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Naval Infantry

:)

And a little more down the side-topic of blades and sticks...

They never jam.

They have no (significant) signature. No big flash, no big bang, no big energy spike.

Sooo, you'd send in a company of battledressed marines armed into a hot zone armed ... only with quarter-staffs? :oo:
 
Perhaps I have, but I hardly think one instance is enough to falsify the claim, since your example says nothing about how expert your opponent was and shows that his staff was vulerable to breaking, which I understand a proper quarterstaff is not.

This article contains some of the claims I refer to, both general claims and anecdotal evidence of a quarterstaff wielder defeating three swordsmen.

More to the point, the article mentions how the quarterstaff is held and used, and it does not seem to resemble any other close combat weapn I've heard of. So however effective it is, it's definitely a separate and distinct skill.


Hans
As per my previous post, imagine, a fire-team of say 12 tech-level 15 Battledressed Marines with the sunburst emblem proudly displayed. Only instead of high energy weapons, they're bearing quarter-staffs.

You people are killing me :mad:
 
As per my previous post, imagine, a fire-team of say 12 tech-level 15 Battledressed Marines with the sunburst emblem proudly displayed. Only instead of high energy weapons, they're bearing quarter-staffs.

I can't think of any mission that would require that particular combination. Any mission that required battledress would either require more powerful weapons or make the weapons moot. Any mission that required quarterstaffs (assuming for purposes of argument that the marines was trained in the use thereof -- cutlasses would be more likely) would require less drastic armor.

You people are killing me :mad:

It's called thread drift or running out along a tangent. Here on CotI we're not anal about sticking to the topic, as long as it stays Traveller-relevant and engaging. If you trace the discussion back you'll discover how it relates to the original subject. Basically I am trying to refute an argument made in connection with naval character generation.


Hans
 
Thanks Hans. Again, I was attempting to get the thread back on course via more facetiousness.

You'll note that I joined in May of 2001 :)
 
When last we saw the original discussion (back around page 5) we (or at least I) had reached the conclusion that the navies of the Classic Era might well have Naval Infantry of their own, although they would be hampered by the fact that a much larger proportion of a ship's crew would be needed to run the ship, leaving fewer warm bodies available for NI missions. Is there much more to say?


Hans
 
...Captain; "Right. Muster the watch, and tell Simpkins to keep his damn quarter-staff in his cabin!"

:rofl:Oooh, that was a good one!

Brings up an interesting NI point. Traveller deals mostly with lethal weapons. NI may well face those "angry mob at the gates" moments, and firing FGMPs into unarmed crowds is generally considered a diplomatic no-no. What do we have in the way of crowd-control weapons that we can equip them with that won't slaughter unarmed civilians by the dozen?
 
Hans, most historical greatsword techniques include grabbing the blade, just so you know... the dissimilarity isn't as great as you imagine. THe blade typically isn't sharp the whole way, often being unsharp out past the midpoint; often only 1/3 of the overall length is sharpened (counts handle). It's suboptimal*, but it will work to use it in the same manner as central-grip staff techniques. Smaller blades won't work that way.

*It's suboptimal only because you're likely to catch quillons on your leg or sleeves.
 
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Hans, most historical greatsword techniques include grabbing the blade, just so you know... the dissimilarity isn't as great as you imagine. THe blade typically isn't sharp the whole way, often being unsharp out past the midpoint; often only 1/3 of the overall length is sharpened (counts handle). It's suboptimal*, but it will work to use it in the same manner as central-grip staff techniques. Smaller blades won't work that way.
Wil, historical quarterstaff techniques appear to include treating both ends of the staff as identical. Which, of course, they are. And which greatswords most certainly are not.


Hans
 
That's the problem with trying to correct for thread drift with clever rhetorical replies ;) ...some wit (or half) is going to take the bait and answer it :)

Sooo, you'd send in a company of battledressed marines armed into a hot zone armed ... only with quarter-staffs? :oo:

Not quarter-staffs no, but a cutlass as a fallback sure. As Hans notes, if it is a hot zone requiring Battle Dress they'd be going in heavy and hard.

Still, that said, can you imagine the moral problem the opponent might have at seeing a full company of BD troops charging with cutlasses. Don't forget the strength bonuses inherent in the BD and the high tech steel and edge of the Marine cutlass. It would be a very bloody mess for anything less than a like armoured force. I daresay after seeing the front line sliced to bits, literally, and the Marines still coming on fresh and strong with no reciprocal casualties (presuming ineffective small arms on the opposition's part) the rest of the force will be in full rout.
 
Brings up an interesting NI point. Traveller deals mostly with lethal weapons. NI may well face those "angry mob at the gates" moments, and firing FGMPs into unarmed crowds is generally considered a diplomatic no-no. What do we have in the way of crowd-control weapons that we can equip them with that won't slaughter unarmed civilians by the dozen?

Batons (aka clubs) and Tranq rounds and gas (MT? or some CT JTAS article first appearance?) leap to mind.
 
How many starmen would be armed with staffs? :mad:

Think about a walking stick or cane. Not too long ago all fashionable gentlemen carried a cane.

Right now, in the proper stats, I can buy an extendable batton (Asp is the brand name). Given some better materials it should be possible to make a fairly short cylinder that extends into a bo or quarter staff.

In Babylon 5, the Ranger Marcus carried something like that.

And if it's made out of the right materials it would be safe from a sword blow, unless you have light sabers in your campaign.
 
Batons (aka clubs) and Tranq rounds and gas (MT? or some CT JTAS article first appearance?) leap to mind.

I'd agree with the various tranq round and gas, but any hand weapon in the hands of somebody in powered armor can be lethal. And to the victim it doesn't matter if he was killed by an FGMP or torn in half by a high tech staff or blade.
 
Wil, historical quarterstaff techniques appear to include treating both ends of the staff as identical. Which, of course, they are. And which greatswords most certainly are not.


Hans

Actual quarterstaff isn't always identical ends - the important aspect in the manuals (period and non) is that the quarterstaff techniques involve striking with ends from a central grip. A technique that is in several period bastard sword and greatsword manuals, as well. (The non-identical ends is an issue of wear and source-wood. Quarterstaff, historically, was field-crafted.)

Quarterstaff skill can readily be used with spears; a slight bit more thought required for polearms other than spears (Polemaces are just off-center for quarterstaff; poleaxes require slightly more care not to catch the head on self). Greatswords are used in a variety of ways, and there is little loss to a staff-technique from hitting with quillons, hilt or flat - there is much to be gained by edge-hit from the blade.

The overall mass and lengths are comparable, and the staff techniques can be done with a typical historical blade of that size.

A blade is a force concentration tool - no near-modern army (including marine armies) has ever had a successful campaign without bladed weapons, if only for their utility uses. A greatsword can be used quite effectively to chop trees. An axe is better - more mass-moment, more wood removed per strike.
A bayonet is useful for cooking, carving, and (in a pinch) digging, as well as being a way to have a spear without carrying a spear.
A pick is better against armored targets than a sword - but a sword can do better than a staff in most cases.

Marines with greatswords is a bit farfetched - but a "modern cutlass" of the mamluke-hilted shamsheer type carried by USMC was a practical blade - enough mass for practical combat, curved makes it easier to wield in the confines of a ship, and the gentle curve means thrusting techniques DO work nicely. (I've fenced using and against a rebated shamsheer - it's actually harder to defend against its thrusts than against a rapier!)

Likewise, staff aboard ship is going to be short staff for the same reasons as cutlasses instead of greatswords...
... space and damage to equipment.

The only reasons to prefer melee weapons are that of preserving the ship. Firearms will result in damage to consoles, displays, etc. Even a hit will usually overpenetrate and thus go through the target into systemry.

Melee weapons suffer this far less... having fenced in close quarters (rapiers in hallway), no significant damage to the breakables at the ends occured - even a single BB gun miss would have damaged them.

Which brings back to discussion of roles.

The role of Naval infantry is dismounted/ashore - as is that of marines - but ship's troops may include standing anti-boarding teams, who, for the very same reasons as the naval infantry, will be drawn from the same pools of persons.

Repelling boarders, you want shotguns, snub pistols, and melee weapons. You want melee weapons easily wielded in ship's corridors, both for practice and practical application. You want the snub and shotgun because they will not overpenetrate the target, and because in areas without instrumentation, they are highly effective, misses don't go through the walls, and they still can injure effectively against unarmored targets.

The period greatsword techniques included strikes to unarmored locations, as well - so the traveller "broadsword" (A bastard sword or smallish greatsword) is likely to be seen as a melee weapon for battledress troops - because it's one of the few massive enough to break through the weak spots, and agile enough to hit them. (The techniques for which parallel center-and-end grip staff trip techniques for tripping; grip on the blade just below the false quillons, and lever with hand on the hilt to bring the tip into the back of the knee...)

Using advanced metallurgy, I can see greatswords used to take out BD and CA troops, both in boarding actions and ashore. (I can see staff, or spear, or broomhandle being used for the exact same strikes, but with less permanent results.... the strike mode is the same for all 4 weapons, including how the levering is done.) So I can see it being an available training for NI and Marines, and the weapon being elective carry. (3I marines don't - cutlass tradition leads to standardization - but that 8+ roll is better explained by "you've got the stupid thing on your hip 90% of the time.")
 
I have a total of maybe 20 hours training with the military riot baton (36 inch wood with thumb wrap thong) and have used it once. During my time as an MP I used the mag light never in training--unless you count the night stick training, as I never used the stick after initial training for training or real life--and used the mag light maybe 30 times in fights.

I offer that as background for my opinion. The 36 inch stave type weapon is only good when used in tight formation against fists and feet. One on one a 3-D cell mag light is much better, quicker, hits harder, and allows quicker blocks. Just as important, it keeps one hand free to wrestle, cuff, or keep your pistol in its holster.

My ideal 3I boarding impact weapon is a tough weighted small baton with light and a multi sensor suite and some sort of short range tranq/tazer option. For sure alarms for rads/air/chemical issues, and maybe short range radar or sonar for false compartments/bottoms.
 
And technically not considered an actual weapon.

Dave Chase

Actually, under most modern law as I understand it, as soon as it is used as a weapon it is considered an actual weapon. Similar to using a finger in a pocket in a holdup is considered the same as using an actual gun. The intent defines the classification. However, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one in Traveller ;)

So while you won't get stopped on a Law Level 9 world for carrying a big flashlight, if you use it in a fight you may be charged with a weapons violation.
 
So, instead of quarter-staffs, our Imperial Battledressed marines are wearing Memebers' Only Jackets with fingers in the pockets to mimic guns? :oo:
 
So, instead of quarter-staffs, our Imperial Battledressed marines are wearing Memebers' Only Jackets with fingers in the pockets to mimic guns? :oo:

I don't know about you but I'd still be just as concerned, maybe even more so ;)

( They are STILL Imperial Marines in BATTLEDRESS!! :eek: You know you're in deep groat droppings if THEY are looking at you with menace in their visor, which is the only expression it comes in ;) )
 
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