A couple questions on drive TL effects.

[whulorigan]

Combat-wise, they are the same, I believe.

Well, it depends. Potentially one or more of the A-units could be damaged, leaving the others functional, whereas a single D-unit could be taken entirely out of commission. Now in T5 space combat it would be based on how a compartment hit was interpreted and where the drives were located. In the Gazelle example, a 2A2 Drive (Port A2 & Starboard A2), clearly not all of them are located in the same compartment, and cannot all be hit at once. This allows for "crippling" the port M-Drive (or even only one of the two port M-Drives if they are sufficiently spaced dorsally/ventrally, compartment-wise), leaving the Starboard Drive(s) intact.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Well, it depends. Potentially one or more of the A-units could be damaged, leaving the others functional, whereas a single D-unit could be taken entirely out of commission.

I believe you can draw your deck plans, and hence compartments, as you wish, just as in previous editions. Even a single D-drive could be drawn in two compartments and hence only half destroyed by a single hit.

Edit:
And I would be wrong in that belief...

T5.10, B2, p97:
Drives. Assign Drives to any available SubCompartments. If the tonnage of a Drive is greater than the SubCompartment Tonnage, assign additional adjacent Lines.
If the ship has Jump Grid or Jump Plates, Drives may be in any Compartment. If the Hull has Jump Bubble, assign Jump Drive to a centerline (odd-numbered) Compartment.

I would still maintain that a nexus drive is a single component, even if made by several subcomponent.

T5.10, B2, p63:
A Nexus (plural = Nexi) connects the output up to 9 identical mechanisms, allowing the joined devices to produce greater output.
For example, an N2 or NN G-Drive consists of two N G-Drives connected by a Nexus. The nexus is basically a connection; it adds no tonnage or cost.

An N2 drive is a drive, a component. A nexus is a permanent arrangement, not an ad hoc collection of drives.

 

[spank]

If you want an J-6 drive at TL-12, you have to look at an Experimental drive (and use EP drive performance instead of the drive potential table).

P = 2 × EP × Eff / Hull
(T5.10, B2, p63)

But Potential is modified by Effect, so your TL 12 Experimental drive F in a 200 ton hull will have a potential of 2 X 600 x 0.5 / 200 = 3
You could presumably install a J Drive and get Jump-4.5 but it would be 100 tons.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But Potential is modified by Effect, so your TL 12 Experimental drive F in a 200 ton hull will have a potential of 2 X 600 x 0.5 / 200 = 3

Efficiency modifies potential, if you are using the potential table.

Yes, if you are using the EP calculated performance, efficiency modifies EP so you can use a bigger drive to achieve better potential.

You could presumably install a J Drive and get Jump-4.5 but it would be 100 tons.

So? Who said an experimental hi-jump drive would be small and cheap?

Use a drop tank to make it work...

 

[spank]

Efficiency modifies potential, if you are using the potential table.

Yes, if you are using the EP calculated performance, efficiency modifies EP so you can use a bigger drive to achieve better potential.

Having two different way to calculate drive potential is not a great solution, it puts you right back at the LLB2 vs LBB5 situation.
Much better to a have a single way to calculate drive potential. If you are going to use the formula then the table 12 becomes superfluous. You are going to have look at a table to know the EP for the calculation, and another different table, in a different spot, to know the hull rating. better to have a table that has the calculation built in.

So? Who said an experimental hi-jump drive would be small and cheap?

Use a drop tank to make it work...

Nobody said it would be small, or cheap.
What I did say was a J-6 drive, even an experimental one, is not possible at TL-12.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Having two different way to calculate drive potential is not a great solution, it puts you right back at the LLB2 vs LBB5 situation.

Not great, but almost the same result.

The drive potential table is subset of the results from the EP formula, so not as bad as LBB2 vs LBB5. It's just Stages that messes this up.

Nobody said it would be small, or cheap.
What I did say was a J-6 drive, even an experimental one, is not possible at TL-12.

It's possible, ok its as big as the ship, but its theoretically possible...

Exp J-5 at TL-11 is barely practically possible with a drop tank:

 

[spank]

Not great, but almost the same result.

The drive potential table is subset of the results from the EP formula, so not as bad as LBB2 vs LBB5. It's just Stages that messes this up.



It's possible, ok its as big as the ship, but its theoretically possible...

Exp J-5 at TL-11 is barely practically possible with a drop tank:
View attachment 4421

For a TL 12 Experimental jump drive "Z", which is going to be the most efficient size wise, you are going to need a 400 ton hull.
(2400/400) x2 x 0.5=6 That drive by itself is going to be 375 tons. Add in a powerplant of sufficient size and you are over the hull size.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For a TL 12 Experimental jump drive "Z", which is going to be the most efficient size wise, you are going to need a 400 ton hull.
(2400/400) x2 x 0.5=6 That drive by itself is going to be 375 tons. Add in a powerplant of sufficient size and you are over the hull size.

T5 isn't petty about that, it's just called overtonnage...

Here is a TL-12 J-6 ship:

TL-12  F-BU26                        Ergo 2   Comfort 1    Demand 0        Agility -3
       Freighter                     Total:       -  49       2 035        Stability -2
SYSTEM                                    #        DTON        COST     
                                                                        
Hull                                                200                 
Config: Unstreamlined                                             7     
Structure: Plate Kinetic       AV=6 ( 60 vs Blast, 1800 vs Heat/Beam, 60 vs Pres, 600 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Coating: Reflec                AV= 0 ( 1200 vs Heat/Beam  )     
Armour Std Anti-Rad                       1                          AV=6 ( 60 vs Blast, 600 vs H/B, 600 vs Rad, 0 vs EMP )     
Landing Skids Tarmac                                                     
Lifters Installed                                                 1     
                                                                        
Drop Tanks (95% fuel)                     0                                -48,9  Hull
Total Drive Capacity                    200                                -48,9  Over/undertonnage: Agility -2
                                                                        
Jump Field: Jump Plate                                            0        Flash 8
Exp J Drive M  J-6, 600 EP                1         195       1 950     
Mod M Drive B  2 G, 220 EP                1           2           4     
Ear P Plant G  P 6, 630 EP                1          22          44     
                                                                        
Fuel, Power  2 weeks                                  7                 
                                                                        
Console, Control Gen C+S=11               3           6           0        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Gen C+S=11               4           8           0        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer m/4/bis                          1           4          22     
                                                                        
Sensors                                                                 
Mod AR Surf Commu-10 +12A+7 PA(           1                       2       
Mod AR Surf Radar-11 +13A+7 PA(           1                       2        ACS S=6
Mod AR Surf Scope-11 +13A-- P(P           1                       2        ACS S=4
                                                                        
Crew:                                     1                             
Stateroom for 4                           1           2           0     
Freshers Shared                           1           1           1     
Common Areas                              2           2                 
Life Support:                                                           
Med Console                               1           1           1     
Life Support, Standard 200%               1           1           1        240 person-days
                                                                        
Standard Air Lock                         2                             
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                                                        
                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels     
Crew                                 4                7          13     
Bridge Crew                          2    0                             
    Pilot                                 1           1           1     
    Astrogator                            1           1           0     
    Sensor Ops                            0           0           3     
Engineer                             2    0                             
    Engineer                              1           4           8     
    Maintenance                           1                             
Service Crew                         0    0                             
    Operations                            0           0           1     
Gunner                               0    0                             
    Gunner                                0           1           0

200 Dt hull with 49 Dt overtonnage...

 

[spank]

You forgot the pump for the drop tanks.....

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You forgot the pump for the drop tanks.....

The pump can be in the drop tank.

 

[spank]

The pump can be in the drop tank.

It's a ships fitting, Not a droptank fitting.
Also you need more consoles.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It's a ships fitting, Not a droptank fitting.

Drop tanks are just a hull that you drop, it can contain anything you want.

Also you need more consoles.

7 Consoles for 13 panels for Ergonomics 2, what's the problem?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Drop tanks are just a hull that you drop, it can contain anything you want.

Not sure if serious.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not sure if serious.

T5 has no specific drop tanks, it's just a regular hull that you drop before jump.

You can armour them and put a hardpoint on them, if you wish.

T5 isn't CT...

 

[spank]

Drop tanks are just a hull that you drop, it can contain anything you want.


7 Consoles for 13 panels for Ergonomics 2, what's the problem?

You need 9 consoles for the drives alone.

Edit,
Sorry control panels.....

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You need 9 consoles for the drives alone.

Edit,
Sorry control panels.....

One per 35 Dt drive, so 1 for the MD, 1 for the PP, and 195/35=6 for the JD for a total of 8?

 

[spank]

One per 35 Dt drive, so 1 for the MD, 1 for the PP, and 195/35=6 for the JD for a total of 8?

Yes 8 control panels.
Plus you need 8 engineers.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes 8 control panels.
Plus you need 8 engineers.

T5 crew sizing does not work like that.

Control panels are the need for C&C.
Consoles (work stations) control panels, the desired Ergonomics score determines how many consoles are needed.
Crew mans consoles, you can select how many shifts of crew you want.

Here we have 13 panels.
With a desired Ergonomics score of 2, we need 7 consoles.
With a desired manning level of "Minimal" we need 4 crew.

To add insult to injury, consoles come in different types with different capabilities and prices.

Console, Control Gen C+S=11               3           6           0        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Console, Operati Gen C+S=11               4           8           0        Brain: INT=4, EDU=2
Computer m/4/bis                          1           4          22     


                                       Crew    Consoles      Panels    
Crew                                 4                7          13    
Bridge Crew                          2    0                            
    Pilot                                 1           1           1    
    Astrogator                            1           1           0    
    Sensor Ops                            0           0           3    
Engineer                             2    0                            
    Engineer                              1           4           8    
    Maintenance                           1                            
Service Crew                         0    0                            
    Operations                            0           0           1    
Gunner                               0    0                            
    Gunner                                0           1           0

To perform actions (resolve tasks):
the crew can use consoles,
the computer(s) can use consoles,
the consoles can do it themselves if they are equipped with a brain.

With the defaulted "Minimal" crew we get a Pilot, a Navigator, and two Engineering staff. That might be a bit ungenerous for an experimental craft, but they only really have to control and record the jump itself and space is tight.


T5 isn't CT...

 

[whulorigan]

T5 crew sizing does not work like that.

Control panels are the need for C&C.
Consoles (work stations) control panels, the desired Ergonomics score determines how many consoles are needed.
Crew mans consoles, you can select how many shifts of crew you want.

Here we have 13 panels.
With a desired Ergonomics score of 2, we need 7 consoles.
With a desired manning level of "Minimal" we need 4 crew.

To add insult to injury, consoles come in different types with different capabilities and prices.




To perform actions (resolve tasks):
the crew can use consoles,
the computer(s) can use consoles,
the consoles can do it themselves if they are equipped with a brain.

With the defaulted "Minimal" crew we get a Pilot, a Navigator, and two Engineering staff. That might be a bit ungenerous for an experimental craft, but they only really have to control and record the jump itself and space is tight.


T5 isn't CT...

@spank:
The thing to remember is that under T5, not only is there a Central Computer (the Model 4/bis) that can independently process tasks, but each of the Consoles themselves is individually computerized and can enable and process tasks and automate them by a crew member (or the computer) initiating them. The Computer itself can effectively fill a number of crew positions (i.e. can "occupy" a number of consoles) up to its rating number (or rating +1 for bis). The consoles themselves can likewise process tasks, they just cannot take initiative like crew (or the computer if it is assigned to a console and/or a task).

 

[spank]

T5 crew sizing does not work like that.

Control panels are the need for C&C.
Consoles (work stations) control panels, the desired Ergonomics score determines how many consoles are needed.
Crew mans consoles, you can select how many shifts of crew you want.

Here we have 13 panels.
With a desired Ergonomics score of 2, we need 7 consoles.
With a desired manning level of "Minimal" we need 4 crew.

To add insult to injury, consoles come in different types with different capabilities and prices.




To perform actions (resolve tasks):
the crew can use consoles,
the computer(s) can use consoles,
the consoles can do it themselves if they are equipped with a brain.

With the defaulted "Minimal" crew we get a Pilot, a Navigator, and two Engineering staff. That might be a bit ungenerous for an experimental craft, but they only really have to control and record the jump itself and space is tight.


T5 isn't CT...

T5 crew sizing does not work like that.

Control panels are the need for C&C.
Consoles (work stations) control panels, the desired Ergonomics score determines how many consoles are needed.
Crew mans consoles, you can select how many shifts of crew you want.

Here we have 13 panels.
With a desired Ergonomics score of 2, we need 7 consoles.
With a desired manning level of "Minimal" we need 4 crew.

To add insult to injury, consoles come in different types with different capabilities and prices.




To perform actions (resolve tasks):
the crew can use consoles,
the computer(s) can use consoles,
the consoles can do it themselves if they are equipped with a brain.

With the defaulted "Minimal" crew we get a Pilot, a Navigator, and two Engineering staff. That might be a bit ungenerous for an experimental craft, but they only really have to control and record the jump itself and space is tight.


T5 isn't CT...

Except T5 does require engineers,
"Crew are assigned to functions or mechanisms. A Steward
is assigned to Passenger Services; an Astrogator is assigned
to Astrogation. Particularly in the Drive Suite, Engi-
neers are assigned one per 35 tons of Drive mechanism: if
the total drives is less than 35 tons, one Engineer is probably
sufficient; if the total is 45 tons, the ship more likely needs
two Engineers."

Also you need to double your fuel, because of the overtonnage.