Naval Infantry

[aramis]

The practical differences in style between a greatsword and a greatsword length stick in terms of use are that the stick can be used more ways than the broadsword. They weigh similarly, and greatsword techniques can be used with the stick nicely.

CT over-specialized the combat skills.

 

[far-trader]

CT over-specialized the combat skills.

Interesting, I was thinking they over-generalized them

Blade Combat including all those edged weapons from dagger through pole-arms and Gun Combat including all those ranged weapons from body pistol to laser rifle.

Of course that only applies to the zero-level skill ability with them. I totally get and agree with the over-specialization of actually applying skill levels. CT did fix that a bit in Books 4 and 5 (and 7?) grouping some alike weapons into a single skill of broader scope. I'm sure everyone has house-ruled that into more expanded usage at some point and in some way

 

[rancke]

If it's being wielded one-handed, it's basically a cudgel - which oddly enough is one of the (separate) Blade Combat skills you can select. Though, one could argue wielding a properly weighted and designed stick using one of the other Blade Combat skills, say as a non-lethal practice weapon.

There's a picture of a cudgel in TB and a police baton or jo stick would be weighted quite differently.

If it's a two-handed staff, it can either be used in the traditional "Robin-hood" quarterstaff-fighting style, or it could be used in something more akin to a two-handed sword style - thus Broadsword skill.

In other words, you can either use it with quarterstaff skill as a quarterstaff or with broadsword skill as a practice broadsword. That doesn't make the Broadsword skill into a Quarterstaff skill. A quarterstaff is properly wielded with one hand grasping it in the middle. I strongly suggest you do not try that with a broadsword. Sure, you could use it as a practice broadsword, but it's another of those stretched rationalizations of Traveller oddities that I have no patience with. You could, but if you actually had quarterstaff training you wouldn't.


Hans

 

[aramis]

There's a picture of a cudgel in TB and a police baton or jo stick would be weighted quite differently.


In other words, you can either use it with quarterstaff skill as a quarterstaff or with broadsword skill as a practice broadsword. That doesn't make the Broadsword skill into a Quarterstaff skill. A quarterstaff is properly wielded with one hand grasping it in the middle. I strongly suggest you do not try that with a broadsword. Sure, you could use it as a practice broadsword, but it's another of those stretched rationalizations of Traveller oddities that I have no patience with. You could, but if you actually had quarterstaff training you wouldn't.


Hans

if you have broadsword skill (properly bastard sword, or hand-and-a-half sword or greatsword skill, but traveller's been misnaming the 1.3-1.7m long blade for 35 years now), odds are good you've used a 1.5-2m long stick for at least some of your training, and should take no penalty to attacks with the stick; in fact, your entire skill level should apply.

Likewise, skill with revolvers and skill with autopistols actually crosses over quite well for shooting them - the difference is mostly in the maintenance and reloading end of things; the same techniques for shooting apply to almost all pistols of the L-shaped variety. (Not all historical pistols have been of the L shape. A few are linear, tho those are one-shot wonders. A few are T-shaped - the crossbar being the grip.) For certain larger ones, some recoil management techniques are needed.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I've trained in broadsword (Fiore), or just general sword skill. It's truly a martial art in the strongest sense of the word. Knights of the middle ages were like samurai in their swordsmanship, and then some. It's a topic that's actively being researched now, and there's a whole discovery of how the warrior class of medieval Europe were able to put a halt to things like Islamic incursions, or being able to thwart the Mongols. Truly incredible stuff.

But, back to Naval Infantry. One of my pet bugaboos with Traveller since the begining was the "blade" combat skill given to either marines or navy personnel. And the picture rendered in the big black book with the blue jacket cover was that of a medieval falchion, something like a precursor to the cutlass, only shorter.

In a milieu that is pulsating with things like LASER weaponry, high powered percussion weapons, high energy weapons, gauss rifles, I just had a hard time grokking why "blade cmbt" with a falchon would be taught or even considered. It seemed like "bayonet" or something similar would be the skill of the day. And I would think that any such skill would probably not be taught to your typical crewman... or maybe a skill of zero; i.e. teach the rudimentary basics with rubber knives, practice for a day, then move onto the next lesson in cleaning your rifle or something.

The whole blade combat in char-gen just seemed weird.

 

[rancke]

if you have broadsword skill (properly bastard sword, or hand-and-a-half sword or greatsword skill, but traveller's been misnaming the 1.3-1.7m long blade for 35 years now), odds are good you've used a 1.5-2m long stick for at least some of your training, and should take no penalty to attacks with the stick; in fact, your entire skill level should apply.

I'm fine with Broadsword skill allowing you to use a quarterstaff as a broadsword. I seriously doubt it enables you to use it as a quarterstaff, not even at level 0. But as I said above, my knowledge is entirely vicarious.

Likewise, skill with revolvers and skill with autopistols actually crosses over quite well for shooting them - the difference is mostly in the maintenance and reloading end of things; the same techniques for shooting apply to almost all pistols of the L-shaped variety. (Not all historical pistols have been of the L shape. A few are linear, tho those are one-shot wonders. A few are T-shaped - the crossbar being the grip.) For certain larger ones, some recoil management techniques are needed.

I'm fine with any one-handed gun giving defaults, or even the entire skill, to every other one-handed gun, and the same with longarms. Indeed, in Heltesagaerne, my own house rules, where a D20 is used for combat resolution and skills are typically 12 to 15 and can be higher for real experts, rifles default to handguns at 4/6 and vice versa. Unfamiliar weapons defaults to an extra 1/6 less until you've become familiar with it, so someone with handgun skill who pick up a rifle for the very first time would be at 3/6 of his handgun skill until he has used the rifle for a while, then 4/6 until he gains a point of skill with the rifle (And it's easier to gain skill in a weapon that resembles one you're already skilled with in some way -- how much easier depends on how close the resemblance).


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...In other words, you can either use it with quarterstaff skill as a quarterstaff or with broadsword skill as a practice broadsword. That doesn't make the Broadsword skill into a Quarterstaff skill. A quarterstaff is properly wielded with one hand grasping it in the middle. I strongly suggest you do not try that with a broadsword. Sure, you could use it as a practice broadsword, but it's another of those stretched rationalizations of Traveller oddities that I have no patience with. You could, but if you actually had quarterstaff training you wouldn't.

That's all well and good, but I've used it as a practice "broadsword" (SCA), so it's hardly a "stretched rationalization". Unless you pad it, use rataan, or wear armor (ideally all three), the thing can hurt people at least as effectively as a cudgel, and I think a bit more so. Given enough maneuver room and no freaky tournament rules to favor one or the other, I'm pretty sure I can give a quarterstaff user at least an equal fight. Unfortunately, the "block-bodyslam" technique's a bit risky for sports fighting, but it's plenty fair when the object is to stay alive.

Which, bringing us back to Naval Infantry, brings up issues regarding melee combat. Your basic military combat defenses come down to cloth (5), vacc suits (5), combat environment suits (6), combat armor (8/10/18), and battledress (10/18). For that level of armor, your granddaddy's bayonet's not going to do the job. Hand-axe, broadsword, battleaxe seem to be the weapons of choice - but carting around a two-handed sword or battleaxe while also carrying the load of the typical infantryman sounds burdensome, and I can't imagine trying to get full power out of a two-hander or battleaxe in the confines of a ship's corridor. Something similar by Book-1 combat, if I recall. As near as I can figure, hand-to-hand means you and a handaxe, and if someone in combat armor shows up, you do your best to knock him down and then shoot him before he gets up. And if someone in battledress shows up - well, ...

 

[rancke]

That's all well and good, but I've used it as a practice "broadsword" (SCA), so it's hardly a "stretched rationalization". Unless you pad it, use rataan, or wear armor (ideally all three), the thing can hurt people at least as effectively as a cudgel, and I think a bit more so. Given enough maneuver room and no freaky tournament rules to favor one or the other, I'm pretty sure I can give a quarterstaff user at least an equal fight.

Perhaps you can. I've seen it claimed that the quarterstaff is the most efficient close combat weapon of all, but I've wondered why people would run around with swords if that was the case. But the relative effectiveness of staffs and swords is not really the issue. The issue is whether or not the two skills are different. Even if a quarterstaff is not more efficient than a twohanded sword, it seems to me that the traditional quarterstaff grip must be the most efficient way to wield a six foot staff. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be the traditional way to wield it. Given that, the skill to use a quarterstaff is obviously quite different from the skill to use a two-handed sword.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

How many starmen would be armed with staffs?

 

[rancke]

How many starmen would be armed with staffs?

More than would be armed with pikes and halberds. What's your point?


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

Heh, or Colt Dragoons.

Are you sure about that though?

As per my other post I have a beef with the char-gen table for marines stating that everyone gets an automatic blade-combat skill, and that said blade is a medieval falchion, and not a saber or something more "navy-like".

If you were leading a platoon of naval infantry through the streets, would you do so with saber drawn?

 

[far-trader]

...

As per my other post I have a beef with the char-gen table for marines stating that everyone gets an automatic blade-combat skill...

Tradition. Esprit de corps. Physical training.

Three quick oft used reasons for the Marine Cutlass.

 

[Jame]

Weapon access for civilians depends a lot on the law level of the culture. Here in the UK very few civilians have any real knowledge of how to fire handguns, shotguns and rifles.

Ask them to reload, clear a jam or strip a weapon down and that's way beyond what they've seen in action films.

Yes, and that's what level 1 (one, o n e) is for. Level 0 is "aim, shoot, how do I reload again?"

EDIT: Also, this is what I would do for Player Characters, because they're quote special unquote.

 

[Carlobrand]

How many starmen would be armed with staffs?

Historically, the staff was the weapon of choice for the rural walker when the powers-that-be wouldn't let you have weapons - at least in Europe, where there's a lot of wood - 'cause you could say it was your walking stick. It wasn't too much of a threat to an armored man, and it could be used to fend off or beat back hostile animals or robbers (who, often being as poor as you, didn't tend to have the same quality arms and armor of the powers-that-be), whereas if you had a bow, they'd think you were a poacher, and if you had a melee weapon, you'd best be of the right class or you're in trouble. If they took it away, no great loss - just go find another. (Assuming of course the local ecology has some sort of stick of sufficient length and strength to be pressed into service.) Also very useful for walking.

Pretty much the same might apply in Traveller - go to some high law world and it might be as good as it gets for your foray into the hinterlands.

And, if some mischance left you stranded in the hinterlands without adequate power or ammunition, then a staff or an improvised spear might be your best bet for survival. And a sling - also a very useful thing to learn if you're the wilderness-foray type.

If you're going to spend your every minute in the ship tweaking the engines or in urban alleys negotiating with thugs, you're probably never going to need a staff - and you might draw unwanted attention with one in some places. If on the other hand you go adventuring into the wilds, you just might find yourself in a situation where one might be useful.

 

[far-trader]

And a little more down the side-topic of blades and sticks...

They never jam.

They have no (significant) signature. No big flash, no big bang, no big energy spike.

 

[Cryton]

I had always ruled that the reason Navy and Marines are taught the use of bladed weapons, was that they don't punch holes in the hull or damage vital equipment on a missed shot.

Also, they can open up a vac suit well beyond the ability of a slap patch suit repair kit.

 

[aramis]

Perhaps you can. I've seen it claimed that the quarterstaff is the most efficient close combat weapon of all, but I've wondered why people would run around with swords if that was the case. But the relative effectiveness of staffs and swords is not really the issue. The issue is whether or not the two skills are different. Even if a quarterstaff is not more efficient than a twohanded sword, it seems to me that the traditional quarterstaff grip must be the most efficient way to wield a six foot staff. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be the traditional way to wield it. Given that, the skill to use a quarterstaff is obviously quite different from the skill to use a two-handed sword.


Hans

Hans, I had someone try to quarterstaff me when I had a sword. He wound up with two jo-staves and a broken wrist.

You've been sorely misinformed.

The only real advantages of a quarterstaff are ease of manufacture, general legality, and its ability to be claimed as an aid to mobility. Plus, one can readily make one even when illegal by simply detaching the head of a broom, mop, or window-squeegee.

They're everywhere readily available... not great weapons, but always available. Thus, the ideal resistance weapon.

Oh, and sharpen one end, and it's a functional spear.

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, and that's what level 1 (one, o n e) is for. Level 0 is "aim, shoot, how do I reload again?"

EDIT: Also, this is what I would do for Player Characters, because they're quote special unquote.

Nope, level 0 is the skill required to avoid the penalties to hit, reload, clear jams etc.

Level 1 is actually pretty well trained - remember you are dealing with a +1DM on a 2d6 probability spread so a bonus of 1 has a big effect.

 

[rancke]

Hans, I had someone try to quarterstaff me when I had a sword. He wound up with two jo-staves and a broken wrist.

You've been sorely misinformed.

Perhaps I have, but I hardly think one instance is enough to falsify the claim, since your example says nothing about how expert your opponent was and shows that his staff was vulerable to breaking, which I understand a proper quarterstaff is not.

This article contains some of the claims I refer to, both general claims and anecdotal evidence of a quarterstaff wielder defeating three swordsmen.

More to the point, the article mentions how the quarterstaff is held and used, and it does not seem to resemble any other close combat weapn I've heard of. So however effective it is, it's definitely a separate and distinct skill.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

Historically, the staff was the weapon of choice for the rural walker when the powers-that-be wouldn't let you have weapons - at least in Europe, where there's a lot of wood - 'cause you could say it was your walking stick. It wasn't too much of a threat to an armored man, and it could be used to fend off or beat back hostile animals or robbers (who, often being as poor as you, didn't tend to have the same quality arms and armor of the powers-that-be), whereas if you had a bow, they'd think you were a poacher, and if you had a melee weapon, you'd best be of the right class or you're in trouble. If they took it away, no great loss - just go find another. (Assuming of course the local ecology has some sort of stick of sufficient length and strength to be pressed into service.) Also very useful for walking.

Pretty much the same might apply in Traveller - go to some high law world and it might be as good as it gets for your foray into the hinterlands.

And, if some mischance left you stranded in the hinterlands without adequate power or ammunition, then a staff or an improvised spear might be your best bet for survival. And a sling - also a very useful thing to learn if you're the wilderness-foray type.

If you're going to spend your every minute in the ship tweaking the engines or in urban alleys negotiating with thugs, you're probably never going to need a staff - and you might draw unwanted attention with one in some places. If on the other hand you go adventuring into the wilds, you just might find yourself in a situation where one might be useful.

Carlo, sure, but I was being facetious, because we were getting off the topic of naval infantry.

First Officer; "Captain, there's an angry mob outside the starport gates, chanting anti-Imperial slogans about the grain we're guarding!"
Captain; "Right. Muster the watch, and tell Simpkins to keep his damn quarter-staff in his cabin!"