Merchant cruisers, the Millenium Falcon, and the profit imperative: a rant of sorts

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Ptah:
Which should allow 500 dton+ of cargo for J-3, 2G ship. Pretty darn good.

What say you BGG?

That's getting closer to how I would do business.

 

[shadowdragon]

I wouldn't call it "hot bunking", AFAIK IRW the crew of a merchant ship are bunked in a dorm or barracks type room, multiple bunkbeds, two high, 10 or so per room sharing one not-so-fresh bath facility. only officers, command officers I think, would have their own staterooms. even the first mate and bottom rung officers still have to share a room. anyone ex-merchant marine here?

military ships kinda just shove bunks where ever they fit don't they?

everyone seems so hot on the drop tank idea, what about collapsable cargo bays outside the main hull? essentially make an IRL container ship one would think. if they are empty, fold em up to reduce volume.

 

[Golan2072]

Revised design:

Ship: Leviathan
Class: Leviathan
Type: Exploratory Trader
Architect: Bilstein Yards
Tech Level: 13
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">USP
MC-A4323E2-000000-60004-0 MCr1,250.3 1.8 KTons
Bat Bear 1 1 Crew: 27
Bat 1 1 TL: 13</pre>[/QUOTE]Cargo: 523.5 Passengers: 8 Low: 8 Fuel: 594 EP: 54 Agility: 2 Shipboard Security Detail: 2
Craft: 1x 95T Shuttle
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1x 1G Maneuver Drive 1x Jump 1 Drive 1x Factor 1 Power Plant 1x Model/2bis Computer

Architects Fee: MCr12.2 Cost in Quantity: MCr1,006.9


Detailed Description
(High Guard Design)

HULL
1,800 tons standard, 25,200 cubic meters, Close Structure Configuration

CREW
11 Officers, 16 Ratings (11 Command, 3 Engineering, 3 Gunnery, 4 Flight, 4 Services, 2 Security)

ENGINEERING
Jump-3, 2G Manuever, Power plant-3, 54.000 EP, Agility 2
1x Jump-1 Backup, 1x 1G Manuever Backup, 1x Power plant-1 Backup

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/5fib Computer
1x Model/2bis Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
18 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
- 4x Dual Missile Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-4)
- 6x Dual Beam Laser Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-6),
- 8x Empty Hardpoints and 8 tons reserved for Fire Control

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
1x 95-ton Shuttle (Crew of 2, Cost of MCr33)

FUEL
594 Tons Fuel (3 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
24 Staterooms, 8 Low Berths, 8 Middle Passengers, 8 Low Passengers, 523.5 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr1,229.5 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr12.2), MCr973.9 in Quantity, plus MCr33 of Carried Craft

CONSTRUCTION TIME
130 Weeks Singly, 104 Weeks in Quantity

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chaos:
[qb]*snip*

Chaos, I understand the arguments you put forth, but keep in mind that I'm talking about the kinds of trading and investment that merchant-adventurers do in the TU, which while loads of fun still requires a bit of a wink-and-nod (or a vigorous handwave, if you prefer).</font>[/QUOTE]Sure, but I would expect the majority of NPC traders to act based on at least a minimum of common sense
Institutional investors (at least IRL) are nothing if not risk-averse. Ships like the Leviathan are, *if* they work out as proposed here, very long-term investments, feasible only if you have enough other ships to make up for the risk of losses. Even then the alternatives suggested by several posters here might be preferable.

 

[Commander Drax]

It's all a matter of scale, relating back to an earlier post in which it was stated that 200 ton traders with jump 2 capacity are not profitable, simply double the volume, ala the Solomani Sundowner Class Free Trader which is 400 tons, M-2 J-2 and extremely profitable and better suited to merchant exploratory missions than either the leviathan or the Lorimar with its 144 ton hold. It makes an ideal speculative trader, though passenger accomodations are cramped. I don't use MT anymore, so I knocked up a T20 version of it, which worked well in my games...

In other words existing designs can work well in a variety of roles, designing a new build ship from scratch to conduct exploratory trade whilst giving it an undersize cargo hold, is financial suicide, and sure to harm the profits of any larger corporation.

 

[Martin]

Shadowdragon

I wouldn't call it "hot bunking", AFAIK IRW the crew of a merchant ship are bunked in a dorm or barracks type room, multiple bunkbeds, two high, 10 or so per room sharing one not-so-fresh bath facility. only officers, command officers I think, would have their own staterooms. even the first mate and bottom rung officers still have to share a room. anyone ex-merchant marine here?

With 20 years IRW experience on over 30 merchant vessels I just wanted to add my credits worth. From cadet to Captain I have never had to share a cabin and serving in a large variety of ships, have usually had a "suite" of bedroom/dayroom and bathroom. Even the lowest rank amongst the crew usually have their own staterooms, though often with a shared bathroom between two cabins.
Obviously much of ship design depends on the size and the age of the vessel, but even small vessels, coasters of maybe 1500 tons will have individual accomodation in most cases.

Intensive internbational regulation also more or less legislated out much shared accomodation years ago.Even on cruise ships which by and large have the largest crew and most cramped merchant accomodations, rarely have more than 4 persons sharing

When you can spend months at sea the added value of privacy helps provide a much improved morale situation amongst the crew.

Anyway just responding to your question, the real merchants are out there and we play Traveller!!

 

[wordserpent]

I think the Leviathan class Merchant Cruisers were designed as fighting ships. If you read the data in the Leviathan adventure you'll note that Barrachai Technum's rival companies, both Mc clellan Factors and Arkesh spacers, practice 'cut-throat' trade policies in outrim void. Leviathan is armed to fight with other prospective traders and come home with a new market or some other sort of profit, such as prize ships and expensive spare parts.

 

[selunatic2397]

When my group ran this adventure we approached it more in keeping with Bill's views...this was a long time ago though!

We surveyed, met the natives, set up some "treaties" for future trade, and brought back samples from each world and/or future trading partner. The T-norm world got a detailed survey as my heroes recagnized it's future worth.

We even did some threat analysis of the Belgardian Sojurn and the Zho presence in the outrim.

By far the most valuable thing brought back was the "particulally repellant rodent scavengers" from the regressed colony...the ones with the anagathic qualities. They brought back through herculian efforts a large breeding group.

They interpreted the "value of goods brought back" to include the potentially vast profits from a new anagathic source and hired lawyers to support their views.

On the whole, it was a highly successful exploratory cruise and they were rewarded accordingly. They eventually got a 1/2 percent of the net profits from the anagathic source but only got a few reasonable checks before we, as a group broke up after we graduated.

 

[Whipsnade]

BGG,
Sorry, didn't see this post until just now!

On exploration and trade in the Third Imperium generally, yes, the IISS is responsible for identifying new markets and sharing them with Imperial business interests, as described herein Adventure 13, Signal GK, p. 4. (1985):

It says 'contacting new markets', not setting up trading relations with them. The US State Department has a trade office too. Foggy Bottom doesn't ink any specific deals between specific companies, exhibit specific goods, or arrange to move a single container of freight however. It puts potential buyers together with potential sellers in the hopes something will happen. The actual research into trade opportunities and development of the same is done by somebody else.

You'll also notice that the same quote describes the x-boats as a 'swift transfer of information'. We know that to be a lie, so what does say about the rest of the statement?

As I understand it (and have played it), when a merchant entity puts together an "exploration" mission, its purpose is to initiate trade with these different entities, and with this in mind, IMHO neither Leviathan nor Lorimar is well suited to the task.

I never said they were perfect. I did say they worked within the confines of the adventure for which they were created and that exploratory traders needn't 'make their nut' on every jump and every voyage. If you look over the SJGames thread in question, you'll see the suggestions I made to increase cargo space. Leviathan has too many back-up systems and too many small craft IMHO. Leviathan, like its early CT sibling Kinunir, is an oddity in that many of the rules have bypassed it.

When my merchant captain wanted to open up trade with our referee’s homebrewed Foreven sector...

A nice example. I'll call your attention to one word in the sentence I snipped; homebrewed. Your referee's homebrewed Foreven has no bearing on the OTU in general or A:4 in specific. I also find it odd that your new company had enough initial capital to:

- Purchase three ships outright.
- Crew said ships.
- Put a factor on retainer for a year.
- Tie up funds by purchasing likely cargos that were then stored for long periods.
- Keep a 1000 dTon jump3 ship grounded for a year until you could use it.

The last is my particular favorite. That ship could have been off making money somewhere, just as you demand Leviathan be able to do. Instead, you had it parked as a multi-MCr warehouse while you slowly filled its hold. I'd suggest that the trading model used in your GM's Foreven campaign is even less realistic than the one presented in A:4. BT may have their faults, but they didn't ground a 1000 dTon cargo hauler for use as a warehouse. You'll also notice they didn't waste a vessel that can earn its way by sending it trading off on an exploratory mission either. They kept those vessels at home to maintain their revenue stream.

Another question; how'd you select specific potential trade items before you knew what your customers may want? Or was your exploration just along the lines of "In goods trade well on Ag worlds so buy X dTons of In goods and find an Ag world"? The data BT wants returned from the Leviathan mission in A:4 is far more detailed in that.

... the hold is filled with thirty-five tons of trade goods on the trip out, and a portion of the recompense for the crew is based on what the ship brings back.

No. I've explained this before. The crew, which is already earning double the normal salaries, may be rewarded by a cut of the cargo's value if the mission is a success. Re-reading those mission objectives again: The objective is to discover new trading possibilities, and bring back samples (emphasis mine) trade goods, reports, and survey data. There is nothing in the mission objectives about earning a profit in the trade of speculative goods. BT wants the data and it doesn't want a crew distracted from gathering that data by trying to fill their hold for the ship's next stop.

So, there is nothing in the mission's objectives about making crew members rich, just as there is nothing in the objectives about bringing back anything more than possibilities, samples, reports, and data. You don't need a large hold for any of those things.

You may not see that as the primary incentive, but I do...

How you and I see it is of no matter. How A:4 sees it is all that counts. A:4 sees it in the way I've quoted and not the way you and I may wish it to be.

The analogy of R&D I think misses a couple of important points. How many privately owned and operated fusion plants are there in the world? How about privately operated superconducting supercolliders?

R&D can only mean 'Manhattan Project' and the like? R&D is a good many things. R&D is Neilsen ratings. R&D is that lady handing out cheese samples at the supermarket. R&D is a phone survey of hiring managers. R&D is counting want ads in a selection of newspapers. R&D is brand recognition. R&D is wine tasting tours. R&D is guerilla marketing. R&D is many, many, many more things than capital intensive, bleeding edge, scientific research.

As I understand it trading companies have historically followed close on the heels of explorers, but rarely are true explorers in their own rights.

That contradicts your own previous example of Captain Gray and Columbia then. I said he sailed to a previously known (not perfectly known, but previously known) region to tap a previously known market. You said he was an explorer who used trade to fund his voyage. Which is it?

In any case, the point of this exercise is to discuss unprofitable merchant ship designs...

This discussion began with your complaints about the unsuitability of Leviathan as a pure merchant vessel. When it was explained tthat Leviathan is an exploratory trader, what the nature of exploratory trade is, and that the vessel works well enough at that job within the specific adventure it was designed for, your comments morphed into complaints about how Leviathan is unsuited for other purposes.

Remember, A:4 doesn't even 'work' with the later versions of the Spinward Marches and Leviathan was specifically designed to work within A:4. Is the ship a perfect exploratory trader? No, no ship is because each area to be 'economically explored' is different. Is Leviathan a servicable one for the specific adventure it was designed for? Yes.

I will say that I think there are better ways, and better ships, for getting the job done.

I said that too, even presenting Scotian Huntress in 'Night of Conquest' as an example. For the specific job in the specific adventure with the specific goals explicitly mentioned, Leviathan works. The fact that you can't use it for other things in other settings doesn't change that.

I'll be moving on too. I was taught three times was a limit in training. If you can't get your point across in three attempts, it's time for someone else to try because you're not connecting and won't be able to connect.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
It says 'contacting new markets', not setting up trading relations with them.

If I understand you correctly, you’ve been arguing that BT’s goal in dispatching the Leviathan is to 'explore' Egryn subsector and 'discover new trading possibilities' – here it says explicitly that this is a job for the Scouts, particularly when taken in context with the rest of the sentence describing the relationship between the IISS and Imperial business interests. Also note the specific use of the word markets, not sophonts or cultures.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
You'll also notice that the same quote describes the x-boats as a 'swift transfer of information'. We know that to be a lie, so what does say about the rest of the statement?

Interesting. We’ll come back to this a bit further along.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
I also find it odd that your new company had enough initial capital to:

- Purchase three ships outright.
- Crew said ships.
- Put a factor on retainer for a year.
- Tie up funds by purchasing likely cargos that were then stored for long periods.
- Keep a 1000 dTon jump3 ship grounded for a year until you could use it.

How is any of this odd?

Yes, we had sufficient capital to undertake the purchase outright of a used freighter and provide the factor with funds to make speculative cargo purchases – we took our private trading company public to raise additional funds (see the JTAS article on high finance for details on how this was done). We already paid off the A2 and the S was bought from surplus a couple of game-years before we prepared our trading mission. Yes, the berthed ship was our warehouse – a year’s berthing fees was a bit pricier than a local warehouse, but it also meant that we had the ship in a relatively safe environment with its own security already provided (i.e., the starport). Yes, the factor was paid a salary, and received a commission on our return.

Believe it or not, there are Traveller gamers who do something other than jump around star systems scrambling for odd jobs of questionable legality. "Merchant Prince" was more than the title of a supplement to us in that game – it was what our characters aspired to become.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
The last is my particular favorite. That ship could have been off making money somewhere, just as you demand Leviathan be able to do..

We were still playing the game of Traveller, Bill, which means that we were focused on what our characters were doing while the rest of the preparation went on for the most part in the background, with the odd crisis for us to resolve.

What I "demand" of merchant cruisers is that they be suitable to actually establishing trade with new markets. Well-armed? Yes. Good jump capability? Absolutely. System redundancy? Perhaps. Minimal cargo space? Not on your life.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Another question; how'd you select specific potential trade items before you knew what your customers may want? Or was your exploration just along the lines of "In goods trade well on Ag worlds so buy X dTons of In goods and find an Ag world"? The data BT wants returned from the Leviathan mission in A:4 is far more detailed in that.

Let me first ask a question: do you think the 'beads and trinkets' in the hold of Leviathan are actuall beads and trinkets?

We stocked up on trade goods like tools, blades, and so forth, items that could be purchased in large quantities at low prices on an industrial world. We also collected other goods as we spent the year preparing for the trip.

And as far as the data that BT wants in Adventure 4, well, I’ll touch on that a bit further on.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
The crew, which is already earning double the normal salaries, may be rewarded by a cut of the cargo's value if the mission is a success. Re-reading those mission objectives again: The objective is to discover new trading possibilities, and bring back samples (emphasis mine) trade goods, reports, and survey data. There is nothing in the mission objectives about earning a profit in the trade of speculative goods. BT wants the data and it doesn't want a crew distracted from gathering that data by trying to fill their hold for the ship's next stop.

Then why offer the crew a percentage at all? If the mission is primarily about collecting 'samples' and survey data, what 'reward' can the crew reasonably expect? "Congratulations! Your share of the profits is sixteen credits! Invest it wisely." Bah.

Have you ever worked on commission, or supplemented your salary with commissions?

Implicit, at least to me, in discovering new trading possibilities is actual trade. That requires goods to offer, and an expectation of a return on the investment. Toward that end, Leviathan is poorly designed as presented in the original adventure.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
How you and I see it is of no matter. How A:4 sees it is all that counts. A:4 sees it in the way I've quoted and not the way you and I may wish it to be.

And yet in this same post you refer to the "swift transfer of information" by the x-boat system as "a lie" – I find your selective acceptance of canon fascinating.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
R&D can only mean 'Manhattan Project' and the like? R&D is a good many things. R&D is Neilsen ratings. R&D is that lady handing out cheese samples at the supermarket. R&D is a phone survey of hiring managers. R&D is counting want ads in a selection of newspapers. R&D is brand recognition. R&D is wine tasting tours. R&D is guerilla marketing. R&D is many, many, many more things than capital intensive, bleeding edge, scientific research.

A 1.2 BCr starship sent into a vaguely-known subsector is a bit more of a resource commitment than the lady offering cheese-spread-and-crackers at the market, wouldn’t you say? It’s a big risk for a company to take for uncertain returns, like expending the money to undertake something as dramatic (and potentially profitable) as developing the first commercially viable fusion reactor. Businesses, IMHX, tend to be inherently conservative, which is one of the main reasons that exploration is rarely something with which they are willing to take the lead.

If I understand your argument, you’re suggesting that Leviathan is first and foremost an exploration vessel, and the information gained is of more value to the company than any trading it may do. If this is an accurate assessment, where are the contact specialists? Leviathan carries a crew of fifty-six plus four physical and natural scientists – where is the linguist? The sophontologist? How exactly is the crew expected to gather this oh-so-valuable survey data? Is it assumed that everyone in the Outrim Void speaks Galanglic? If so, why? If not, why isn’t this exploration mission equipped to handle this circumstance?

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As I understand it trading companies have historically followed close on the heels of explorers, but rarely are true explorers in their own rights.

That contradicts your own previous example of Captain Gray and Columbia then. I said he sailed to a previously known (not perfectly known, but previously known) region to tap a previously known market. You said he was an explorer who used trade to fund his voyage. Which is it?</font>[/QUOTE]When I made reference to Kendrick and Gray as explorers, it was intended to be taken in the context of opening new markets, a thought that I expanded on in later posts – I assumed, incorrectly, that you would understand the that. Neither of the Americans was expected to perform the same function as George Vancouver, or the various Spanish exploration missions – they were there to establish trade contact.

BTW, I’m drawing from my recollection of a book called Hail, Columbia on Gray and Kendrick that I picked up in Portland some years ago – unfortunately all my PNW history books are packed away, so I can’t quote you the relevant bits directly at the moment, but I’ll be happy to PM them to you when I dig it out again if you like.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
This discussion began with your complaints about the unsuitability of Leviathan as a pure merchant vessel. When it was explained tthat Leviathan is an exploratory trader, what the nature of exploratory trade is, and that the vessel works well enough at that job within the specific adventure it was designed for, your comments morphed into complaints about how Leviathan is unsuited for other purposes.

Nowhere did I suggest that merchant cruisers need be pure merchant vessels – I said that I believe they should be better suited to trade than they are. I’ll thank you to not put words in my mouth.

As far as it working well enough as an explorer, well, that’s your opinion – a 1.2 BCr privately owned and operated exploration vessel is an extravagance in mine.

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
If you can't get your point across in three attempts, it's time for someone else to try because you're not connecting and won't be able to connect.

You’ve made you point adequately – I’m just not buying what your selling.

The last word is yours to take.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
And yet in this same post you refer to the "swift transfer of information" by the x-boat system as "a lie" – I find your selective acceptance of canon fascinating.

BGG,

Just as I find your deliberate obtuseness fascinating.

Why do I call the CT notion of the x-boats a system for the "the swift transfer of information" a lie? It isn't out of selective acceptence. It's a lie because further canonical materials in MT and TNE explicitly tell me it is a lie. The judgement wasn't mine to make.

A 1.2 BCr starship sent into a vaguely-known subsector is a bit more of a resource commitment than the lady offering cheese-spread-and-crackers at the market, wouldn’t you say?

I don't know. You used a vessel of similar size and thus similar cost as a warehouse so you tell me.

You’ve made you point adequately – I’m just not buying what your selling.

It isn't that you're not buying. It's more that you're not listening or, more accurately, I can't explain it in a fashion that makes you want to listen. You percieve A:4 in a certain fashion and have conflated your perception of that published adventure with the 'nuts & bolts' from your own merchant trading campaign in Foreven.

Taken only by itself and as Traveller stood in 1980, A:4 and Leviathan work.

You're 'complaining' that Leviathan isn't an apple and I'm 'explaining' that Leviathan is an orange instead. Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe, poe-tay-toe, poe-tah-toe. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[daryen]

Sorry for jumping in late, but I just can't let this slide.

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
One way to solve the "Far Trader" issue is to charge per parsec of transport rather than per jump.

Fie on per-parsec cargo costs! Fie, I say!



This is one of the things I like with respect to T20 priority cargos - it works alongside the inviolable concept of charging per jump rather than per parsec for standard cargos that is acid-etched in canon. </font>[/QUOTE]Anyone who accepts the base idea of charging per jump rather than per parsec forfeits the right to demand that any economics in the game be "realistic".

Per jump pricing was a game mechanic used to be as simple as possible and to force PCs into speculative trade. The idea that such a system could "really" work is patently absurd. It is unsustainable and is as unrealistic as jump drives and reactionless thrusters.

I am not saying you shouldn't use it. (I will cheerfully use it in some of my games when appropriate.) I am saying that by using it you forfeit the right to ask for "realism".

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by daryen:
Anyone who accepts the base idea of charging per jump rather than per parsec forfeits the right to demand that any economics in the game be "realistic".

Suspension of disbelief and 'realism' aren't necessarily the same thing, daryen.

 

[TheEngineer]

One major attribute of economics is, that it is rarely realistic

 

[aramis]

I can only think of one type of modern merchant vessel which routinely uses barracks accommodations... The Factory Vessels in the southcentral Alaskan fishing industry. Mind you, ship's company are in staterooms, small, but either single or double occupancy. The factory crew, however, are in bunkrooms on many (most that I've heard of.) Never been on them myself, but many friends do.

The FV's collect fish from fishing vessels out in the open ocean, and clean and pack it underway back to port. Nasty, smelly, slimy work...

The one tramp I've been aboard was small rooms; crew in singles, and the two passengers doubled up.... So I had a room mate.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
On exploration and trade in the Third Imperium generally, yes, the IISS is responsible for identifying new markets and sharing them with Imperial business interests, as described herein Adventure 13, Signal GK, p. 4. (1985):

The Scout Service encourages trade by publishing accurate planetary and interstellar charts, contacting new markets beyond the borders, and administering the express boat service for swift transfer of information.

(Quoted from a summary of the Imperium by thrash; emphasis added by poster.)

I can't find this quote in Adventure 13 on page 4.

Is it elsewhere in the adventure, or in a different adventure?

 

[mike wightman]

IMHO the speculative trade system is all that is needed to explain the price fixing that occurs within the OTU.

The megacorporations buy and sell their commodities on a much bigger scale, which can finace their ships, pay dividends, allow for an R&D budget etc.

They then rent left over space in their transports for 1000Cr per ton.

Free traders have to match this price.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
Anyone who accepts the base idea of charging per jump rather than per parsec forfeits the right to demand that any economics in the game be "realistic".

Suspension of disbelief and 'realism' aren't necessarily the same thing, daryen. </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, but if you are going to accept that the entire economic model of CT somehow magically works, how can you have a problem with a mini-megacorp spending money on pure market research? You just swallowed the fish whole; why are you arguing over whether one of the scales was "gray" or "silvery"?

In other words, you have already effectively said that you accept the per-jump model because that's the way it is. Why can't you accept accept the idea of corporate sponsored exploration because that's the way it is, too.

You are being incredibly inconsistent.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
If I understand you correctly, you’ve been arguing that BT’s goal in dispatching the Leviathan is to 'explore' Egyrn subsector and 'discover new trading possibilities' – here it says explicitly that this is a job for the Scouts, particularly when taken in context with the rest of the sentence describing the relationship between the IISS and Imperial business interests.

Leaving aside the question of whether or not that really is what the Scouts are supposed to do, Leviathan expressly states that the Scouts haven't been doing it in the actual case:

"Except for the extreme coreward end, Egyrn subsector is largely unknown to the public - most Navy and Scout data on this area is classified." [L:11]

It also states (as Bill has already quoted for you) that the objective of the voyage is to discover new trading possibilities and to bring back sample trade goods (emphasis mine). I can't spot any ambiguity that would leave any doubt about the exploratory nature of the trip.

What I "demand" of merchant cruisers is that they be suitable to actually establishing trade with new markets. Well-armed? Yes. Good jump capability? Absolutely. System redundancy? Perhaps. Minimal cargo space? Not on your life.

So you don't think that showing up with a sample case of goods and taking orders for delivery of large numbers of those goods at a later date is a viable business strategy? You're expecting the Leviathan to be a truck when it's actually a sample case.

Please note that I'm not saying that you can't make a living with a truck. I'm saying that you don't necessarily need one. Sometimes a suitcase is enough.

Then why offer the crew a percentage at all? If the mission is primarily about collecting 'samples' and survey data, what 'reward' can the crew reasonably expect? "Congratulations! Your share of the profits is sixteen credits! Invest it wisely." Bah.

Contrariwise, what sort of trading company assigns 54.5% of the value of the cargo a ship brings home to the crew? Not 54.5% of the profit, mind you, but 54.5% of the gross value. Could it possibly be that the writers didn't go over every word they wrote with a fine tooth comb looking for ambiguities and making trebly sure that they expressed exactly what they meant and that everything they meant was completely, 100% self-consistent?

As a referee, I'd simply say that the crew would share in any profit made on the voyage, said profit to include a small royalty on all future trade with any markets that they opened. Not 54.5%, of course, but 54 1/2 shares of a couple of percent.

Implicit, at least to me, in discovering new trading possibilities is actual trade.

And the Leviathan has room for some cargo. Incidentally, if you have the goods of an entire world to chose from and no rivals to underbid you, you should be able to scrape together a cargo of merely 70 dT that will earn you a big enough fortune to pay for a six month voyage with a 1.2 BCr ship. Of course, you'd be regretting the fact that you could've made two fortunes if you had had 140 T of cargo space.

(BTW. The available cargo space is somewhat higher than you think. There's almost a hundred T of space available in the four small crafts).

And yet in this same post you refer to the "swift transfer of information" by the x-boat system as "a lie" – I find your selective acceptance of canon ascinating.

What's so odd about that? I do it myself all the time. To me the key is the phrase: "It also has to make sense". If canon makes sense and doesn't contradict itself, I generally accept it (there are the rare situations when an alternative is vastly better than the current canon, but it would have to be much better, not just a little better). If canon doesn't make sense, or contradicts itself, I advocate changing it to make sense. I only reject for cause. In the present case, I'd cheerfully accept a redesign of the Leviathan to get rid of the superfluous back-up jump drive, but I don't think the low cargo space in itself is cause to change anything. It makes perfect sense as long as the rest of ther ship is reasonable for the purpose of exploration.

Selective acceptance is not the same thing as arbitrary selection.

A 1.2 BCr starship sent into a vaguely-known subsector is a bit more of a resource commitment than the lady offering cheese-spread-and-crackers at the market, wouldn’t you say? It’s a big risk for a company to take for uncertain returns,

And what sort of risk do you think the first European traders who ventured around Cape Hope took?

The potential profit from opening an entire world to trade is staggering.

If I understand your argument, you’re suggesting that Leviathan is first and foremost an exploration vessel, and the information gained is of more value to the company than any trading it may do. If this is an accurate assessment, where are the contact specialists? Leviathan carries a crew of fifty-six plus four physical and natural scientists – where is the linguist? The sophontologist? How exactly is the crew expected to gather this oh-so-valuable survey data?

A very good point. There should be contact specialists. If I was playing the captain, I would ask that one myself. The meta-answer is, of course, that the authors forgot about them. If you want an in-game handwave, I'd be forced to say that the Purser has to fill those shoes. (I'll be the first to admit that it is not a good handwave; if I was running the adventure, I'd simply introduce some contact specialists).

Is it assumed that everyone in the Outrim Void speaks Galanglic? If so, why? If not, why isn’t this exploration mission equipped to handle this circumstance?

Again, there's a meta-game answer, namely that Leviathan was written before anyone thought about diversity of languages. Back then everybody apparently spoke Common. In-game, drawing on all the subsequent information that has been published, almost everyone in the region would speak something derived from the language of the Sindalian Empire. (Personally, I'd still want a linguist along, since the SE fell 2500 years ago, but... )


Hans

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by daryen:
You are being incredibly inconsistent.

Let me repeat the last bit from my initial post:

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
Nonetheless, it's my one sticking point in the TU - strangely enough, I can accept many of the oddities that hang up other Traveller gamers, but merchant ships that are unlikely to turn a profit set my eyes to rolling faster than you can say, "feudal technocracy."

(Italics added for emphasis.)

Do I think that business interests in the Imperium sponsor trade exploration? Sure - like you said, it's in the canon. Do I think that the published examples of merchant cruisers are good designs for this purpose? No, I don't. That was the point in my initial post, and it remains my point now.