PathfinderAP
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But as a buyer I would like to see just that, best vesion of my favorite ship to boot, (best thing in TNE)
That desgin is very clear, neat,
Mgt art
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But as a buyer I would like to see just that, best vesion of my favorite ship to boot, (best thing in TNE)
That desgin is very clear, neat,
I am not sure he has to explain (well, other than the fact he kicked this whole discussion off
).The trouble with debating art is that, by its nature, it's subjective. There are covers from other studios and publishers that I think are shockingly bad - but I hear other people rave about them. I really like the cover we did for Wraith Recon, though few others in Mongoose share my opinion (I have henceforth been banned from commissioning art, being relugated to simply vetoing the stuff _I_ don't like).
If someone has a fixed idea of what Traveller is in their heads, I am not sure them explaining it has any point.
Of course, by the same token, having them effectively complain that we have not tailored a book specifically for them is also pointless
PathfinderAP
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PathfinderAP
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You see, I actually think it is a bit busy
Its a technical image, informative and therefore useful,
its not meant to convey an atmosphere, but to illustrate,
So for doing its job its not really busy,
thats the difference between illustration and art
I prefer pictures that I can use. Especially portraits that I can show to my players and tell them that the NPC they just met looks like that. Landscapes (including interiors) that show "the lay of the land" are nice too, although often a map is better for that sort of thing. Mood pictures that show how the city square or harbor or village looks like (before the PCs get busy :devil are useful too. Action pictures are less useful, especially the sort that'd make my players go "You got to be kidding me!" or "But Aslans aren't uplifted lions!"
Hans
are useful too. Action pictures are less useful, especially the sort that'd make my players go "You got to be kidding me!" or "But Aslans aren't uplifted lions!"Hans
I actually like this. It's a bit closer to my view of the Darrians than the stuff from the '80s.
There is a picture in the Vargr and Vilani book of two Vargr arguing over a knife, and there have been articles on how some of the sub-cultures have a thing for knives and blades. So what's the problem? They look like they are fighting a duel, a very common thing for high Charisma Vargr, I would think. I see no problem with that cover.
PathfinderAP
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Supplement Four
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Yes, I agree. Some of the stuff is dry.
I'd like to see some interesting new ship designs, and I'd like to see "good" updates of those vessels that have come to define Traveller.
And, I will agree that the Aslan and Vargr are difficult to make look "cool". To some, they're just "cat people" and "dog people" anyway.
I saw your pic of the Darrian chick sitting with her knee up. I'd agree with the above statement.
I think it's a cool pic. I think it fits the pic of the Ninja Vargr.
Again, it's not Traveller.
It's Flash Gordon, or D&D in space...not Traveller.
Not too everyone.
I have no problem using the rules for Traveller and all the other games. My problem is that you call it Traveller, no matter what, and you produce books like Mercenary for Traveller with obviously non-Traveller items in it.
You don't like that deckplan?!?
And...you LIKE the old school plain box style you're using in MGT right now?!?
All I can do is shake my head. I doubt many will agree (though, there are always a few) that Mongoose deckplans are presented better than that one in the link.
Ironically, MGT's version of deckplans is more like the plain boxes seen in CT than any other version of Traveller. But, that's one area where even me, the die-hard CT fan, will agree needs improvement.
The plan I showed in that link is top notch--the way most deck plans should aspire to look like.
It's D&D in space. It's not fantasy-esque.
Something akin to this is Traveller: http://terminaldays.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/fo3_dlc1_01.png?w=640&h=720
It's still cool. But, it looks realistic, too. It looks possible.
The Ninja Vargr looks too much like this: http://blog.pierrickauger.fr/__oneclick_uploads/2008/04/gnoll.jpg
The style Mongoose is taking Traveller is into more of a fantasy-esque Cyberpunk meets D&D. It's not Traveller.
That's a Vargr Mongoose is trying to portray, not a Gnoll in space.
Fair.
But, still, DGP stuff didn't have lavish, full color pics, either. There was a lot of B&W line work.
But, even that, was consistently "good" and gave Traveller that realistic and "cool" feel.
There was nothing at all "fantasy" about it.
I think I have to agree with S4 on this. It's not as much about the quality of the art (which is good) as about the verisimilitude. If I show my players a picture of the Ninja Vargr, will they take him serious or will they ask where the Halloween Party is being held? In other word, is it a Traveller-mood inducer or a Traveller-mood killer?
Hans
Hans
PathfinderAP
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You see that?, I certainly don't, why does it look D&D? because of the sword?
its a common weapon in Traveller, the armour?, again it seems more than fitting to Traveller, maybe its the location? but then any natural location can look like D&D, its not a "ninja vargr" just because its using a sword is it?,
yet there is nothing else "ninja" about that picture, I think you are being unfair, and grossly exaggerating, sure mongoose comes out with plenty of crap "art" but this is not it, as is not the "Darrian chick"
And this guy
http://terminaldays.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/fo3_dlc1_01.png?w=640&h=720
Are you saying you prefer that?,
(that looks like a knockoff character from "Metalgear Solid")
I think you are being unfair,
PathfinderAP
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To me, inducer, its made me consider using a race I never had in my games,
tell me what is it that is wrong with that picture?, is it the sword? (hence the "Ninja Vargr" again) explain the details of this not being Traveller,
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Supplement Four
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No. It's because of the lack of realism. Traveller always nods its head toward hard science and believable handwaving.
The pic of the Ninja Vargr is from another universe. He's more at home in Attack of the Clones, with its bug creatures and super hero Jedi rather than the more Traveller-like Aliens, with its hard core Colonial Marines that smack of realism.
I never said those two pics are crap. I think they're both quite good. I think they'd be awesome for a Star Wars game. They're just not Traveller.
I agree with Hans. They're a mood killer for the type of game Traveller is.
Absolutely, I would prefer that type of art over what we're getting.
Incidentally, Metalgear Solid is a stylized, fantasy-type universe, and that Ninja Vargr would fit in perfectly in a Metalgear rpg.
This is Traveller: http://everydayplaystation.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/killzone2picture.jpg
This is not Traveller: http://digitalart.org/images/artwork/0056500-56715/science-fiction/dragon-hunter.jpg
This is Traveller: http://www.darkfaery-subculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/suburbs_2100-1280x960.jpg
This is not Traveller: http://www.fanboy.com/archive-images/stephenyoull-02.jpg
This is Traveller: http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs23/f/2007/321/5/b/homeworld_2_hiigaran_Destroyer_by_JonasBR.jpg
This is not Traveller: http://www.artsnova.com/x/PleasureCruise.jpg
This is Traveller: http://www.geekologie.com/2009/10/01/laser-rifle.jpg
This is not Traveller: http://www.uncleodiescollectibles.com/img_lib/01 Replica Weapons 01 6-14-4.jpg
This is Traveller: http://media.moddb.com/legacy/images/features/30/308/gallery/t_1616.jpg
This is not Traveller: http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/telewatcher/2008/07/18/224477_7.jpg
Unbelievable thread this.
This is why CotI has become a laughing stock.
Swords FFS makes it D&D.
A 'chick' in armour makes it Flash Gordon.
And anything Mongoose does is no way ever going to be as good as anything any of the grogs here could do in their spare time, blah blah blah.
(& I cannot believe that deckplan was presented as an ideal- it is truly crap)
It seems that to be 'Traveller' (& lets not get into the ruleset vs OTU debate) you have to conform to the usual suspects' TravPolice personal & subjective idea of how it should be visually represented, no room for it become your own idea of what YTU will look like.
We all imagine this stuff differently and play it differently, let it go.
This is why CotI has become a laughing stock.
Swords FFS makes it D&D.
A 'chick' in armour makes it Flash Gordon.
And anything Mongoose does is no way ever going to be as good as anything any of the grogs here could do in their spare time, blah blah blah.
(& I cannot believe that deckplan was presented as an ideal- it is truly crap)
It seems that to be 'Traveller' (& lets not get into the ruleset vs OTU debate) you have to conform to the usual suspects' TravPolice personal & subjective idea of how it should be visually represented, no room for it become your own idea of what YTU will look like.
We all imagine this stuff differently and play it differently, let it go.
Supplement Four
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Matt said that some of the older, more realistic Traveller art was un-inspiring and boring.
I get that.
My point is that you don't have to edge towards fantasy to get exciting and inspiring.
Take this pic, for example. It's realistic, thought provoking, believeable, and very, very Traveller.
Traveller needs stuff like this.
I get that.
My point is that you don't have to edge towards fantasy to get exciting and inspiring.
Take this pic, for example. It's realistic, thought provoking, believeable, and very, very Traveller.
Traveller needs stuff like this.
No, pictures in a certain style (what I call the "spiky bits style" even if in some cases the spiky bits are only metaphorical) makes it Sword & Sorcery or Space Opera.
Not quite. Traveller has (or, if you like, used to have) a certain style, a certain level of verisimilitude that makes it different from Space Opera. To be Traveller to us grognards, it has to retain that style. I can quite see how someone who is bent on broadening the term to include anything from Science Fantasy to Space Opera would see nothing wrong with those pictures. But I don't see why that obliges me to change my mind about what Traveller means to me.
I imagine this stuff differently, sure enough. Now tell me why I'm not allowed to express my opinion?
Hans
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I am extremely glad that I do not share your restrictive, close-minded, blinkered, extremist, and unsolicited opinion of what Traveller is supposed to be.
Take this pic, for example. It's realistic, thought provoking, believeable, and very, very Traveller.
Traveller needs stuff like this.
...like it needs a hole in the head.
You must jest, surely? Given your insistence (quoted above) for "realistic, gritty" artwork, you point to (an admittedly good picture of) some over-armored rejects from Mad Max with skull heads and claim that is "thought-provoking, believeable, and very very Traveller"?
I feel we may be needing some tar and feathers for Supplement Four. :rofl: :rofl:
Supplement Four
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Absolutely. Take that pic and place it in the Mercenary book, representing a TL 7-9 world, balkanized, with mercs running around on it.
Very Traveller.
Well, lucky for you, you're getting your cyberpunk Darrians and Ninja Vargr Jedi wanna be's as art for your Traveller game.
Huh? Anti-gravity, artificial gravity, meson guns, ships the size of small moons (the Tigress), fusion guns, dog-aliens, cat-aliens, black globes, nuclear damper, starfish aliens (it's even an SF trope), the Ancients, world-cities, the scout ship as a miniature star destroyer... Do I need to go on?
Traveller IS space opera, not hard science fiction. And that's fine.
Traveller had it's roots in the space opera sf of the 50s and 60s. H. Beam Piper, and writers like him. People coming to Traveller now will have experienced SF in a different way, and will be wanting a different look, and feel.
Let's be honest. Most of the people buying Traveller today are not the same people who bought it 10, 20, 30 years ago. It's not marketed to them. It can't be, the market is too small. Traveller now is aimed at a different market, at people who grew up reading David Brin and playing video games.
It isn't the same Traveller we played back in the 70s and 80s. It can't be. Did Mongoose use the name as a marketing move? Sure, but not to sell it to the old-timers, but for name recognition. Traveller is identified with SF gaming like no other mark, save, perhaps, D20 Future or Star Wars.
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