I learned about T20 by reading Polyhedron magazine. I then had to look through several stores just to find the book and they had only one copy! I think better market penetration would do wonders on getting more people to play T20. Every Borders books store I've been to has a section on Role Playing games. They usually have D&D and D&D compatible products. There's Everquest another sword banging d20 RPG, and there's Star Wars. Then there is Lord of the Rings RPG, and Call of Cuthulu, all those silly vampire RPGs (Where you play a vampire) Then there is Engel (Where you play an Angel in a future that is somehow made to resemble D&D so that Angels and Demons can swing their swords without getting machine gunned to death.) I'm not much a fan of Sci Fi RPGs that are derived from movies or TV shows. I like Traveller for that reason, it is more intellectual and consistent than Star Trek, or Star Wars RPGs. I think a movie derived from Traveller would be a great idea so long as it stays true to the Traveller Universe. An all computer graphics movie might be a good way to start (Like Final Fantasy but with a better story, none of those spirit sucking ghouls.) The bottome line is that I'd like to see the T20 Traveller Handbook in more bookstores. So far I've only seen it in one store.
New blood or lack thereof.
- Thread starter jfwking
- Start date
Merchant Reaper
SOC-9
I have to agree that the visibility of T20 has been slightly better than nil. My gaming store only had one copy, sold it, and refused to restock it due to lack of interest. I had to get mine off of the internet. Then I say it sell on eBay for like 24.00 dollars +S/H. Figures.
And, I can't find out who bought the one T20 book my gaming store sold. Oh well, at least I have two players. Now if only I could play! At least i am having fun GMing. Watching the Traveller infection spread through the psyche of a new victim, or two, is rather stimulating.
Bob
And, I can't find out who bought the one T20 book my gaming store sold. Oh well, at least I have two players. Now if only I could play! At least i am having fun GMing. Watching the Traveller infection spread through the psyche of a new victim, or two, is rather stimulating.
Bob
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
And by the time you learned about it and went to find it we had already sold out!
We've sold over 5000 copies of the book, are gearing a second printing of another 2000. Over a thousand copies of that first run were sold through bookstores like Borders...
It's 'lack of visibility' is because it is currently out of stock.
I'd say visibility has been rather good considering it was released mid October and sold out this quickly.
Hunter
hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
One store does not make an industry. We've had a number of stores contact us directly to try and get copies because they currently can't get them from the distributors. We've also had quite a number of reports of stores being unable to keep it in stock because it was selling so well.
Because a game like T20 doesn't do well in one area doesn't mean it isn't doing well in others.
Hunter
Two of my players in my wednesday night game of T20 are of the female type.
They love Traveller, but then they are highly intelligent.
maybe it's the idea that it's somehow HARD to play Traveller because of it's reputation. I don't know.
so I'm basically pleased to have two strong females in one of ym T20 games. It's very refreshing.
Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain
They love Traveller, but then they are highly intelligent.
maybe it's the idea that it's somehow HARD to play Traveller because of it's reputation. I don't know.
so I'm basically pleased to have two strong females in one of ym T20 games. It's very refreshing.
Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain
Well I must confirm that they are full grown women folk. Amazingly enough, they are sisters. One is even in the Military, inactive reserve, her name is Cat. The other is a OR nurse and her name is Tonya.
I will admit that they had a Dad who was a gamer, and was a grognard from WAY back. So I think they were unduely influenced. But they do enjoy the game.
and i agree, there are TOO few women who play RPG's to begin with and fewer still who play Traveller, but I think the more the women see that the game is fun to play and they might filter in.
So, I guess the objective here is to make them welcome in a fair and open way.
Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain
I will admit that they had a Dad who was a gamer, and was a grognard from WAY back. So I think they were unduely influenced. But they do enjoy the game.
and i agree, there are TOO few women who play RPG's to begin with and fewer still who play Traveller, but I think the more the women see that the game is fun to play and they might filter in.
So, I guess the objective here is to make them welcome in a fair and open way.
Bruce
The Man Behind the Curtain
Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
A few thoughts entered my mind (hey, it could happen!).
1) Poor market research and penetration by any publisher has led to the demise of many RPG's (not that most of them will ever be missed).
2) Game stores make more profit through the accessory market (miniatures, battlemats, deathdice, etc.) than they do with the original gaming materials (books, modules, etc.).
3) Too many women have the same aversion to SF/RPG's that they do towards math and science classes ("Whaddaya mean, I gotta think?!").
4) Classic Traveller could be re-packaged as "Basic Traveller", and sold for half the price of T20. This could draw more neophytes into the game.
Opinions?
----------------
"Fission devices and flashburns that sting,
These are a few of my favorite things!"
1) Poor market research and penetration by any publisher has led to the demise of many RPG's (not that most of them will ever be missed).
2) Game stores make more profit through the accessory market (miniatures, battlemats, deathdice, etc.) than they do with the original gaming materials (books, modules, etc.).
3) Too many women have the same aversion to SF/RPG's that they do towards math and science classes ("Whaddaya mean, I gotta think?!").
4) Classic Traveller could be re-packaged as "Basic Traveller", and sold for half the price of T20. This could draw more neophytes into the game.
Opinions?
----------------
"Fission devices and flashburns that sting,
These are a few of my favorite things!"
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I guess I lucked out... the Baroness Saarthuran only really started playing a few years back, but she consistently gives the more advanced players a run for the money with her quick wits... this coupled with the bonus that she is "easy on the eyes", somewhat of a rarity in the RPG/Scifi community...
I'm not trying to be cruel or petty, just making an observation, you rarely see swimsuit models (which the baroness is not, by the by, but looks a lot like Lauren Ambrose from "six feet under"... delish!) rolling up characters, what?
It takes a very special lady indeed to be into Scifi and RPGs... and by special I mean Smart.
As far as the marketing aspects of RPGs go, I admire the volume of work that Games Workshop (the makers of Warhammer, etc.) pulls off, but at the same time, there is something very souless, sinister, and corporate about it... I was impressed that they were able to show the basics to anyone that cared to walk in the door of the store in a few minutes, but still there was something about it that suggested that they didn't want players to think for themselves, as there was a huge line of kids (and kids they were!) lined up, all playing ultramarines... Traveller has never really done this in its basic form, which is what I always loved it for.
The dawn of the "Card Game" or now this "Hero Clix" nonsense may be a great marketing coup, But it, in my humble opinion, does a great disservice to gaming in undermining the imagination used in making a good game. The Brain is a muscle of a kind, what? Traveller is Gold's Gym in that equation. Perhaps it is the narrowness in scope of the advertising venues that it limiting for RPGs... hmmm... It is unfortunate that Cards and RPGs consistently get lumped with one another...
Overheard in a Comics Store in NYC...
"I want to go back in time and shoot all those (deleted) hippies making that stupid Magic Game"
Ps... Nice topic this one, What?
I'm not trying to be cruel or petty, just making an observation, you rarely see swimsuit models (which the baroness is not, by the by, but looks a lot like Lauren Ambrose from "six feet under"... delish!) rolling up characters, what?
It takes a very special lady indeed to be into Scifi and RPGs... and by special I mean Smart.
As far as the marketing aspects of RPGs go, I admire the volume of work that Games Workshop (the makers of Warhammer, etc.) pulls off, but at the same time, there is something very souless, sinister, and corporate about it... I was impressed that they were able to show the basics to anyone that cared to walk in the door of the store in a few minutes, but still there was something about it that suggested that they didn't want players to think for themselves, as there was a huge line of kids (and kids they were!) lined up, all playing ultramarines... Traveller has never really done this in its basic form, which is what I always loved it for.
The dawn of the "Card Game" or now this "Hero Clix" nonsense may be a great marketing coup, But it, in my humble opinion, does a great disservice to gaming in undermining the imagination used in making a good game. The Brain is a muscle of a kind, what? Traveller is Gold's Gym in that equation. Perhaps it is the narrowness in scope of the advertising venues that it limiting for RPGs... hmmm... It is unfortunate that Cards and RPGs consistently get lumped with one another...
Overheard in a Comics Store in NYC...
"I want to go back in time and shoot all those (deleted) hippies making that stupid Magic Game"
Ps... Nice topic this one, What?
1. I don't think that women necessarily have an aversion to math and science, but they are (or have been) socialized not to be as interested in it as men have, and not because it requires thought. This opens the door for discussion of all sorts of topics on (e.g.) women's rights (the bikini being just the opposite extreme from the burkha[sp?], for example), but I'd like to preempt any such since it would be out of place.
2. The marketing issue is a strong one for rpgs in general, but more so for science fiction, which nowadays gets less press than fantasy. Here in America (and I can't say for any other countries, but it _seems_ to be true elsewhere) there is increasingly less emphasis on science (and to a certain extent literature, which is caused by the same thing) than on "softer" issues. Maybe science teachers should be made aware of Traveller, and encouraged to tell their students! Other ways of increasing scientific interest are not something I know of, so I can't really talk about that.
2. The marketing issue is a strong one for rpgs in general, but more so for science fiction, which nowadays gets less press than fantasy. Here in America (and I can't say for any other countries, but it _seems_ to be true elsewhere) there is increasingly less emphasis on science (and to a certain extent literature, which is caused by the same thing) than on "softer" issues. Maybe science teachers should be made aware of Traveller, and encouraged to tell their students! Other ways of increasing scientific interest are not something I know of, so I can't really talk about that.
I don't think it is the problem of math and science that does not attract new women gamers. It is that so long the whole Gamer subculture was predominantly male. I think as the hobby has matured more women are attracted into trying gaming.
Most of the fans of Science Fiction are becoming increasingly diverse because of the expansion to include women authors. When I did a bookmark for SF recently, I was surprised that I did not need to think about gender, as both genders are equally represented in both Hard & Soft SF traditions. Having great illustrators like Weber covers really helps more readers to pick up the title. Hat's down, to Hunter for securing the cover for T20...but this only needs to continue and built upon.
Most of the fans of Science Fiction are becoming increasingly diverse because of the expansion to include women authors. When I did a bookmark for SF recently, I was surprised that I did not need to think about gender, as both genders are equally represented in both Hard & Soft SF traditions. Having great illustrators like Weber covers really helps more readers to pick up the title. Hat's down, to Hunter for securing the cover for T20...but this only needs to continue and built upon.
Star Wars was a popular movie as were the Prequels. The Star Wars RPG is about in every store that sells D&D. The question is what is it about Star Wars that makes it so popular? Traveller shares some common elements with the Star Wars RPG, but others are different. One thing that stands out in my mind is that Star Wars doesn't have any standard system for catergorizing planets. A lot of Star Wars rules were made for the movie screen. Take Space Combat for example. Traveller Starships have too accelerate and decelerate to reach a destination. Star Wars Starships just fly there. Take a scene from The Empire Strikes Back: Han Solo is in his Millenium Falcon, he's trying to evade Tie Fighters, and Star Destroyers, he sees and Asteroid Field up ahead, so he heads for it to find cover. Suppose you then created a parallel Traveller Universe with Han Solo in it and an Evil Empire. Han Solo now Pilots a Far Trader and he's being pursued by Imperial Fighters as he leaves a frozen planet with 2 robots and a rebel princess onboard. How would this scene play differenly? Han Solo's Radar detects Asteroids up ahead, so he heads for them with the Imperial Fighters in pursuit. The Fighters should over take the Far Trader because their acceleration is better. The Ship could approach one asteroid, but he must slow down if he is going to use it for cover. The Imperial Fighters would have to slow down also if they are going to capture them otherwise, they'll each only get one shot at him as they pass by, then they'll be out of range. If Han lowers his ship into a crater, the fighters can then only come at him from one direction. Unfortunately for Han, the Asteroid would likely have no tunnels of caves to hide in. Perhaps he could bury his ship under the asteroid's loose powdery regolith. He'll need the time to repair his Jump Drive.
Tom I believe you have struck it right on the head. th SW RPG is geared towards more cinematic style play, whereas the Traveller (any really) T20 RPG is geared more towards the realistic play style. Lets throw in acceleration and decceleration and economics and force (well you can ignore those, but then, why not just use Star Wars if you're going to do that?) the players to live in the Traveller universe. It's all of these things that keep Travellers coming back.
I'm all for new blood, but with a caveat.
Traveller has a loyal following already, and we're already divided somewhat regarding which edition of rules to use and which setting era to use. The last thing we need is a bunch of loud mouthed rabid, drooling fanboys showing up and clinging to whichever version was to try and market itself to a 'hip new traveller audience' the way Wizards did with D&D3e.
I've seen a few debates and even a handful of flamewars in my years spent lurking around the Traveller online community, and although passionate about the Traveller version/era we play, there seems to be at least some camaraderie (sp?) of the 'well, at least you guys are playing Traveller, I dont like your Traveller universe, but at least you're supporting the game'.
This is not the case with the attitude of newer players of D&D towards fans of the older D&D games. There is contempt, scorn and outright hostlity, due in no small part to the way Wizards tore 2nd edition AD&D apart in marketing 3e D&D.
Sure, D&D3e has more young fans than Traveller, but is the price worth it? You might point to the thriving online community for 3e and the d20 system and the fact that Traveller's fandom isn't nearly as visible or large, but IMO this is due to the fact that 3e is the new thing. Wizards succesfully disowned the previous version of their bread and butter game to gain a larger market for their new one. What if we had had the internet in 1985? 1980? 1978? I can assure you Traveller would have had a HUGE presence, right along side D&D and AD&D1.
Through what I see as a deliberate, and praise worthy, attempt by QLI (and SJG with GT to a lesser extent) to not gamble with alienating (no pun intended) the existing Traveller fan base on the off chance they could repeat Wizards success and bring a ton of new fans into the game. This means that when people who may otherwise be drooling d20 fanboys (as well as loyal players of the d20 system games, of which I am one, there is a difference) see T20, they dont see a brand new game with a fresh new take on the classic Traveller concepts and tons of new material, they see what is in their eyes another attempt at keeping a funky old system from fading away.
We're not kewl, so what? If broadening the Traveller fanbase to D&D or V:tM size means creating huge schisms in the fanbase and sacrificing the integrity of the game and it's settings, then hey, I'm happy to remain just a lame old dewd who still plays 'that weird old game Traveller'.
If someone has a plan to capture a broader audience without doing those things, I'm all for it, I'm just not sure it's possible. Keep on spreading the word to your friends and fellow gamers, and keep participating in the fandom, both online and off, and the game will survive. In Marc Miller we have, IMO, one of the very few game designers who has repeatedly put the best interests of the game ahead of personal ego or industry agenda, and from that we have a selection of fine Traveller games to play and love. Let's be thankful for that and not worry about the fact that D&D still has more fans.
Traveller has a loyal following already, and we're already divided somewhat regarding which edition of rules to use and which setting era to use. The last thing we need is a bunch of loud mouthed rabid, drooling fanboys showing up and clinging to whichever version was to try and market itself to a 'hip new traveller audience' the way Wizards did with D&D3e.
I've seen a few debates and even a handful of flamewars in my years spent lurking around the Traveller online community, and although passionate about the Traveller version/era we play, there seems to be at least some camaraderie (sp?) of the 'well, at least you guys are playing Traveller, I dont like your Traveller universe, but at least you're supporting the game'.
This is not the case with the attitude of newer players of D&D towards fans of the older D&D games. There is contempt, scorn and outright hostlity, due in no small part to the way Wizards tore 2nd edition AD&D apart in marketing 3e D&D.
Sure, D&D3e has more young fans than Traveller, but is the price worth it? You might point to the thriving online community for 3e and the d20 system and the fact that Traveller's fandom isn't nearly as visible or large, but IMO this is due to the fact that 3e is the new thing. Wizards succesfully disowned the previous version of their bread and butter game to gain a larger market for their new one. What if we had had the internet in 1985? 1980? 1978? I can assure you Traveller would have had a HUGE presence, right along side D&D and AD&D1.
Through what I see as a deliberate, and praise worthy, attempt by QLI (and SJG with GT to a lesser extent) to not gamble with alienating (no pun intended) the existing Traveller fan base on the off chance they could repeat Wizards success and bring a ton of new fans into the game. This means that when people who may otherwise be drooling d20 fanboys (as well as loyal players of the d20 system games, of which I am one, there is a difference) see T20, they dont see a brand new game with a fresh new take on the classic Traveller concepts and tons of new material, they see what is in their eyes another attempt at keeping a funky old system from fading away.
We're not kewl, so what? If broadening the Traveller fanbase to D&D or V:tM size means creating huge schisms in the fanbase and sacrificing the integrity of the game and it's settings, then hey, I'm happy to remain just a lame old dewd who still plays 'that weird old game Traveller'.
If someone has a plan to capture a broader audience without doing those things, I'm all for it, I'm just not sure it's possible. Keep on spreading the word to your friends and fellow gamers, and keep participating in the fandom, both online and off, and the game will survive. In Marc Miller we have, IMO, one of the very few game designers who has repeatedly put the best interests of the game ahead of personal ego or industry agenda, and from that we have a selection of fine Traveller games to play and love. Let's be thankful for that and not worry about the fact that D&D still has more fans.
I don't know, Traveller has all those things as background. I usually play a more cinematic game, giving players to hold up cards to indicate action, like in a LARP. For even the economics rules can be written into play. And, I don;t know about you, when I play, I use the UPP as a reference not as an all encompassing description. Just taking it all with a grain of sand focusing more on player-player interaction is my game.
hirch duckfinder
SOC-13
"4) Classic Traveller could be re-packaged as "Basic Traveller", and sold for half the price of T20. This could draw more neophytes into the game."
Now there is something in this .
classic had a charm because it was initially a low budget labour of love , the rules were all over the place . the whole thing developed in an ongoing way as more material came out . but basically the system was very simple . two dice , skill rolls and a fantastic setting .
all the susequent versions have been MUCH too complicated to bring in new players . they have worked well as updates and revisions for original players .
if you want to bring in new players , T5 must come out as cheap affordable lbbs , with a set of three needed to start playing + lots of add ons to spend weekly pocket money on . the rules could be similar to classic ; skills and simple rolls , but well organised . a simple system for ship combat ( weapons v defenses ) would be needed , who understands vectors ?
short clear adventures would help too , with lots of action in them + good plots , kids do not have the patience for heavy exploration . they do have lots of imagery to call up in their minds from star trek etc , so plug into this .
also lots of material that will work with a ref and just one player ( or more ) would decrease logistical problems of getting games going .
Now there is something in this .
classic had a charm because it was initially a low budget labour of love , the rules were all over the place . the whole thing developed in an ongoing way as more material came out . but basically the system was very simple . two dice , skill rolls and a fantastic setting .
all the susequent versions have been MUCH too complicated to bring in new players . they have worked well as updates and revisions for original players .
if you want to bring in new players , T5 must come out as cheap affordable lbbs , with a set of three needed to start playing + lots of add ons to spend weekly pocket money on . the rules could be similar to classic ; skills and simple rolls , but well organised . a simple system for ship combat ( weapons v defenses ) would be needed , who understands vectors ?
short clear adventures would help too , with lots of action in them + good plots , kids do not have the patience for heavy exploration . they do have lots of imagery to call up in their minds from star trek etc , so plug into this .
also lots of material that will work with a ref and just one player ( or more ) would decrease logistical problems of getting games going .
IMO, dumbing down T5 to serve as an intro game for T20 would be cutting off your foot to spite your leg.
First off, d20 players want d20, I don't imagine a whole lot of them will buy a non-d20 game to get ready for T20. They'll either buy T20 or find another game.
Second, what about all the people who don't play T20? If I, for one, got the impression that T5 was just a 'T20 Lite' type game, I'd probably pass. I'm honestly not in love with T20 and would like T5 to be something substantive, not just a crutch for other versions to lean on.
First off, d20 players want d20, I don't imagine a whole lot of them will buy a non-d20 game to get ready for T20. They'll either buy T20 or find another game.
Second, what about all the people who don't play T20? If I, for one, got the impression that T5 was just a 'T20 Lite' type game, I'd probably pass. I'm honestly not in love with T20 and would like T5 to be something substantive, not just a crutch for other versions to lean on.
