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Merchant Drop Tanks

Originally posted by robject:
Right, the key issue seemed to have been whether or not the jump capacitors can hold their charge long enough to allow fuel transfer.

Apparently the "capacitors" aren't really capacitors, either, since you can't just keep them charged up indefinitely -- it's a one-shot deal.
I always side stepped the issue of capacitors as part of the jump process figuring the fuel was turned into energy that was channeled into jump space thus opening up hyperspace allowing the ship to enter. All through the magic of the jump drive. This way the energy contained in the fuel was never fed into anything in the real universe (thus not serving as a weapon); avoiding some problems regarding heat transfer that might melt the ship as the energy is not realy generated here; explaining the link between powerplant and jump number (bigger plants to feed more fuel at a higher rate to open the higher dimensional jump path).

All non-canon to be sure; but just some ideas to explain things in play and minimize unintended consequences.
 
Originally posted by robject:
Exactly the problem. What does the Annic Nova use for fuel anyway? Someone suggested a TL25 portal to a gas giant-sized pocket universe...
It doesn't need to use fuel.

There was an obvious paradigm shift in the way the jump drive works between the early version of the rules and High Guard requiring the marrying of the jump drive with the power plant - which along with the HG2 black globe rules suggest that the jump drive now uses the fuel for something other than energy generation.

The original Annic Nova article suggested that the ships be a lot more common within the setting, suggesting several circumstances where AN class ships could be encountered.

But with the revision and the change the Annic Nova had to go, or be some riduculously high TL artifact (pocket universe fuel store
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))

I stick with the original version of the jump drive, and the Annic Nova solar powered version provides a bit of diversity.
An MTU where Aslan ships use fission reactor powered jump drives to slowly cross the great rifts, that sort of thing ;)
 
I would say that the Powerplant, or some other source, charges up the capacitors, based on other implications and evidence, which then uses an energy discharge to start a very fast and very seriously fuel consuming process that actually opens the portal between Jump Space and real space. The tanks are jetisoned as the ship enters the portal probably hitting the event horizon of the portal, and getting instantly destroyed. (Since they are jetisoned using explosives to throw them clear, everything is definitely happening in a hurry.)

That also follows the definition that they are disposable. Also this wouldn't limit the tech level of the ship to TL14 or 15, but a time frame when the option was discovered. After all a lightbulb is a simple principal, but until Edison actually figured it out, nobody had one.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Using the Traveller rules to put drop tanks on jump ships makes excellent economic sense.
With all due respect, I must question this rather blunt assertion.

:D

It was tossed out there several pages ago, and then the discussion rapidly shifted to focus on the technological requirements and practical engineering concerns.

But I think the original context of this thread has been lost: do drop tanks make economic sense from a mercantile perspective?

Given that L-Hyd tanks cost Cr1000 per dton (plus base cost of Cr10000), and cargo ships at Cr1000 per dton, the revenue from the cargo tonnage freed up within the hold is completely offset by the cost of constructing the drop tanks themselves. Given that the tanks must be replaced (rather than merely recovered, as per the rules) once dropped as part of a long-range Jump, there is no obvious advantage of them to a merchantman.

Unless perhaps, of course, you ship cargo at "per parsec" rates...

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If you add in the additional chance for a misjump from later versions of the rules they make little to no sense for standard merchantmen. Specialized couriers? Yes. Military vessels? Yes. General Merchants? No. The expense quickly adds up and you are better off buying a bigger ship in the first place. Even with per parsec pricing.
 
Originally posted by boomslang:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Using the Traveller rules to put drop tanks on jump ships makes excellent economic sense.
With all due respect, I must question this rather blunt assertion.

:D
</font>[/QUOTE]It's in response to Scott's first post about making the tanks reusable - if they are reusable then they do make excellent economic sense ;)

Given that L-Hyd tanks cost Cr1000 per dton (plus base cost of Cr10000), and cargo ships at Cr1000 per dton, the revenue from the cargo tonnage freed up within the hold is completely offset by the cost of constructing the drop tanks themselves. Given that the tanks must be replaced (rather than merely recovered, as per the rules) once dropped as part of a long-range Jump, there is no obvious advantage of them to a merchantman.

Unless perhaps, of course, you ship cargo at "per parsec" rates...

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Instead of freight carry passengers or speculative goods ;)

The extra passengers would easily pay for the drop tanks and give a tidy profit; the extra range your drop tanks can give you can open up more markets for your speculative goods, and hence raise your chances of making money on your trade goods.

Or you can make the tanks reusable as Scott suggests.

Is there no canon reference to drop tanks being picked up to be reused?
 
Originally posted by boomslang:
But I think the original context of this thread has been lost: do drop tanks make economic sense from a mercantile perspective?

Given that L-Hyd tanks cost Cr1000 per dton (plus base cost of Cr10000), and cargo ships at Cr1000 per dton, the revenue from the cargo tonnage freed up within the hold is completely offset by the cost of constructing the drop tanks themselves.
Well, if you use T20 priority or hazardous freight rates, then the cost-benefit ratio improves somewhat - if you're carrying valuable speculative cargo, then the profits can make the cost worthwhile.

I think the more important limitation is that you must operate between ports where you can have the tanks replaced after using them, or operate at lower jump numbers until a suitable facility can be reached. I think this would tend to restrict the usage of drop tanks on merchants to established lines.
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Is there no canon reference to drop tanks being picked up to be reused?
None at all. But fans have house ruled it in for as long as can be remembered.
 
Originally posted by robject:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:

Is there no canon reference to drop tanks being picked up to be reused?
None at all.</font>[/QUOTE]Indeed. All the way back in CT LBB5 2e, it plainly states that they must be replaced each time they're used; this is in the specific context of their suitability for merchant use...

House rules are groovy, but original canon implies ya gotta smash 'em when ya drop 'em... 100 diameters and all that...

So in canon, not economically feasible; under house rules allowing recovery & reuse, might make economic sense.

As a side note, subsidized merchantmen built with wholly-inadequate internal j-fuel would be highly resistant to skipping and hijacking, as a practical matter. Make sure to mention this when applying for financing & insurance... ;)
 
If drop tanks are reusable, who are they reusable by? Doesn't someone have to pick them up after the departing ship? Maybe good for big corps but the system littering fee for your poor adventure merchant has got to be pretty bad. ;)
 
Originally posted by boomslang:
Indeed. All the way back in CT LBB5 2e, it plainly states that they must be replaced each time they're used; this is in the specific context of their suitability for merchant use...
Agreed, in fact the original JTAS TAS article specifically mentions that the tanks are destroyed.

House rules are groovy, but original canon implies ya gotta smash 'em when ya drop 'em... 100 diameters and all that...
Original canon has a tendency to be overwritten though ;)

So in canon, not economically feasible; under house rules allowing recovery & reuse, might make economic sense.
As I said earlier, if you use the extra space for passengers or for carrying speculative cargo then you can make them pay for themselves and generate a profit under LBB2 trade rules.

As a side note, subsidized merchantmen built with wholly-inadequate internal j-fuel would be highly resistant to skipping and hijacking, as a practical matter. Make sure to mention this when applying for financing & insurance... ;)
Yep, they would be reliant on the worlds within their subsidy route to provide the drop tanks.
 
Originally posted by Ptah:
If drop tanks are reusable, who are they reusable by? Doesn't someone have to pick them up after the departing ship? Maybe good for big corps but the system littering fee for your poor adventure merchant has got to be pretty bad. ;)
You could have cutters picking up the drop tanks to have them refilled and then rented to the next merchantman...

could be quite a money spinner ;)
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
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You could have cutters picking up the drop tanks to have them refilled and then rented to the next merchantman...

could be quite a money spinner ;)
Now that's a cool idea :cool: - particularly good for opening up isolated worlds (J3 or J4)in a rift sector to independents when the big boys don't want the market!
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
You could have cutters picking up the drop tanks to have them refilled and then rented to the next merchantman...
If you were really all Right Stuffy (and take a hint from your above notion of crewing recoverable L-Hyd tanks), you could just retrofit a 95-dton shuttle with 70-odd dtons of internal tankage and reverse drop tank fittings on the outside so it (or two or three of 'em) could externally mount to the merchantman (en route to, or simply at, Jump point), and then just fly itself back to the starport to top up its own tanks once it sends another starship on its way.

This could even be a lucrative subcontracted service provided by worlds trying to stimulate trade... or entrepreneurs... or whomever...

Also, you could set up a Calibration Point in deep space and really move some payload tonnage back and forth across a void...
 
Thought that I'd point out the first post assumed that you would have tugs shuttling the drop tanks to and from a local "very high port" with regular "tanker" runs fed from a local GG or ice planet.

This type of merchant design would only be feasible between two very well established (and infrastructure heavy) systems, although a "wildcat" operation of this type could be set up fairly easily for military use, I'd suspect that any system where "small scale" operations of this type were feasible they would get squeezed out by the "big boys" fairly rapidly, either with predatory trade practices or outright nastiness...

...of course that's an adventure hook right there ;)

Scott Martin
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by boomslang:
Indeed. All the way back in CT LBB5 2e, it plainly states that they must be replaced each time they're used; this is in the specific context of their suitability for merchant use...
Agreed, in fact the original JTAS TAS article specifically mentions that the tanks are destroyed.

House rules are groovy, but original canon implies ya gotta smash 'em when ya drop 'em... 100 diameters and all that...
Original canon has a tendency to be overwritten though ;)
</font>[/QUOTE]In this case though I have yet to see anything official that says something other than disposable.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So in canon, not economically feasible; under house rules allowing recovery & reuse, might make economic sense.
As I said earlier, if you use the extra space for passengers or for carrying speculative cargo then you can make them pay for themselves and generate a profit under LBB2 trade rules.</font>[/QUOTE]Only if you restrict your ship to worlds where drop tanks are manufactured. Then yes it could be done, but that is severely restricting the ship for little profit margin. Instead of the drop tanks, just build a bigger ship.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As a side note, subsidized merchantmen built with wholly-inadequate internal j-fuel would be highly resistant to skipping and hijacking, as a practical matter. Make sure to mention this when applying for financing & insurance... ;)
Yep, they would be reliant on the worlds within their subsidy route to provide the drop tanks. </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]But in later versions of the rules they are also likely to misjump when using the tanks. So it is a definite trade off. And that restriction is only if they actually drop the tanks.
 
Ok, I was doing some figuring to work out the economics of using tankers to fuel long range starships.

Here's my assumptions:

100KTon freighter, J4, TL 15

I designed ships using FF&S1, and using TNE universe (this has a dramatic affect as we'll see). This is the only ruleset that I have handy to work with.

We're assuming that the drop tanks can be ships themselves. i.e. a Drop Tank with a MDrive and crew.

You can call them tankers if you like. You can call them "fuel shuttles" that move the tanks from A to B, but, when combined, operate pretty much like a ship. So for all intents and purposes, I think, there's no reason a Drop Tank can't be an actual ship.

I used good 'ol Sol as the star system of choice for my model.

Basically, using FF&S and TNE rules, a 100Kton ship needs 25000 Dtons of Jump Fuel for a J4 drive.

So, I then decided on a tanker designed to carry a net 5000 Dtons of fuel (after burning maneuvering fuel -- the tanker is an 8000 Dton ship, FYI), so the 100Kton ship would require 5 such tankers to make the jump.

I also allocated enough fuel for "1 jump" (in this case, 1/4, 6250 Dtons) to the Freighter as a buffer for Jump fuel, assuming that 100% of the fuel can't come from the tankers.

I also gave 30G hour of fuel for the Freighter, as this seems to be a Best Practice for civilian ships (using the few in the TNE book as an example). In truth, the ship really doesn't need anywhere that much for normal operations.

Finally, since we're working Sol, I assumed that the tankers would be skimming a gas giant (Jupiter) while the freight would be delivering to Earth.

I calculated the cost of the ship, and threw in the monthly expenses including salaries and maintenance. I also charge 1/240 of the cash price as ship payments. For salaries I used a flat 1000Cr per crewmember since the rules base them on expertise and officers and what not. I think I'm overpaying at that rate, but it's a reasonable guesstimate.

I took this monthly cost and divided it by the cargo volume of the freighter to get a gross expense for each cargo Dton to break even.

Since I have the tankers gassing up at Jupiter, it turns out that it takes quite a bit of time to make the trip when you're limited by G-Turn burns for fuel. A tanker fleet can make the rountrip from Jupiter to Earth in roughly 4 weeks. So in order to maintain a 2 week turn around on a simple J4 route for the freighter, I need 2 tanker fleets per system of 5 ships each. So, 10 tankers per system, 20 tankers total.

In the end, on the freighter I had a bit over 56000 Dtons free for cargo. M-Drive fuel was the top consumer of space at ~26,800 Dtons for 30 G-Turns. Next was the J Drive itself at 5000 Dtons.

So, what do we end up with? Does the math work out? Does maintaining that large tanker fleet pay off?

It does, and it pays off well.

Using the above scenario, it works out to an overall expense of 386Cr/ton. If we boost the JDrive fuel, and dump the tankers, it works to 411Cr/ton. A 6% savings. Nothing to sneeze at.

But wait, that 6% is misleading. Why? Because when we have our own tanker fleet to fuel the ship, we don't have to pay for fuel! At 100Cr/ton for unrefined fuel, the expense shoots up to 689Cr/ton! A 78% increase over operating your own fleet!

But wait, that 386Cr/ton is for operating your own fleet of drop tank tankers. If you were to operate your own fleet of fuel ships to simply fuel the ships internal J4 jump fuel tank, the price goes up to 581Cr/ton. About 16% cheaper than fueling from the starport with unrefined fuel.

If drop tanks are not "allowed", then with only a 16% savings, you would probably see fuel fleets for only the largest carriers that would have capital to build the tanker fleeets in the first place.

But if drop tanks ARE allowed for the large ships, then the large ships would almost always have tanker support. They'd also run over well controlled space lanes, and would probably not even have the 30G hrs of maneuver fuel. There would probably be 3rd party tanker fleet operators (like the companies who operate the fuel trucks at airports).

Mind, this assumes that they can fill the cargo ship. At stock 1000Cr/ton for generic Freight, all of these scenarios are viable and profitable. Even at under 50% capacity, this is a profitable enterprise.

Now, you thruster plate folks have a completely different set of math involved, since the you lose all of that reaction mass and gain cargo, and also your insystem travel times are much better, again since you have no reaction mass. It's ~140G hours one way from Earth to Jupiter, but that's at 1G. You can speed that up with higher G drives at minimal fuel cost. At 4G it takes 1/2 as long, so with 4G drives you need 1/2 the tanker fleet. And your tankers don't have to be as big either (my tankers consume over 1400Dtons of fuel just to make the round trip to the gas giant).

With reaction mass, hours are hours, no matter how fast your drive can spit them out, so it makes no sense to have more than a 1G drive, it's cold most of the trip anyway.

Anyway, it was a pretty enlightening excercise. I must say that running a fleet of 20 ships to support a larger ship coming out cheaper than the single ship itself was quite interesting.

Feel free to break out your kibitzing hats.
 
OK Here is another situation for Drop Tanks. A Ship under 100 tons can't have a jump drive. Yet a Heavy Fighter or a Cutter can be equipped with Drop Tanks. Taking the tonnage over 100. Can it then jump? Can it drop the tanks and jump? If it has sufficient internal fuel tankage, can it then jump again without the tanks?
 
Hey whartung

You missed crew salaries and maintenance costs as operational expenses...

You can take a huge chunk out of these by having detachable drives for the fuel tanks, and just buy more tanks.

A set of fuel skimmers fills the tanks, a set of "tugs" pushes the (full) tanks towards a collection point, and a second set of tugs stops the tanks at the far end and positions them for use. This allows you to have one set of drives (the expensive part) per (N, where N is probably a large number) fuel tanks.

Once you set up the "pipeline" you only need a single "booster" at the gas giant end (making lots of small daily boosts) and tugs equal to the max number of tankers you need for your ship at the other end (or even better, a single "collector" tug to get the (unpowered) empties once your transport has jumped) and one or more fuel skimmers.

This *massively* decreases the costs of your operation, since the major cost factor is not the hulls / tanks, but the drives to push them around. If you're "coasting" them anyway, why include drives?

IMTU the "bulk hauler" jumpships have under 10 G-turns of fuel (for a 0.1G drive when unloaded, crawling down to millimeters per second squared when loaded) and carry all of their remaining fuel in drop tanks (some of which do not get detached on jump) They never approach a gravity well, and operate on a strictly regulated schedule to ensure that they are not a "hazard to navigation" at their jump emergence points, since they *can't* get out of the way of other traffic.

Scott Martin
 
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