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My say on T5.

D

Dracous

SOC-2
My comment on T5.

I don't own a copy, I was never part of the beta, or the Kickstarter, all my information I have gleaned from online reviews.

I referee two different groups, of which only my wife and I are in both groups. This comes to a total of eight players. One of these groups has been with me since classic Traveller, and they have taken part in MegaTrav (which they loved), New Era (which they hated, except my wife, she loved it), T4 (Which they did not like the dice mechanic), T20 (Where they got sick of me changing systems, and had issues with the levelling, balance, etc), and finally MgT (Where they are pleased that it seems close to Classic Trav).

I own a copy of GURPS Trav as well. However, never played it, as I could not;
  • Subject my poor players to another rules system
  • Could not get imperial measurements... I grew up in a metric system.

This group found the character creation in Mongoose a confusing and hard to use. Just saying.

OK, so to the point. Judging from what I have read here, on COTI, and on the TML, there is frankly, no way that I am going to ask these people to pick up T5. I think I would face open revolt (pretty close to what I got with TNE, which I persisted with far too long).

Some factors that have gone into my decision;


  • My players don't really like a roll under system. Double sixes make their eyes light up. So I would not be using the task system. I find that games are generally built around the task system (especially combat), so that I expect would cut great swathes out of the book for me.

  • The various "maker" systems and QREBS. Nice idea, however, I suspect that the "things" made will be tied into the task system (how could they not?). So I would have to do my own customization. If I am planning to customize before I purchase, that is a red flag for "value for money". Also, I don't need it. MgT's Central Supply Catalogue already has a QREBS equivalent and item construction equivalent. I use that a lot for building gear and weapons.

  • Errata - I am having enough issues with the MgT errata. Some of the errata I have seen for T5 looks very annoying. I have to say made all the more annoying by the knowledge that this product had the longest play test for almost any RPG I have ever heard of, and there are still, what I would regard as fundamental errors in character creation, vehicle design, etc. Despite the incredibly long development cycle, the production of this book was still a rushed job. I can't tell you how much that annoys me.

  • Even the positive reviews that I have read have indicated that using this product is a lot of work to use. I already put in a lot of work for my custom campaigns. I don't need to do any more. I do not have the time.

  • I like officially supported systems. This project is not officially supported. It is a hobby project, run from Marc's study. New products will be slow arriving, second editions may never be produced. Somebody is going to make the "But it's only early days!" comment. My rather blunt reply to that is that it shouldn't be "early days", it has been too long for "early days" to be a factor.

  • There does not appear to be anything that has been given in a review that has made me think "Cool!". A mention of three different types of jump drives have tickled my fancy. That was not enough to get me to lay down cash.

OK, final comment. This book is someone’s view of the ultimate Traveller game. Some people share that view. I do not share that view. Please do not let my view detract from your enjoyment of the game.
I will not be purchasing this product. I will be giving negative recommendation to my fellow players, based on the all the reviews, both positive and negative, that I have read (and video's I have watched).

Sorry T5 fans. This is not "The Ultimate Traveller", this is "Just another Traveller".
 
Dracous said:
Errata - I am having enough issues with the MgT errata. Some of the errata I have seen for T5 looks very annoying. I have to say made all the more annoying by the knowledge that this product had the longest play test for almost any RPG I have ever heard of, and there are still, what I would regard as fundamental errors in character creation, vehicle design, etc.
Click to expand...

Errata: The only consistency in Traveller since 1977

Dracous said:
Despite the incredibly long development cycle, the production of this book was still a rushed job. I can't tell you how much that annoys me.
Click to expand...

This was truly Shameful. I haven't heard an acceptable excuse for this yet. (There isn't one). I loved the "had to go to print for the kickstarters" then months to ship...

Dracous said:
I like officially supported systems. This project is not officially supported. It is a hobby project, run from Marc's study. New products will be slow arriving, second editions may never be produced. Somebody is going to make the "But it's only early days!" comment. My rather blunt reply to that is that it shouldn't be "early days", it has been too long for "early days" to be a factor.
Click to expand...

Or simply abandoned like how many other versions?

Dracous said:
Sorry T5 fans. This is not "The Ultimate Traveller", this is "Just another Traveller".
Click to expand...

Sadly, true

Still, I'm happy I got mine. Confused yet? I am...
 
A bit harsh considering you haven't read it.

That said I think it's a given that, due to its size and semi-amateur production, T5 is hardly going to lack criticism.

For the record, I'm less interested in arguments about lack of support given the vast amount material already written for Traveller over the years. I wish they had put together a better organised book, with an index, but I am open minded about the mechanics so long as they work. In all I intend to treat it as a toolbox of ideas, rather than an exclusive standalone game. So maybe I have different expectations. I'd rather own the book than not own it.
 
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Dracous said:
My comment on T5.

I don't own a copy, I was never part of the beta, or the Kickstarter, all my information I have gleaned from online reviews.

I referee two different groups, of which only my wife and I are in both groups. This comes to a total of eight players. One of these groups has been with me since classic Traveller, and they have taken part in MegaTrav (which they loved), New Era (which they hated, except my wife, she loved it), T4 (Which they did not like the dice mechanic), T20 (Where they got sick of me changing systems, and had issues with the levelling, balance, etc), and finally MgT (Where they are pleased that it seems close to Classic Trav).

I own a copy of GURPS Trav as well. However, never played it, as I could not;
  • Subject my poor players to another rules system
  • Could not get imperial measurements... I grew up in a metric system.

This group found the character creation in Mongoose a confusing and hard to use. Just saying.

OK, so to the point. Judging from what I have read here, on COTI, and on the TML, there is frankly, no way that I am going to ask these people to pick up T5. I think I would face open revolt (pretty close to what I got with TNE, which I persisted with far too long).

Some factors that have gone into my decision;


  • My players don't really like a roll under system. Double sixes make their eyes light up. So I would not be using the task system. I find that games are generally built around the task system (especially combat), so that I expect would cut great swathes out of the book for me.

  • The various "maker" systems and QREBS. Nice idea, however, I suspect that the "things" made will be tied into the task system (how could they not?). So I would have to do my own customization. If I am planning to customize before I purchase, that is a red flag for "value for money". Also, I don't need it. MgT's Central Supply Catalogue already has a QREBS equivalent and item construction equivalent. I use that a lot for building gear and weapons.

  • Errata - I am having enough issues with the MgT errata. Some of the errata I have seen for T5 looks very annoying. I have to say made all the more annoying by the knowledge that this product had the longest play test for almost any RPG I have ever heard of, and there are still, what I would regard as fundamental errors in character creation, vehicle design, etc. Despite the incredibly long development cycle, the production of this book was still a rushed job. I can't tell you how much that annoys me.

  • Even the positive reviews that I have read have indicated that using this product is a lot of work to use. I already put in a lot of work for my custom campaigns. I don't need to do any more. I do not have the time.

  • I like officially supported systems. This project is not officially supported. It is a hobby project, run from Marc's study. New products will be slow arriving, second editions may never be produced. Somebody is going to make the "But it's only early days!" comment. My rather blunt reply to that is that it shouldn't be "early days", it has been too long for "early days" to be a factor.

  • There does not appear to be anything that has been given in a review that has made me think "Cool!". A mention of three different types of jump drives have tickled my fancy. That was not enough to get me to lay down cash.

OK, final comment. This book is someone’s view of the ultimate Traveller game. Some people share that view. I do not share that view. Please do not let my view detract from your enjoyment of the game.
I will not be purchasing this product. I will be giving negative recommendation to my fellow players, based on the all the reviews, both positive and negative, that I have read (and video's I have watched).

Sorry T5 fans. This is not "The Ultimate Traveller", this is "Just another Traveller".
Click to expand...


Personally, though I'm not much of a fan of hearsay, I've found the reviews to be basically correct. Let me explain how I've come up with a different opinion than you about T5 overall, using these very same reviews but with the huge advantage of having an actual copy to hand (I supported the Kickstarter).

Based on the "pre-reviews" I read, I was set to be disappointed when my copy finally came. When I got it, my initial reaction was pretty much the same as the "first look" and "initial impression" reviewers. However, I've found that most reviewers who have done "follow up" or "second look" reviews have warmed up to T5 as have I.

I have not read any in depth reviews so far, and personally I'm currently digging deeply into the rules myself. I think this is a good place to pause and reflect for a moment. This is one of the very, very few RPG game rules books I've ever read into which you actually can dig deeply. There are a lot of very excellent rules systems in here. And, this has got to be among the most internally consistent sets of RPG rules, ever. There is real genius, or probably more correctly solid evidence of decades of refinement, in the internal underpinning of this RPG Rules set.

But that is getting off the point... I think. What I'm trying to share is basically, do believe the hype, and there is no need to request even one player (who does not share Traveller DMing duties) to buy this Core Rules Book. However, it appears to me, the more I personally dig through and into the T5 Core Rules book, that the DM who has the time and intellect to master these rules will have the very best game mechanic foundation on which to build his future Traveller games possible to date.

I'd suggest that if you are happy with the Traveller rules you are running currently, and especially if you have ongoing campaigns, don't just up and change. However, if you think there might be some areas where your current Traveller system could use some help, just get one copy of the T5 Core Rules (book or PDF; the PDF might actually be best as the "find" function can be helpful, though it is not a replacement for the missing index). You might want to wait for a "second printing" or until the errata is complete, but that is of lesser importance in my opinion. Take the time to thoroughly review and understand the underlying rules mechanics. You may find that pieces of what you are reading will help your current games, but I don't recommend that you swap out the entire campaign and switch the players over, just yet. Instead, unless it becomes obvious it will never happen, I'd wait until the Player's Book is written.

T5 really does seem to be, if not "The Ultimate Traveller", a vast technological improvement of Classic Traveller; and more of a direct descendant of same than any of the previous versions. It is not, however, (and much like CT before it) for the faint of heart.
 
Just a couple of personal observations to join in the conversation:

Dracous said:
I don't own a copy, I was never part of the beta, or the Kickstarter, all my information I have gleaned from online reviews.
Click to expand...
This is the greatest problem that I see with almost all of the reviews that I have read ... too much "I flipped through the pages and didn't like the layout" and too little "we tried playing a game and this is what happened." I know a lot about indexes and chapter organization and very little about how it feels to use the mechanics.

The various "maker" systems and QREBS. Nice idea, however, I suspect that the "things" made will be tied into the task system (how could they not?). So I would have to do my own customization. If I am planning to customize before I purchase, that is a red flag for "value for money".
Click to expand...
I have no comment on the value issue since that is a very personal opinion sort of issue (and personally, since FFE released the Classic Traveller CD, nothing has felt like a really good value in comparison :) ).
With respect to making things ... most things seem pretty systemless. OK, weapon damage is tied closely to the hit point part of the combat system, but ultimately a killogram is a killogram in any game system. If the design system can reasonably replicate any real world vehicle, then I can assume that the weight, range and speed of any fictional vehicle that it creates will be reasonably accurate as well.
 
atpollard said:
This is the greatest problem that I see with almost all of the reviews that I have read ... too much "I flipped through the pages and didn't like the layout" and too little "we tried playing a game and this is what happened." I know a lot about indexes and chapter organization and very little about how it feels to use the mechanics.
Click to expand...

Capsule Game Review: I've led two games so far, and I found Traveller5 easy to use. The task system is intuitive and flexible -- we got over any roll-low aversion after ten minutes of use. Combat is fast and deadly. I could manage two squads of armed and armored combatants on both sides in combat sessions -- and I'm not a very good multitasker -- that only took a small portion of the total game time. It was easier (for me) to run T5 than Classic, Mongoose, Mega, or T4. Your Mileage Will Vary.


"I Flipped Thru The Book and Didn't Like the Layout"

RPG books in this millennium should be accessible; they should flow, be organized, and be newbie friendly. The RPG world expects this. We want this.

It takes a dedicated fan to dig thru the Traveller5 core rules and learn what it's like.

That is a barrier.

As discussion and midrash grows, this will be less of a barrier.

If the Player's Handbook is accessible (and yes, fans' opinions matter), that particular barrier will be essentially gone.

If you want the Player's Handbook to be accessible, write Marc an email, now if you like.

Marc Miller: FarFuture@AOL.com (does this email address still work?)
 
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Original_Carl said:
You're begging for trolling here. :devil:
Click to expand...

Actually, I wanted people who read my comments to be clear on where I was coming from. Everyone on this forum will have a lot of knowledge about the rules, but I won't. So everyone knows my comments have to come from a viewpoint of ignorance. Any rules based comment I make comes for a viewpoint of ignorance.

Hopefully an attempt to be honest on my part.

Also, these are my current opinions, I reserve the right to change them. ;)
 
Dracous said:
Actually, I wanted people who read my comments to be clear on where I was coming from. Everyone on this forum will have a lot of knowledge about the rules, but I won't. So everyone knows my comments have to come from a viewpoint of ignorance. Any rules based comment I make comes for a viewpoint of ignorance.

Hopefully an attempt to be honest on my part.

Also, these are my current opinions, I reserve the right to change them. ;)
Click to expand...

Sounds Fair .... !

Éli,
 
Traveller 5, some honest facts

Hello fellow Travellers,
Not wanting to start another thread for reviews, I decided just to tack this on to an existing open thread for discussion.

Firstly as many of you know I am a huge fan of the new Traveller 5, however there is a pile of points I've been adding to on the work as a whole, which unfortunately are negatives for the system and of which I believe will be fixable with A) That in the pipeline Players guide and B) An updated CDROM correcting all the bloopers.

The main points I'd like to highlight for providing to those who actively update and work with Marc to correct issues with the system are:

* The system has a lot of great new features for Traveller, however it's not in any way for a beginner RPG player or players who are new to the Traveller system. A superb RPG, allows anyone to take the core rules and begin gaming in a minimum amount of time. As it stands, there's no way anyone could have a game with the system out of the box, if not for lack of understanding for the simple fact that it's so full of errors, you can't play it out of the box in any case.

* One fellow long time Traveller exclaimed to me, that they found T5 to be more of a toolkit for creating a Science Fiction RPG from the ground up as opposed to what they were hoping for which was a well laid out RPG game ready to use. That fellow Travellers favourite rules system is Traveller TNE for the record and comparing TNE to T5, shows a massive step back in terms of quality, structure, organisation and attention to detail. Alas comparing the 2 works side by side, I'd have to agree with him. In fact despite many Travellers declaring TNE, 'The New Error', this particular Traveller argues it was perfect out of the box and had no problems with any of it, and actually ignored all the errata for the system.

* After going through the book, cutting and pasting slips of paper all over the place and penciling in the updates for the many and varied errors in the book(everything from entire tables to the inexcusable issue of every single character class containing similar errors which highlights copy and past issues), I'd have to argue that perhaps when it comes to RPG's, that the work should pass through at least 3 editors, one after the other, to catch all the unforgivable mistakes and obvious bloopers. For a book that's supposed to be the shining crown of the Traveller universe and aspiring to be the 'ultimate edition', it's now created a rift between players once again from A) Leaving many fellow Travellers wanting to run away, stick to there old systems and if lucky maybe they will incorporate some of the new additions, through to Z) People like myself who see there's real potential here, would like a defined set of rules that most Travellers can agree on, like for the most part and dare I say it, finally have a rule set, to be 'THE OFFICIAL RULES' of Traveller. As it stands today, most Travellers have there particular rules, stick to them and just add what they want. I don't know of many other systems out there were people want to do this. EG, Call Of Cthulhu, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun and the White Wolf game systems for example. Look at those, when I've played any of those game systems, the rules are upheld, there not changed because Bill Smith decides that they don't like the rule on sanity points and wants to change it to suit themselves(obviously there's nothing to stop that and if that's what all players want and it makes them happy then good for them), however for myself, I like a defined set of rules to hold the game together. Without that, chaos reins, arguments can never be won and the referees job becomes a nightmare as opposed to an enjoyable experience. Yes, RPG's are different to a board game, but surely everyone must agree that when one person cheats in a board game, it's downright annoying and ruins the enjoyment for everyone else. So too, in an RPG. Yes there's a limitless amount of thing you can do, however the point of a good RPG, is to hinge it all on a solid foundation of rules. EG, you have to actually ROLE PLAY, the characters for example. The character is not just you and what you would like to do in this universe, it's an individual and some of that individuals aspects should be role played(often when you least want them to, but that's one of the elements that keeps the game fun). So too with rules and being able to declare, you can only add that skill due to it's ability to be combined with strength for example. It's a no-arguments everyone understands that. When the rules are 'adjustable' or 'open to interpretation' by the referee and the players, well good luck to that game. On the other hand when the rules are all agreed on, it makes everyone think and enjoy the game more, as they have to work within the limitations of there characters, while the referee has the fun of providing challenges they know these characters will not be able to resist. :)
So to sum up this point: 'A Defined Rules game system woven into The Traveller universe', is what I was looking for. Something to remove 'well table X from rule system 1.0 says', but hey 'table X from rule system MT or MGT declares this, 'this one looks better for me ref I reckon we should go off this one', 'no hang on I designed the game with this one here', 'well I'm not playing said the annoyed player and the game ends'. Make sense? All removed with a good rule system to remove conflicts.

* Hopefully an updated CDROM removing all these errors, will be forthcoming. I'm convinced that the release was only in an alpha stage and no one seemed to care about proof reading and editing at all. In fact is it fair to admit, that perhaps the wrong files went to the printers full stop? I hope that doesn't hit any nerves and I'm glad that there's some dedicated individuals here who are doing everything they can to ensure the system is well supported. (I'm sure they too, must wish that more editing and checking had taken place before the publishing idea was even put forward). I was going to purchase a 2nd copy of the book to use as my gaming copy, but due to all the errors, I am reluctant to do so. I would however purchase an updated CDROM and just print out the sections and tables I require to provide the updated rules components for use in games as permitted by the authors.

* For the system to reach a successful status and hopefully bring back Travellers who have been turned off, the players guide is going to have to be something special. Even the worst errors can be overlooked, so long as decent support is available (Just look at the MS operating systems. lol).

That's the main points I felt it was time to be honest about, as I'm trying to incorporate T5 into my next game, however so far my group is only interested in rules from MT and TNE as those are established and one fellow Traveller already spent a lot of time getting the MT rules set perfect. To have to re-invent the wheel and do it all again for T5 is simply not an option and frankly that's fair enough. Support for a game system is only going to be as good as the quality of the game system itself in my firm opinion and sadly T5 in all honesty, is seriously lacking in quality upon this first release.

Here's hoping the players guide book to come can bring Travellers back to the canon T5(Or T6 or whatever the new edition is to be called) Traveller system and that if a future edition of Traveller is to be released at all, it's done so with a much higher standard of editing, spell checking, correcting etc. In fact a draft print should be performed to go through the actual paper edition first and find all this stuff. It shouldn't be dumped on the players to fix up.

Traveller is a rich Science Fiction game system with arguably more depth and detail than any other Science Fiction game system ever made. Personally I enjoy piecing together all the 'official canon' aspects of the game as to me, that wheel is already made and I'd like to expand upon that terrific work as opposed to creating my own Traveller universe different to everyone elses. I'd like to contribute to the Traveller system and just make that universe even better. I guess it's the solid operating system being the devil you know and trust versus using the open source chaos of Linux for example. Some people like to concentrate on making something better, others want to go off on there own tangents. I'm the type who likes to accept there's a work that's written and work with it. If I wanted a completely new game system, I'd create one, but I like the elements of Traveller, it's capable of doing most of the things I'd like to game out and others know the system. It would be great if all Travellers could know the system and not have to create there own obscure variant but hey, that's just me.

Here's hoping T5 achieves a serious correcting and results in a perfectly polished product in the future.
 
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While some of your criticisms are spot-on, I'll lend another voice: I like it. I haven't played yet, but it seems to me to be exactly what I hoped for: Classic Traveller Revisited, with the holes plugged and the system made consistent throughout.

You're right about the organization, but that's actually growing on me, too. But, as I've said elsewhere, I'm the kind of guy who likes to spend time learning the rules. REALLY learning the rules. On my 3rd pass, it's making a lot more sense now.

As someone else said, that's a barrier. In fact, I'm going to have to teach my players all the facets of the game to have any hope of it lasting more than a few sessions.

T5 is very "deep". Rich in content, light on fluff. Difficult to follow, but lacking very little meat (if you can find it).

But, for people really interested in pushing CT to its limits, I think T5 provides a framework for that.

NOTE: I haven't gotten the hang of space combat at all yet. Hoping when I get there in my 3rd pass now, it will start to "click" like the rest has.
 
I love T5, i used to love MT now its T5. The organization isn't really a problem for me, i think its quite well organized. Combat works well as does space combat, although it does take a read through or 2. My 1 main sticking point is the inclusion of all the probability tables, i just don't see the point of them. Roleplayers on the whole are an above average intelligence group and it should be fairly obvious if they have a skill of 12 what their odds of rolling less than that is on any amount of dice without needing to reference a table to find out. I would have preferred those same pages to be used on better and more examples of the rules.
 
Probability Tables

Licheking said:
My 1 main sticking point is the inclusion of all the probability tables, i just don't see the point of them. Roleplayers on the whole are an above average intelligence group and it should be fairly obvious if they have a skill of 12 what their odds of rolling less than that is on any amount of dice without needing to reference a table to find out.
Click to expand...

I think they are useful, but are oriented more to GMs than to players. To take Runequest as a comparison, the d100-percent system of skills in RQ is both simple and elegant, and very intuitive. The drawback is that I can know "My character has exactly a 73% chance to do such-and-such", which sometimes overly influences a player's decision to attempt (or not attempt) a task. On the other hand, when a GM says: "You need to roll under a 12 on 5D6", I immediately have a general idea of what that probability looks like, but there is a degree of uncertainty ("Well, the average is 17.5, 12 is less than that, so I am more likely that not to fail, but I am not sure what the exact odds are"). This is probably a little more true-to-life realistic in terms of decision-making.

As a GM, however (especially when designing characters and encounters during prep), I sometimes like to know precise probabilities as to what an NPC's skill (or the likelihood of a given event) are, so that I can tailor things in an adventure to what I intend them to be.

Licheking said:
I would have preferred those same pages to be used on better and more examples of the rules.
Click to expand...

I definitely agree with this. If they absolutely needed to be included in the BBB, they should have been put in an appendix at the back, not in the main body of the work. But a better solution (I think) would be to have made them a (free ?) PDF download from the FFE website, for use by GMs as necessary. As stated above, I think they are useful, but they just don't need to be in the main body of the text (or in the text at all if space is at a premium, which it is in the BBB).
 
Last edited:
whulorigan said:
... a better solution (I think) would be to have made [the probability tables] a (free ?) PDF download from the FFE website, for use by GMs as necessary. As stated above, I think they are useful, but they just don't need to be in the main body of the text (or in the text at all if space is at a premium, which it is in the BBB).
Click to expand...
If they were to make a PDF with the probability tables, that would probably be a good place to offer a chat with the designer on the merits of the 'fistful of dice' game mechanic.

I found that mechanic the single greatest barrier to my becoming personally invested in the T5 beta.
I am probably just hopelessly old school, but I really like the 2D6, roll 8+ game mechanic.

Any chance of winning me over to the T5 mechanic will really require some effort to 'sell' me on how it is so much better. The BBB would not have been the place for that, but a free PDF on dice statistics and the T5 game mechanics would at least allow me to make a more informed decision whether to try the T5 system or just stick with 2D6 roll high.
 
I believe my Traveller GM has a copy; also, the game store we game at has one.

I may get it sometime in the future but that's a while from now as T5 seems better for reference material than for play.
 
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