A couple questions on drive TL effects.

[spank]

@spank:
The thing to remember is that under T5, not only is there a Central Computer (the Model 4/bis) that can independently process tasks, but each of the Consoles themselves is individually computerized and can enable and process tasks and automate them by a crew member (or the computer) initiating them. The Computer itself can effectively fill a number of crew positions (i.e. can "occupy" a number of consoles) up to its rating number (or rating +1 for bis). The consoles themselves can likewise process tasks, they just cannot take initiative like crew (or the computer if it is assigned to a console and/or a task).

Even allowing for the computer replacing five of the engineers you are under staffed.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Except T5 does require engineers,
"Crew are assigned to functions or mechanisms. A Steward
is assigned to Passenger Services; an Astrogator is assigned
to Astrogation. Particularly in the Drive Suite, Engi-
neers are assigned one per 35 tons of Drive mechanism: if
the total drives is less than 35 tons, one Engineer is probably
sufficient; if the total is 45 tons, the ship more likely needs
two Engineers."

This isn't a hard rule, it's how you distribute Engineers.

An Engineer per 35 Dt drive is about what you get with 1 full watch of crew, minimal crew gives you less.

Also you need to double your fuel, because of the overtonnage.

Agreed, I thought my spreadsheet did this automatically, I had forgot.

 

[spank]

The Probab

This isn't a hard rule, it's how you distribute Engineers.

An Engineer per 35 Dt drive is about what you get with 1 full watch of crew, minimal crew gives you less.



Agreed, I thought my spreadsheet did this automatically, I had forgot.

The Probably indicates that only one engineer is Probably enough for a 35 dTon engine. Not that one is Probably needed.
And again, the More likey indicates that two would be better for 45 dTons of engine, I would read that as in contrast to the one engineer of a 35 dTon engine.
And, don't forget this is an Experimental engine , which is going to be temperamental at best. Leaving it untended is not a great plan. I'd say full staffing should be required. At least full staffing, maybe even extra staffing.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And, don't forget this is an Experimental engine , which is going to be temperamental at best. Leaving it untended is not a great plan. I'd say full staffing should be required. At least full staffing, maybe even extra staffing.

Sure more Engineers would be nice, but they have leave the ship before jump as they don't fit...

 

[Spinward Flow]

Sure more Engineers would be nice, but they have leave the ship before jump as they don't fit...

Uh ... they're called Vacc Suits for a reason ...

 

[whulorigan]

Sure more Engineers would be nice, but they have leave the ship before jump as they don't fit...

Uh ... they're called Vacc Suits for a reason ...

Why do I get the image in my head of the actor Slim Pickins in an Engineering Vacc Suit riding on the back of an ejected drop tank tumbling away from the hull of the ship, waving a cowboy hat above his head hollering "Yee-Haw . . . ", just before the experimental Jump Drive explodes?

 

[spank]

Why do I get the image in my head of the actor Slim Pickins in an Engineering Vacc Suit riding on the back of an ejected drop tank tumbling away from the hull of the ship, waving a cowboy hat above his head hollering "Yee-Haw . . . ", just before the experimental Jump Drive explodes?

Let's pull the pin on this thing......

 

[spank]

Sure more Engineers would be nice, but they have leave the ship before jump as they don't fit...

It's not a situation of more would be nice,
This is an EXPERIMENTAL drive.
More is required, Probably even more than the "standard" amount.
This is Honeywell's a flying testbed, and represent the kind of extra crew one might expect for testing Prototype, or Early versions of engines and avionics.


Also,
you are still not accounting for the reduction in the Max Jump potential cause by the Drive being Experimental.
A TL-5 drive is capped at a jump number of 0.5 regardless of how big the EP to Hull ratio is.
The same holds true for a TL-12 Jump Drive.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It's not a situation of more would be nice,
This is an EXPERIMENTAL drive.
More is required, Probably even more than the "standard" amount.

You can make any house rules you want.

you are still not accounting for the reduction in the Max Jump potential cause by the Drive being Experimental.
A TL-5 drive is capped at a jump number of 0.5 regardless of how big the EP to Hull ratio is.
The same holds true for a TL-12 Jump Drive.

Jump is a special case as it is limited by theoretical breakthroughs.

T5.10, B2, p112:
Jump Is A Technological Paradigm Shift
_ _ Discovery of jumpspace and jumpdrive technology requires simultaneous non-traditional breakthroughs in a variety of fields: power generation, short-term power storage, computing technology, field theory, and even an understanding of the obscure properties of lanthanides.
_ _ Jump is a unique: a paradigm shift; a non-logical extension of no known technological sequence; its independent discovery is considered a mark of great species potential.
...
_ _ Of those sophonts who do independently discover jump drive, most develop the most basic technology: jump drive-1; over time, they then progress sequentially to jump-2 and then higher levels.

So:

T5.10, B2, p116:
_ _ Potential Is Limited By Tech Level. Regardless of the table-mandated Potential, a Jump Drive produced at a Tech level is limited by any stated Tech Level restrictions. For example, the maximum Jump available at Tech Level 11 is Jump-2. Regardless of other details, a Jump Drive produced at TL-11 cannot produce more than Jump-2.

If someone hands you the theoretical physics of Jump-6, e.g. the TL-15 Imperium, a world can build an Experimental device three TLs earlier, so TL-12.

T5.10, B2, p224:
What A Factory Produces. A TL-12 factory can produce a variety of stage effects at Tech Level 12:
Experimental Device-12 (implies base TL=15).
Advanced Device-12 (implies base TL= 9).

When using the Starship Drive Potential table (p78), Efficiency is multiplied to the table potential and we can't achieve J-6 at TL-12, but that is a limitation of the table, not the technology.

When using the Drive Potential formula (p63), Efficiency is multiplied to the EP output of the drive, so we can determine how to achieve J-6 at TL-12, by using a larger drive.

Example: In a 200 Dt hull we need a 6 × 200 / 2 = 600 EP (size F) drive. With 50% Efficiency we need a drive with 600 / 50% = 1200 base EP (size M) drive.

Both methods are equally valid, the table is just limited to some standard cases.

 

[spank]

You can make any house rules you want.



Jump is a special case as it is limited by theoretical breakthroughs.

So:


If someone hands you the theoretical physics of Jump-6, e.g. the TL-15 Imperium, a world can build an Experimental device three TLs earlier, so TL-12.


When using the Starship Drive Potential table (p78), Efficiency is multiplied to the table potential and we can't achieve J-6 at TL-12, but that is a limitation of the table, not the technology.

When using the Drive Potential formula (p63), Efficiency is multiplied to the EP output of the drive, so we can determine how to achieve J-6 at TL-12, by using a larger drive.

Example: In a 200 Dt hull we need a 6 × 200 / 2 = 600 EP (size F) drive. With 50% Efficiency we need a drive with 600 / 50% = 1200 base EP (size M) drive.

Both methods are equally valid, the table is just limited to some standard cases.

Once again,
The ultimate potential of an Expermental Jump drive is limited by the effect multiplier.
You don't "unlock" every Jump potential when you get to TL-9,
you have to reach the TL where they are standard.
Until then the TL stage Effect reduces and caps the potential of any lower order drives.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The ultimate potential of an Expermental Jump drive is limited by the effect multiplier.

That is an artefact of the Drive Potential table, a limited subset of possible potentials.

You don't "unlock" every Jump potential when you get to TL-9,

you have to reach the TL where they are standard.

You need the theoretical breakthrough, regardless of the TL. Some races do at TL-9, other races at some other TL.

Until then the TL stage Effect reduces and caps the potential of any lower order drives.

That is an artefact of the Drive Potential table, a limited subset of possible potentials.

 

[spank]

That is an artefact of the Drive Potential table, a limited subset of possible potentials.

This is clearly how it works.

You need the theoretical breakthrough, regardless of the TL. Some races do at TL-9, other races at some other TL.

You need to react the TL where where the stage effects allow you to develop the theory into reality

That is an artefact of the Drive Potential table, a limited subset of possible potentials.

That is clearly not a subset of anything, it lists no drive, nor hull nor EP capacity. It is not a specific example, it is the max possible effect for a given tech level, regardless of which Hull/Engine combination you use.