-fall.
USCGC Storis WMEC-38.
Keel Laid down 1941, commissioned 1942. Decomissioned 2007.
A buddy served aboard her. She and her sister ship had NOT aged well; in 2006, a man dropped a breaker bar in a hull-side passage... and it broke through the double hull. She was patched underway by the crew, as was her sister ship when a man put his foot through the hull on a slip-and-fall.
A modern CVN has a life expectancy of 50 years, HMS Caroline was commissioned in 1914 and remains in excellent condition at Belfast today. Ships can last an exceptionally long time, but most don't. The rare example of extreme longevity is not a good indication of normal lifespan. These are usually due to freak circumstances that extend their lives to the point where they become "historic" and their preservation becomes divorced from economic realities.
Naw, aircraft are rickety eggshells. Starships (MT) have hulls that make 20th century MBTs look anemic.
So?
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