I don't know, but for some reason imagining a Battledressed marine sporting an XXXXL nylon jacket over his armor is just somehow funny to me. Call me crazy 
Naval Infantry
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
KIDS! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!! Seriously, I know of one fellow who snapped his favorite special-crafted and rather expensive Medieval reproduction piece trying that trick. Lucky he didn't hurt himself. And, no, it wasn't one of those ridiculous wall-hangers with the uselessly narrow tang under the grip.
I imagine if it's all you have, and you absolutely gotta chop wood to survive, then you might risk your two-hander - but I also imagine the skilled swordsman would know the limits of his tools and have caution not to throw too much into the swing. There's a reason folks use axes for that work.
Seriously, I know of one fellow who snapped his favorite special-crafted and rather expensive Medieval reproduction piece trying that trick. Lucky he didn't hurt himself. And, no, it wasn't one of those ridiculous wall-hangers with the uselessly narrow tang under the grip.
I imagine if it's all you have, and you absolutely gotta chop wood to survive, then you might risk your two-hander - but I also imagine the skilled swordsman would know the limits of his tools and have caution not to throw too much into the swing. There's a reason folks use axes for that work.
The big difference is that an axe can be swung straight at a trunk. Any swordblade has to be at a near vertical angle.
As for the reproductions, most of them are still wall-hangers - not properly tempered for weapon use. If it claims to be a reproduction, it's most likely not a useful sword.
Still - in a community with 20 fencers, we've had 2-3 blades break just from fencing use each year. Blades break. It happens. I've had an axe break chopping a tree.
In this case, the reproduction was by an SCA swordsmith attempting to reproduce the techniques of the era. While he probably wasn't of the caliber of the best of that era, it was still a real sword. As you point out, even axes break. I'd hate to have some intrepid soul take your comment as license to try their mail-order beauty on the tree in the back yard.
And in the NI front:
So here I am on the HIMS Badluck, fuel tanks shattered, emergency lighting on, grav field's down, the rest of the fleet driven back, a Solomani ship maneuvering to board in hope of salvaging my ship for their cause, and my Captain intent on denying them the prize. (Dang suicidal fool! Like it's actually going to make a difference ...) I'm sitting here thinking of the likely defenses of a boarder - combat armor, most likely. Now I'm trying to figure out how we're going to defeat that defense with the shotguns, snub pistols and cutlasses the Captain ordered out in order to keep his equipment from taking further damage. And then I recall a scene from an ancient Terran movie, "Aliens," a bunch of soldiers trying to fight monsters with flamers after THEIR commander ordered THEIR weapons collected to protect the base's equipment.
And now I'm thinking: I'm just gonna take this snubbie, shove it under the Master-at-Arms's chin and threaten to pull the trigger if he doesn't break out the lasers and assault rocket launchers.
Shotguns and cutlasses aren't even much good against vacc suits, and I don't want to think about trying to use them if the gravity is off - whether by accident or intent. Snub's a sight better with a HEAP load, as is a handaxe - unless the other guy is in combat armor. Those weapons are ultimately best for the civilian trying to hold his ship against poorly armored hijackers. In a military engagement, I think it might be best to concentrate on winning the battle in front of you and dealing with the aftermath later. Or else, save your men a lot of pain and haul out the white flag.
If you're knowing you're going to be boarded, you have to guess two things - which point of entry, and how much force can they commit.
If the force commitment is low enough to stand a chance, and you guess correctly, you can pick your place of engagement so as to avoid being totaled out by the fight. If their answer is "Every airlock," odds are you don't have enough force left to fight them, even if every man aboard grabs every weapon left.
Now, against combat... some comparisons with firearms at close and short vs Combat/BattleDress Armors...
C/S
–6/–5 Dagger (you miss)
–10/–4 Cutlass (you might hit at short)
–12/–1 Broadsword
–4/–3 Autopistol or Revolver
–12/-4 Shotgun (no better than a cutlass)
Simply put, CT CA and BDA is nigh-immune to most weapons.
If the force commitment is low enough to stand a chance, and you guess correctly, you can pick your place of engagement so as to avoid being totaled out by the fight. If their answer is "Every airlock," odds are you don't have enough force left to fight them, even if every man aboard grabs every weapon left.
Now, against combat... some comparisons with firearms at close and short vs Combat/BattleDress Armors...
C/S
–6/–5 Dagger (you miss)
–10/–4 Cutlass (you might hit at short)
–12/–1 Broadsword
–4/–3 Autopistol or Revolver
–12/-4 Shotgun (no better than a cutlass)
Simply put, CT CA and BDA is nigh-immune to most weapons.
Ah, but MT says you can hit! It's just a matter of penetration
That's why it's my favorite rule set. It did away with CT's ... how do you call it ... "macro hit" number that included how you might effect an armored individual. Oh well. Truth be told I'm a little burnt out on the topic.
Naval Infantry deserves a write up. I'm going back to streaming Jay Leno for a while.
I agree, and will note that, in MT, any pen 2+ weapon can hurt BD on an exceptional hit.... because that represents hitting the back of the knees, insides of the elbows, etc.Ah, but MT says you can hit! It's just a matter of penetration
IMHO this would be more like -
Captain to remaining crew "Men we have choice we can attempt to fight them man for man and they will still gain the ship or we can scuttle the ship with the intent of taking as many of them as possible and possibly their ship also. What do you say?"
Crew response "Take out as many Soli suckers as possible!!!!!"
ALL crew not working on the scuttling charge is used for delaying tactics agains the boarders.
Just thoughts
Or they could surrender according to the prevailing conventions of war[*]. Perhaps in return for not standing off and destroying the ship with no risk and no survivors, the conventions call for the crew only destroying the classified files and refraining from resisting the boarding parties.
[*] AFAIK there is no information on the subject concerning the Solomani Confederation, but the Zhodani not only take prisoners, they exchange them before the war is over (There's an NPC in Tarsus or Beltstrike that was captured early in the 5FW and was exchanged in time to participate in a battle late in the war).
Boarding actions (i.e. involving combat) really don't make sense unless the defending ship is still able to fight, and since a ship without maneuver is at a huge disadvantage and since you can't board a ship unless you can match vectors, which requires that the target ship can't (or don't) maneuver, such actions would require quite unusual circumstances and be very rare.
Hans
Actually, all that's required is some reason to take it rather than destroy it, and it being unable to maneuver. But you generally won't board as long as it has weapons which can bear upon you and will fire.
The First is pretty simple - captured ships are a propaganda coup.
Can't maneuver - not uncommon using Bk2 or HG combat systems.
Can't fight back - kill the PP, and all they can do is resist boarding.
The reason for taking instead of destroying could be so that the day you are on the ship that's losing, the enemy will take it instead of destroying it.
If there is no risk that the defenders can destroy their ship, the cost of taking it by boarding may be worth the gain. But if the defenders are not fanatics, standing off and threatening to destroy the ship unless they surrender seems a pretty cost-effective way to go about it.
And if the defenders can destroy their ship, there's no reason to board it and a good reason not to try.
And when the ship is unable to maneuver and unable to fire its guns, its crew is down to the choice of suicide or surrender. Unless, of course, the crew have reasons why they won't surrender, in which case there's no choice at all. But then the attacker can just stand off and shoot up the ship until everyone aboard are dead.
Hans
Get thee to a .PDF store!
Hi Blue Ghost et all,
I would like to thank Martin J. Dougherty and Neil A. Frier for thier excellant work: "GRAND FLEET". In this Naval document I found nice crunchy information about Naval personnel being trained to act as an armed force intergrated into (and commanding) the Marine contingent.
Exerpt:
"Gunnery crew also undertake advanced small-arms training, beyond that required of all personnel."
etc, etc
"In rare circumstances, Gunnery personnel have gained entry to Imperial Marine Commando special forces units."
And again:
"THE NAVAL REGIMENT
The Naval Regiment has its origins in the Naval landing parties deployed by the Sylean Federation. It has always remained a secondary organization, thoroughly eclipsed by the Imperial Marine Corps."
Deliciously cruncy bits of fluff follow, I can not recommend this document enough to anyone wanting answers to Naval questions.
Okay, from the Imperial Army thread we revisited an old concept of a ship's crew serving as armed soldiers. This concept has always been around, but, officially at least, seems to have escaped Traveller. In the last few posts we started with some of the ship's crew being trained and given bare bones equipment for infantry duty.
I can picture Imperial Naval Infantry (INI) as being an unintentionally (quiet, nearly unrecognizeable) service or branch of the IN. Being given perhaps some bare bones armor, a helmet, ACRs or LASER weapons. Just my impression.
Who has thoughts on this?
*EDIT*
Imperial thoughts? Vargr, Zhodani, Solomani, Darrien thoughts? Anybody else? Droyne? Client states or local navies? Hivers?
Hi Blue Ghost et all,
I would like to thank Martin J. Dougherty and Neil A. Frier for thier excellant work: "GRAND FLEET". In this Naval document I found nice crunchy information about Naval personnel being trained to act as an armed force intergrated into (and commanding) the Marine contingent.
Exerpt:
"Gunnery crew also undertake advanced small-arms training, beyond that required of all personnel."
etc, etc
"In rare circumstances, Gunnery personnel have gained entry to Imperial Marine Commando special forces units."
And again:
"THE NAVAL REGIMENT
The Naval Regiment has its origins in the Naval landing parties deployed by the Sylean Federation. It has always remained a secondary organization, thoroughly eclipsed by the Imperial Marine Corps."
Deliciously cruncy bits of fluff follow, I can not recommend this document enough to anyone wanting answers to Naval questions.
Hans, the only difference between taking a prize which has surrendered and one which hasn't is how many of the crew shoot at you.
You NEVER board a hostile vessel without treating it as a boarding action, even after they surrender.
The difference in practice is that if they genuinely have surrendered, you can retrieve all the weapons, and get your prize crew aboard, with no further casualties. To either side.
You NEVER board a hostile vessel without treating it as a boarding action, even after they surrender.
The difference in practice is that if they genuinely have surrendered, you can retrieve all the weapons, and get your prize crew aboard, with no further casualties. To either side.
I'd think that would depend entirely on the prevailing conventions of war. Often the difference will be that no one shoots at you. That's what surrendering entails.
That's not what I've gathered from the Age of Sail books that I enjoy reading. Since they are fiction, I won't presume to call them proof of anything, but some of the authors (like Forester, Parkinson, and O'Brian) are acknowledged experts, so I will believe them until presented with proof that they're mistaken.
You board a ship that has surrendered prepared for treachery, of course. But as opposed to a boarding action, you don't soften up the deck with a whiff of grapeshot (or its SF equivalent) first.
The difference is that if they haven't genuinely surrendered, you turn it into a boarding action and afterwards you try the officers and sentence them to whatever punishment the conventions of war dictate.
Which is why most officers won't resist once they have surrendered and will order their men to refrain from resisting. Any member of the crew that does resist may even wind up being court-martialled by his own side eventually.
Hans
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Per both High Guard and Mt, boarding is only possible if:
1) the target can no longer maneuver;
2) the target no longer has functioning offensive weapons;
3) the target is separated from its fleet/defenders (in High Guard, the opforce gets initiative and moves from short to long range, effectively retreating; in MT, the nearest ship is at least a square away)
Both 1 and 2 occur when the target's fuel tanks are shattered, a sadly common event in the world of meson spinal fire. Often, a hit brings enough rolls that the crew takes heavy losses too. A critical to the maneuver drive could leave the ship stranded but able to fight - but that condition is not likely to last long.
As to whether 3 occurs - that depends on how the fight goes. The crippled ship's fleet could place it in reserve, in effect maneuvering the rest of the fleet to screen it, assuming they don't do that move-from-short-to-long thing in that turn. In the reserve, they might be able to send relief crews aboard and/or do quick repairs to jump it away to safety, or even to have it re-enter battle. Ships take longer to build than to repair - bringing a damaged ship home for repair is a high priority for any fleet.
However, circumstances might compel them to abandon a stricken vessel rather than risk further damage in a losing battle. In that case - again - ships take longer to build than to repair: you might profit in the long run from hauling the ship back for repair or refit, especially if it was only shattered fuel tanks that took it out of battle. Even pressing some half-fixed thing into service as a monitor adds to your fleet's firepower.
I see boarding as most likely after the battle, not while the battle lines are still shifting and some boarding crew could find itself stranded on the wrong side, facing a counter-boarding action. It's the mopping up phase of battle, when you offer terms to those who couldn't leave the field and deal with the hold-outs who won't accept terms.
Tricky phase: in my TU, scuttling a warship involves setting a timer on a nuke in the engine room and then taking to space in whatever boats still function - or vacc suits and a booster pack, if nothing else is available - and hoping that you can either get to your own fleet or the enemy will be nice enough to pick you up. Nothing quite says fini as well as a hundred-ton nuclear blast confined - briefly - to an armored shell. The enemy knows the ship is about to die when they see dozens of little jets flying desperately away from it; they wait for the blast, say a prayer for any trapped or wounded souls who could not escape, and then move in to rescue survivors. (Or not; I haven't heard anything to indicate the K'Kree are very good about taking prisoners, aside from their intelligence value.)
However, my crew might be too badly hurt, the key officers dead or out of place, and the enemy might have a shot at taking the ship whole if they can board quick and track down my scuttling charges with radiation sensors and densitometer scans before my decimated crew can organize enough to set them. Or, I might be slow in setting charges, trying to free the trapped and get the wounded to boats, giving the enemy time to get aboard and face me with the choice of killing my own crew or surrendering my ship intact. Or, I might be the die-hard type who lets the enemy board on that premise with the aim of giving him some hurt before I consign my ship to its fate.
The enemy weighs the cost of a hundred or so men against the potential for recovering tens of billions or hundreds of billions of credits of ship that can be repaired and made to serve their own needs. Historically, such choices don't favor the rank-and-file.
Wil, in the Age of Sail, you could not observe what went on below decks, so there is some resemblance. If the prize surrendered and you sent a prize party to seize control of it, the threat of the attacker's guns was really the only thing that prevented the defenders from picking up weapons again and annihilating the prize crew. Furthermore, there was no way to know if someone was sitting in the powder magazine ready to touch it off, destroying both his own ship and anyone nearby. Therefore, Age of Sail surrender practices are relevant.
Hans
I distinguished between boarding actions as opposed to (peaceful) boarding. Perhaps I'm misusing the term. If so, please tell me the correct term and I'll use that (I'm not trying to redefine anything in order to score cheap points). At the point you mention, the target can usually be threatened into surrendering (unless they are fanatics).
Hans
Here it is...
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller/sector-fleet.html
Same author different title, looks like the same content:
From the site-
Sector Fleet contains answers to some of the Big Questions concerning the Imperial Navy:
* What missions does the Navy actually carry out?
* Can a Sector Duke legally give orders to a naval Admiral?
* How does the Navy recruit and train its personnel?
* How many patrol ships are available in a typical subsector?
* When the Bridge is shot away, who takes command?
* What is the composition of a Sector Fleet?
* When is an order illegal? Should it be obeyed anyway?
* What jurisdiction does a corporate Route Protector have?
* How much does an Able Spacehand get paid?
* When a Commodore commands a single-ship force, is the Captain still in command?
And were can one find this tome of Imperial Naval wisdom?
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/rpgs/traveller/sector-fleet.html
Same author different title, looks like the same content:
From the site-
Sector Fleet contains answers to some of the Big Questions concerning the Imperial Navy:
* What missions does the Navy actually carry out?
* Can a Sector Duke legally give orders to a naval Admiral?
* How does the Navy recruit and train its personnel?
* How many patrol ships are available in a typical subsector?
* When the Bridge is shot away, who takes command?
* What is the composition of a Sector Fleet?
* When is an order illegal? Should it be obeyed anyway?
* What jurisdiction does a corporate Route Protector have?
* How much does an Able Spacehand get paid?
* When a Commodore commands a single-ship force, is the Captain still in command?
