MgT2 and T5 computers

[robject]

Oh no, I have to find an Apple-class Starport.

STARPORT GENERATION
2D Starport Class
2  P ("Apple")
3  A
4  A
5  B
6  C
7  C
8  D
9  E
10 E
11 X
12 X

 

[Condottiere]

Sirius (world)

Sirius/Dingir (Solomani Rim 1629)
Classic Era (1115)
A000769-E
See also UWP
System Details
Primary A1 V D
Planetoid Belts 1
Gas Giants 0

Sirius is a ring of many small worldlets (planetoids AKA an "asteroid belt"), not capable of retaining an atmosphere or water, and both non-agricultural and preindustrial in nature.

These worldlets warrant hazardous environment precautions.
Life in a vacuum requires great discipline. After all, it only takes one forgotten seal on a vacuum suit to spell death. Those who survive tend to be very methodically-minded and attentive to small detail.
The worldlets are, for the most part, unable to produce quality foodstuffs and must import them.
These worldlets are working towards being an industrial world but lack an adequate workforce to do so.
This a "high technology" world with technology achievements at, near, or over technology standards for Charted Space.
This world toils under the control of a military government with conditions reflecting that situation including curtailed civil rights and limited freedoms.
This is a "Puzzle" world designated as an Amber Zone. Caution is advised since the world has an environment, laws, customs, life forms, or other conditions that are not well understood and might be a danger to a visitor.
It is a member of the Third Imperium in the Dingir Subsector of Solomani Rim Sector in the Domain of Sol.

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Sirius_(world)

 

[kilemall]

Hmmmmm.
Of course this whole thing vexed me even in the early 80s.

I'm thinking universal computing maker for ship computers to personal comps.
Space Opera really had the workable system with the complexity scale, and the T4 CSC had that computer problem-solving vs. time chart as well.


I'm thinking the following variables-

• Complexity-Model Number
• Capacity=Complexity squared
• Reliability (4 grades, Consumer/Business/Avionic/Critical)
• Speed/time for solving X complexity, realtime solutions like autopiloting and gunnery solutions are .1s, analysis may take hours or weeks, and something like jump requires 10m
• Volume/weight, 2000kg per dton
• TL gives miniaturization/cost/power reduction

Each variable increases or lowers cost by a factor of 10. Base Cr10xC² per kg, Speed 1 is 100s per even complexity number. Base 10x Model# dton size.

So example for reliability, a TL6 Model/1 Consumer computer is Cr20000, each level up is Cr200000/MCr2/MCr20, no change to size for reliability

Usually somewhere along the line from TL6 to TL9, the typical starship Model/1 avionic level gets TL advantage sized down to 1 dton and gets specced to Speed 3, one advantage per TL. Cost remains the same unless it is the advantaged one- so a TL9 Model/1 Speed 2 avionic level could be dropped from MCr2 to Cr200000 instead.

Speed maximum is model number or model +1 per next TL. So Model/1 can get Speed 3 at TL9, Speed 4 at TL10 etc. Speed increments in .0001s, .001s, .01s, .1s, 1s, 10s, 100s, 1000s, 1h, 10h, 1D, 10D, 1 M, 10M, 1Y. Roll (3d6/10) x increment value for randomization of time cost.

EP=C²xSx.01. C is complexity S is speed. Speed baseline is 1m at Speed 1 at equal Complexity. I'm not happy with this formula, going to revisit. I'm making this up as of an hour ago.


Baseline system is TL9 Model/1 capable of Jump-1, I'm going with CT models to TL15/Model 9 starting at TL6 just cause. The CT/HG Model/1 put onboard most of the cheap freighters would be 1dton/2000kg (distributed inside the hull with a workstation or central hosted room), speed 3 so complexity 1 problems like a +0 gunnery shot is .1s resolution time, and no EP.


I think the original CT computers were predicated on the original USN shipboard computers and didn't have Moore's Law built in. In any event if we are doing TL6 USN computers we'll make those a business level computer and that gets us 1 dton at likely their reliability rate.

Each jump we'll rate at complexity 5 per Jn. Throwing a high complexity problem at a computer CAN be solved, but it will take large amounts of time, increment one time level per difference in model number vs. complexity problem.
So a complexity 5 J-1 at the postulated Speed 3 Model/1 is four levels of complexity above the computers rating. Figuring the basic complexity-1 Model/1 is at Speed 3 so .1s base speed, it increments up 4 levels 1s/10s/100s/1000s. The average CT turn is 1000s, so this works out.
For every level of complexity less the problem is then the model number, decrement by a level. So a Complexity-0 problem would be .01s.


So a big deal is figuring out how complex a problem is and then how much time involved. Really could amp up science/exploration games, or feeling the crunch of not having enough computer available Out There.

Advantaged gunnery and evade programs incur speed increment cost. Regular gunnery costs 1 speed increment which is within the complexity level, a +1 to hit gunnery program would cost complexity 2 and thus take our example Model/1 .1s computer to 1s per solution.

I would probably charge off that time to that character 'hogging the bandwidth', the computer frees up for other use and they likely would get away with no ill effect. If however the gunner used a +2 program it would cost 10s and maybe in that time an enemy fired at the pilot didn't have evasion control to use evade tasks/programs.


Reliability in CT terms is consumer takes 4 hits on the CT computer fail roll per single hit, business takes 2 hits, avionic takes 1 hit, critical takes hit only on 3- on 1d6. Model number reduction on the same schedule for HG.



I don't know how far I'd go with all this, just spitballing a way to define/make computers that makes sense.

 

[coliver988]

and in reading through the thread and the Apple riff, it does make you wonder about software validation. In the 70s, shareware and typing things in from Computer Shopper (back when it was the size of a large phone book! Err, back when it existed...) there was not as much concern for a lot of things. Mostly because personal computers were very rudimentary and did nothing really critical.

Times have changed.

Anyway, I wonder about hardware and software certification for ship computers. I like Kilemall's approach to reliability as a factor. The same could also apply to software: get the legal version of generate for MCr.8 or the discount version/write your own and have that added risk.

And that also brings up salvage, and I think another thread covered parts of this. Can you salvage a ship's computer, and its software? In the Mongoose version the computer is spread out all over the ship, not a specific giant box of parts. But software? Of would software be locked to the specific ship or computer it was purchased for, to prevent the secondary market?

And for me, I'm okay with the big computers of Classic Traveller. I like playing in the cassette era of science fiction.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Software should cost nothing for interstellar polity military designed spacecraft, since you should assume it would be covered by some form of general licence, if not programmed inhouse.

2. Pirates probably pirated theirs.

3. There should be no mysteries by now concerning spacecraft operations, so most of computer programmes made for spacecraft would be open source.

4. Open source should ensure that any weaknesses in the source code would have been detected after three millenia, and eliminated.

5. The only hardware that would require customized or paid software would be prototypes, or predictive, or proprietary.

6. Or customized programmes specific to certain models, combinations of hardware, or iStars.

7. And if you can't afford an iStar starship, you could hire a hacker to optimize the performance on your current ride.

8. I think the three programmes that ship captains would pay for and want certified are astrogation, fusion plants, and jump drive.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Having worked in one industry which is heavily computer dependent I can confirm that in the last 45 years, not one of the institutions has seen computer rooms get smaller as computers became cheaper. All have just used the space to get more and more computing power jammed in.

They may have become more remote, more resilient and more physically secure (moats, gates, bridges, walls, truck-bomb proof designs, armed guards) but definitely not smaller.

 

[whartung]

Having worked in one industry which is heavily computer dependent I can confirm that in the last 45 years, not one of the institutions has seen computer rooms get smaller as computers became cheaper. All have just used the space to get more and more computing power jammed in.

Given in place infrastructure, there's little need to repurpose it.

By the same token, new infrastructure (i.e. new computer rooms) do become substantially smaller.

We replace an NCR mainframe (boy was that thing a beast, something out of a comic book is was so big) with a pizza box Sun and a port expander. I honestly don't know what they did with the room that used to host the old machine. They didn't put the Sun box in there, that was outside on a desk.

Software for starships works like software for cars. It's built in to the devices, "no user serviceable parts inside". Just like the infotainment systems on your car.

You want a new nav on your car? You swap out the entire unit, use an external device, or convince the manufacturer to update theirs.

The drive would be towards opening up, documenting, and standardization of interfaces within the ships and vehicles, so that it would be easier to incorporate a new, 3rd party unit.

But loading arbitrary software from the wild, that's a different kettle of fish.

I know my car has more computers than my house does. For redundancy, for reliability, etc. I imagine the ABS software is baked in to its controller, while it communicates with standard protocols over the CAN bus to the other controllers on the car. The ABS software is unrelated to the climate control software built in to that unit (which is also interfaced to the same CAN bus).

Then there's the drive train software, the suspension software, the "rain sensing wipers" software. And, finally, the infotainment system. Some of this is flashable, others are FRU, Field Replaceable Units. They don't reflash the software they replace the part.

This is a significant part of the "Right to repair" movement, but even if that gains real momentum, I doubt it's going to make the manufacturers open up their low level software. Rather document the control surfaces at integration. Let someone else drop in their own Field Planting Unit in to their new tractor and replace the one from the manufacturer.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Given in place infrastructure, there's little need to repurpose it.

By the same token, new infrastructure (i.e. new computer rooms) do become substantially smaller.

We replace an NCR mainframe (boy was that thing a beast, something out of a comic book is was so big) with a pizza box Sun and a port expander. I honestly don't know what they did with the room that used to host the old machine. They didn't put the Sun box in there, that was outside on a desk.

That is the difference between an industry where computing helps you do something else and one where computing is what you do.

 

[Condottiere]

That's the difference between good enough and keeping pace with increasing demands, especially data processing.

There would be an arms race between evasion and prediction programmes, and unless there's an arms race for quantum encryption for communications, chances are that our cellphones are good enough.

And flight computers.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

That's the difference between good enough and keeping pace with increasing demands, especially data processing.

There would be an arms race between evasion and prediction programmes, and unless there's an arms race for quantum encryption for communications, chances are that our cellphones are good enough.

And flight computers.

I was wondering if the oldest piece of technology I own that meets that definition is the wooden spoon? Or the bamboo skewer?

Now that would make a Vilani smile - especially if they held the patent.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[whartung]

I was wondering if the oldest piece of technology I own that meets that definition is the wooden spoon? Or the bamboo skewer?

What, no chopsticks?

 

[robject]

We replace an NCR mainframe (boy was that thing a beast, something out of a comic book is was so big) with a pizza box Sun and a port expander. I honestly don't know what they did with the room that used to host the old machine. They didn't put the Sun box in there, that was outside on a desk.

In telecom, cramped New York centers replaced large digital switches with 1U-style affairs, relieving a capacity crunch.

Of course that was almost a generation ago now...

 

[robject]

What, no chopsticks?

Skewers seem more primal than chopsticks, but yeah!

We have fancy plastic chopsticks (does that make them TL 5?) but also bamboo ones (TL 0?). Both were probably manufactured en masse and abroad (TL 7) and shipped over here as an imbalance item via container ship (TL 7)...

My slide rule is kind of a TL 4 abacus... sort of... but again the TL 7 infrastructure...

Even the TL 1 tomato plant in our backyard came from a nursery, which probably mass-grew them in a curated hothouse a couple hundred miles away (TL 7) with heat and electricity (TL 6) and shipped here via a newish 18 wheel rig (TL 7)...

 

[Condottiere]

 

[whartung]

Even the TL 1 tomato plant in our backyard came from a nursery, which probably mass-grew them in a curated hothouse a couple hundred miles away (TL 7) with heat and electricity (TL 6) and shipped here via a newish 18 wheel rig (TL 7)...

Save for "Heirloom" vegetables, I question whether anything we eat is TL 1. Anything cultivated has gone through so many generations with mans thumb on the scale plus the recent GMO and other hybridization stuff.

 

[aramis]

Skewers seem more primal than chopsticks, but yeah!

We have fancy plastic chopsticks (does that make them TL 5?) but also bamboo ones (TL 0?). Both were probably manufactured en masse and abroad (TL 7) and shipped over here as an imbalance item via container ship (TL 7)...

My slide rule is kind of a TL 4 abacus... sort of... but again the TL 7 infrastructure...

Even the TL 1 tomato plant in our backyard came from a nursery, which probably mass-grew them in a curated hothouse a couple hundred miles away (TL 7) with heat and electricity (TL 6) and shipped here via a newish 18 wheel rig (TL 7)...

Bamboo is definitely TL0. Chopsticks are, essentially, short stout skewers... at least the bamboo ones... and are easier to make than proper skewers, since bamboo splits straight and easily. You can make them with any sharp wedge, including stone or bone. Skewers need to be sharpened at one end. It's a case of

Sliderules can be made at TL1... copper sliderules can be made by C-channel and a raised center sheet; once you can make sheet copper, you can also make a manual break press to make the center sheet, and can use it as well to start the folds for the flat/wide C-channel.

...and the face can be etched or scribed. Etching by applying a wax resist, scribing it, then using stomach acid in dinner's stomach...

Log scales can be generated by a mechanical process, using a ruled square with a pivot arm at one end and the work offset. (I discovered this back in 1981 by use of a slipstick in math class right after doing some string art plots... I got a bit of extra credit for asking my science teacher about it.)

The sliderule is one of those cases where once the concept is grasped, even at TL 0 a crude version can be manufactured, using just gridded references in a jig, and marked with crude berry inks.

Also, I'll quibble about the comparison of sliderule to abacus...
The Sliderule is the ALU lookup table, while the abacus is the accumulator - totally different mathematical roles. Complementary tools, but by no means the same things, and barely in the superset "mathematical tools"

 

[aramis]

Save for "Heirloom" vegetables, I question whether anything we eat is TL 1. Anything cultivated has gone through so many generations with mans thumb on the scale plus the recent GMO and other hybridization stuff.

TL1 would be thousands of years of cultivation.

Traveller has a bit of an issue in that TL0 should really be about 10 TL's...

Say, 0.0 being no tools at all

• 0.1 being found items turned tools - clubs of bone or wood, plants as fishing lures for ants and termites, unmodified stones as hammer and anvil for cracking nuts and gourds. This is the level of a dozen species of monkey, and the minimum amongst all the apes.
• [0.2 being modifying found tools. This is right about where chimps usually are at present. They don't modify rocks, but do select the right rocks for different tasks. They do strip branches off to make clubs, and have recently been seen crudely pointing sticks to make spears for extracting certain monkeys from tree-hollows.
  This also could include the first supercrude
  
• 0.3 being making of proper stone handaxes, ropes, baskets. Also, potentially, the first hammers and supercrude stone axes. Which also enables cutting and scraping hides and tying hides onto the body.
• 0.4 being fire, composite weapons (bone/wood, bone/stone, stone/wood - all enabled practically by being able to convert bark and sap into proper glues), and the needle - which requires bonework with fine point stone tools.

And so on, until we get to TL1 with its copper age.

Note also: GURPS shares this, but slightly less so...
In both cases, this is because focus was on higher tech levels... GURPS initial was essentially focused on the range iron age to spaceflight; Traveller on steam-age to interstellar

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Save for "Heirloom" vegetables, I question whether anything we eat is TL 1. Anything cultivated has gone through so many generations with mans thumb on the scale plus the recent GMO and other hybridization stuff.

We have several hundred varieties of wild blackberry, sloes, elderberry, plums, damsons, etc. in the hedges here. That is definitely TL0.

The cherries are definitely cultivars that have escaped though.

And if anyone wants Nettle Tea, we can offer a pick-your own service in the flower beds.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The sliderule is one of those cases where once the concept is grasped, even at TL 0 a crude version can be manufactured, using just gridded references in a jig, and marked with crude berry inks.

This begs the question of whether the TLs are relating to the technology advancement on earth (skill + knowledge) or just the skill part as the knowledge is (effectively) universally available.

You could build a flying machine (kite, hot air balloon) at TL1
We didn't because we didn't know we could until later.

Similarly, why do TL-5 planets build rifles that are only good at shooting unarmoured TL-5 opponents when all the neighbours are TL-10. At least some of the TL-5 units would be tasked with having big-rifles that could take out those TL-10 guys in armour. OK - So each one needs a crew of 3 but at least it isn't a totally one-sided massacre.

I may have strayed off-topic here!