Military Economies (A snapshot of Spinward Marches)

[Timerover51]

A lot of that cost is how much you pay your troops. The US military pays singularly well for their soldiers. Many nations pay far less. Then there's conscription. If that's being used, the troops may receive very little pay in many cases.

Throw in the cost of quarters, food, etc. Depending on how this is handled the cost could be low to exorbitant. What if the Imperial Army et. al., generally had troops occupying some world build their own quarters out of local materials appropriated for that purpose? That's very common throughout history. Garrison troops might even be required to raise some portion of their food supply in some cases.

So, the cost per soldier could vary considerably.

You need to consider the cost of High Tech Level equipment and troop training, and also the very wide range of environments that the Imperium operates in. One worlds with tainted atmosphere and Vacuum to Very Thin atmospheres, you will need pressurized barracks or barracks with filtered air, with any operation requiring troops training in pressure suits and pressurized vehicles. The US Army in World War 2 determined that it was cheaper to supply pre-fabricated housing overseas than to try and build with local materials, if local materials were even available.

Typically, military personnel are not enthralled with unfamiliar food, which you may have to feed if dependent on local resources. Mutton, widely eaten in Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand, was not regarded as acceptable by US troops. Canned mutton was even more disliked, as was Australian "Bully Beef". The Japanese supply system assumed that the troops would grow their own food and to an extent live off of the land. That did not work well on the Pacific islands.

 

[Duke Craig]

Hi All

just bumping for the sake of the recent economics thread.

Thanks for the bump, flykiller.

 

[Duke Craig]

Revisiting my earlier post

Thanks for these important questions.
The answer to the first question is probably yes, depending on the era that you are using. Because Sylea at Year 0 had TL = C, but Capital had TL = F in 1100. These SRU values are in Resource Units. Multiply by 5,000 million (yes, that is 5 trillion) to convert to CrImp Imperial Credits. Which suggests that they are modified to TL 12 in the early era (Third Imperium 0-400), and TL 15 in the classic era (1105). Because TL C is the "gold standard" in Early (T4) era whereas TL F is the "gold standard" in the Classic (1105) era.

Opps. I just noticed an error in my earlier post.
These SRU values are in Resource Units. Multiply by 5,000 million (yes, that is 5 trillion)...
Cr 5,000 million is Cr 5 billion. NOT Cr 5 trillion as mentioned within the brackets in the earlier post.

Sorry for any confusion generated from the earlier post.


Has anyone else used the algorithms in T4 Pocket Empires to assist them to flesh out YTU?


Thanks for reading.
Cheers.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

/snip/


Has anyone else used the algorithms in T4 Pocket Empires to assist them to flesh out YTU?


Thanks for reading.
Cheers.

Not exactly. Since very similar data is generated in T5 SysGen I am thinking of how to adapt it to my ATU. And I own a horridly over highlighted copy of T4: PE. Much love for that book, first real look at working nobles and how the Imperium functioned in the early days.

 

[Enoki]

You need to consider the cost of High Tech Level equipment and troop training, and also the very wide range of environments that the Imperium operates in. One worlds with tainted atmosphere and Vacuum to Very Thin atmospheres, you will need pressurized barracks or barracks with filtered air, with any operation requiring troops training in pressure suits and pressurized vehicles. The US Army in World War 2 determined that it was cheaper to supply pre-fabricated housing overseas than to try and build with local materials, if local materials were even available.

Typically, military personnel are not enthralled with unfamiliar food, which you may have to feed if dependent on local resources. Mutton, widely eaten in Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand, was not regarded as acceptable by US troops. Canned mutton was even more disliked, as was Australian "Bully Beef". The Japanese supply system assumed that the troops would grow their own food and to an extent live off of the land. That did not work well on the Pacific islands.

That is true for troops that are in field operations. I suspect much of what the Imperium does with ground troops is occupation and garrison duty. The Imperial Marines are the offensive troops most of the time.

If that's the case, an Army garrison / occupation force really isn't doing a lot of fighting. They do training exercises and occasionally show their muscle. But, for the most part they have time to do stuff like engineering tasks and such.
On worlds like vacuum planets or other hostile environments I could see specialized engineers or contractors coming in to build the basics then leave it up to the troops to improve on things afterwards. After all, these troops would have to learn to deal with their environment.

In any case, sure pre-fabricated buildings could be used. The troops could be the ones tasked with assembly too. But, such buildings might also be seen as a starting point and the troops continue to build more "stuff" afterwards to add to their comfort.

 

[Duke Craig]

IMTU possible heresy within...

Bump.

Thanks for reading.

 

[BRover]

. . .
You are only thinking teeth, you are forgetting about the supporting tail, which is going to be a lot more people that the teeth.

The K'kree tails are not that big. But please take your horrid, carnivorous teeth elsewhere.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

That is true for troops that are in field operations. I suspect much of what the Imperium does with ground troops is occupation and garrison duty. The Imperial Marines are the offensive troops most of the time.

If that's the case, an Army garrison / occupation force really isn't doing a lot of fighting.

It is specifically noted that the Marines are only used for Attack and destruction. They don't have any equipment for softly-softly counter-insurgency work. Their idea of urban search is tactical nukes, and go home.

Anything short of that is the Army.

Which makes their long-running occupation of Karin/Five Sisters a nightmare for the Marines inflicted on them by the Navy...Hmmm...May be a game there!

 

[Timerover51]

Having been trained as a supply officer, and having a strong interest in logistics, from pre-internal combustion to modern, I keep looking at all of the focus on combat troops and mentally thinking what it takes to support them. During World War 2, the initial figure for a Division-slice, or one division and all of the needed supporting troops, was 30,000, assuming an infantry division of 15,000. Once the U.S. actually got into the war, the numbers for a division slice kept climbing with the final figure being around 60,000. Note, that does not include all of the civilian production workers actually producing the material needs by the troops. As one of the problems faced by the U.S. was the need to send everything overseas, that would be a closer analogy to the Imperium or any planet needing to send military units to another star system. The British ended up with a figure close to that of the U.S. Focusing strictly on combat troops will give a very distorted view of what a military costs. That does not even include the long-term costs of pensions for retired personnel and long-term medical care.

By 1944, about 45 percent of the U.S. Gross National Produce was going to military and related production, German was running around 50 percent, and in 1943 the UK managed an incredible 60 per cent, which could not be sustained and came close to breaking their economy. Japan was running around 50 percent of an economy only 10 percent the size of the U.S. They also had the problem of shipping everything overseas, and never really did solve that problem. They had at the start of the war only about half of the shipping needed to support their economy, and things went downhill from there.

It should also be noted that by 1944, the U.S. was producing as much military equipment as the Entire Rest of the World. I do not believe that figure includes all of the agricultural equipment we were sending overseas, nor all of the railway equipment that we were shipping overseas.

If you care to download from the Center for Military History the two volume series on Global Logistics and Strategy, you will get a much better understanding of what it takes to support any military endeavor. Basically, the question tnat always faced Allied planners was, can this operation be supported and how are we going to do it. There were never enough transport and cargo ships to go around.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Theirs a quote form Churchill, spoken during the planning for D-day, and in the context of the compromises being made as to whether the planned pacific island invasions and attack on southern france could go ahead at the same time as D-day due to the lack of landing ships.

I cant find the exact words, but it went something like:

"I find it incredible that the fate of two great nations now seems to rest on the availability, or lack theirof, of these things called LSTs" (Landing Ship, Tank)

 

[Condottiere]

Teeth to tail ratio has to be balanced, and it depends on proximity.

From combat support, to logistics, the military industrial complex, and finally, the underlying economy.

As I recall Heinlein, I think he states it was one to one pre industrial, one to five during the Great Patriotic War, and one to nine in Vietnam.

The Marines can afford a slim one, because they piggy back off the Navy.

Moving on to Pournelle, the CoDominium Marines are divided into three primary branches and missions, Line, Garrison, and Fleet.