mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
What about Depot/Depot Alpha and Pashus/Depot Beta?
How come it is your decision?
New Era Sourcebooks
- Thread starter MJD
- Start date
daryen
SOC-14 1K
What about Depot/Depot Alpha and Pashus/Depot Beta?</font>[/QUOTE]I always kinda viewed their TL as reflective of their being depots, not as a society as such. I could be wrong on that.
Besides which, I'm thinking that the research station on Pashus is poking into that which man is not meant to know. Probably not a happy story.
How come it is your decision? </font>[/QUOTE]Because I am trying to put the information for the Spinward States book together. (Look farther back in the discussion for the explanation.) Of course, MJD will have to approve everything, but I do think I am on the right track of what he is looking for.
Of course, this is all speculative anyway. The main book has to sell well enough for their to be any others.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Thanks for the reply Daryen, I'm sure i'm not alone in looking forward to a Spinward Marches supplement to follow on from the 1248 sourcebook.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
--------------------------------------------------
Well Martin, if its an "in what order would you like to see em" question-(first to last)--
---this of course is just my biased opinion based on wants and needs for campaigning/ writing.
Product line question...why Martin! Adventures for each setting/ place sourcebook, OF COURSE!
Soleean Heretic of the Tne-list,
After some consideration, Rimward States would most likely focus on the four sector area including Solomani Rim, Alpha Crucis, Neworld and Aldeberan sectors.
I say this because of the amount of information in the playtest materials that focus on the Neworld sector for a time, and this is the only combination of four neighboring sectors that includes both Solomani Rim (for Terra) and the Neworld sector.
Some food for thought,
Flynn
I say this because of the amount of information in the playtest materials that focus on the Neworld sector for a time, and this is the only combination of four neighboring sectors that includes both Solomani Rim (for Terra) and the Neworld sector.
Some food for thought,
Flynn
Have I missed something? I thought the term Rimward States would apply to those pocket empires Rimward of the Solomani Confederation, housing last decendants of the original Terran nations and the clone armies of the Interstellar Wars period.
Perhaps, someone with insight into Jon's mind or better yet Jon himself...could clarify what is going into the sourcebook. As I have only heard about this from this list, as there is nothing on SJG site and even less commented on elsewhere on the web.
Perhaps, someone with insight into Jon's mind or better yet Jon himself...could clarify what is going into the sourcebook. As I have only heard about this from this list, as there is nothing on SJG site and even less commented on elsewhere on the web.
kafka47 wrote:
"I thought the term Rimward States would apply to those pocket empires Rimward of the Solomani Confederation, housing last decendants of the original Terran nations and the clone armies of the Interstellar Wars period."
Mr. Kafka,
Now I'm wondering if I've missed something! Clone armies of the Interstellar War period? Where did you ever hear that?!? A URL, man, and be quick about it!
Sincerely,
Larsen
"I thought the term Rimward States would apply to those pocket empires Rimward of the Solomani Confederation, housing last decendants of the original Terran nations and the clone armies of the Interstellar Wars period."
Mr. Kafka,
Now I'm wondering if I've missed something! Clone armies of the Interstellar War period? Where did you ever hear that?!? A URL, man, and be quick about it!
Sincerely,
Larsen
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I think you are confusing the Aldebaran sourcebook that will (hopefully) be a GT product from SJG and the Rimward States sourcebook which will be a 1248 sourcebook from QLI.
The Rimward States will have to include the Solomani Rim. MJD hasn't stated which three other sectors would be included. (It is quite possible he hasn't even thought about which combination would work best.)
I guess a lot of that (i.e. the sectors covered in QLI's future supplement Rimward States) depends on the location of the various polities of the Rimward States, and what sector(s) they call home.
And for that, we'll probably need to see Chapter Three, coming out soon on the TNE 1248 Playtest site.
I really like this approach to development,
Flynn
And for that, we'll probably need to see Chapter Three, coming out soon on the TNE 1248 Playtest site.
I really like this approach to development,
Flynn
Larsen:
It was an elementary conclusion from the HIWG that formulated that there was not enough Terrans in 2100 to take on the might of the entire Pax Vilani alone. Solution grow more humans and this would also explain the mastery of geneering that the Solomani possess.
Looking at Rats & Cats, we can find scattered references to Solomani expanding through the flank and Spinward till they hit the Aslan. Surely, these scattered colonies would make up the bulk of the "Rimward states" or the pocket empires outside the Solomani Confederation.
It was an elementary conclusion from the HIWG that formulated that there was not enough Terrans in 2100 to take on the might of the entire Pax Vilani alone. Solution grow more humans and this would also explain the mastery of geneering that the Solomani possess.
Looking at Rats & Cats, we can find scattered references to Solomani expanding through the flank and Spinward till they hit the Aslan. Surely, these scattered colonies would make up the bulk of the "Rimward states" or the pocket empires outside the Solomani Confederation.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Is there an agreement between QLI and SJG over how canon will develop? Is Marc overseeing it all?
I ask because the GURPS alien supplements introduce some interesting aliens to rimward.
Would they/are they considered canon in T20, or can you write them out saying Virus got them?
Also the forthcoming SJG Intersteller Wars era (if it happens) has crossover implications with the QLI Gateway timeline.
I ask because the GURPS alien supplements introduce some interesting aliens to rimward.
Would they/are they considered canon in T20, or can you write them out saying Virus got them?
Also the forthcoming SJG Intersteller Wars era (if it happens) has crossover implications with the QLI Gateway timeline.
M
Malenfant
Guest
I don't think he is, but I think if any agreement exists between QLI and SJG it's one that says 'don't tread on eachothers' toes'.
I think those are best kept to the GURPS version - they're all shoehorned conversions of Pulver's old Spacemaster aliens to Traveller, and I don't think most of them really fit in with the setting.
Bear in mind also that GURPS is technically an 'alternate universe' for Traveller, so it can probably diverge a little more than the other versions of the setting.
How so? The indications are that IW will (initially at least) be set almost entirely around the Solomani Rim sector. Where would it overlap with Gateway?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
True ,but elements of GURPS Traveller have made their way into Traveller canon. For example, though I loath to mention it, jump masking
.Please ignore the question regarding Gateway era and the Intersteller Wars era. I'd got it into my head that meant the Solomani Rim War for some reason. It actually means the era during which Earth battles the Vilani Imperium, doesn't it?
M
Malenfant
Guest
Did it? The 100D limit was there beforehand - all jump masking does is say 'you can't come out of jump space within it', which we already knew.Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
True ,but elements of GURPS Traveller have made their way into Traveller canon. For example, though I loath to mention it, jump masking
Yep. It's set at the end of the First Imperium.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Not quite. Jump masking also precipitates a ship out of jump if the ship passes within 100D of a larger(than the ship) body while in jumpspace. It's this bit that's started many a heated discussion.
TheEngineer
SOC-14 1K
Not quite. Jump masking also precipitates a ship out of jump if the ship passes within 100D of a larger(than the ship) body while in jumpspace. It's this bit that's started many a heated discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]Yep.
A long discussion with some more questions at the end than answers in between.
That was the point I really started to hate this "canon or not canon" effects on
the TUTWA (Traveller Universe Thats Was Once) caused by all
these ruleset and timeline seperations....
As a "old" CT starter I've got the feeling that Traveller it slowly torn apart.
Guess thats a reason why there are just MTUses left, because nobody is really sure what "canon" is or what is not.
Thats why we are spending precious time in the TML, Coti or
newsgroups in often fruitless discussions.
We really could use this time to be productive by creating adventures, deckplans, background etc...
But I guess we have to live with that situation...
Hope this statement is not misplaced...
I really hope 1248 becomes successful, so MJD could work on some new stuff for the kind of "underdeveloped" TNE background.
I would concentrate on a comprehensive
sector and world data collection (I always need a map) as this already served well for CT and is the data base for lots of other stuff.
And I would like the Pocket Empire Sourcebook, because this might be also useful for different Traveller settings.
What I really would like, too, is a pretty adventure as a "starter", which provides some more "feeling" about playing around in the TNE setting.
(purpose like Knightfall for MT, just a bit nicer)
Regards,
Mert
M
Malenfant
Guest
To be honest, that's probably because a coherent background was never presented in CT in the first place - it seemed to have been made up as they went along, kinda lika TOS Star Trek.Originally posted by TheEngineer:
A long discussion with some more questions at the end than answers in between.
That was the point I really started to hate this "canon or not canon" effects on
the TUTWA (Traveller Universe Thats Was Once) caused by all
these ruleset and timeline seperations....
As a "old" CT starter I've got the feeling that Traveller it slowly torn apart.
Guess thats a reason why there are just MTUses left, because nobody is really sure what "canon" is or what is not.
[/QB]
kafka47 explained:
"It was an elementary conclusion from the HIWG that formulated that there was not enough Terrans in 2100 to take on the might of the entire Pax Vilani alone."
Mr. Kafka,
Well, duh. And HIWG figured that out all by themselves? The utterly implausible nature of the Interstellar War period as described in canon is an old, old, OLD story. I know very few people who, when they bother to examine the canonical claims, don't become immediately aware of the totally ridiculous assertions and assumptions about the period. To put it bluntly, the canonical IW story is b*llshit.
And HIWG's Terran clone armies 'solution' is b*llshit too.
Of course, given HIWG's rather spotty track record; like not realizing that the Vargr and Aslan incursions during the Rebellion period as described in canon are b*llshit, I'm not surprised that they failed to see the many flaws in their solution. Simply put: Do clones come fresh from the factory as fully functioning adults complete with all the skills they will require? Are they Athena-like, springing fully formed and armed from the forehead of Zeus? Of course not, they are nothing like that at all.
After you decant a clone you have a BABY. A baby that needs to be cared for, fed, taught, trained, and who - after 16 or 18 years - may be able to tackle whatever job you need them to do. Even if you geneer some rapid growing, fully grown by five years old, clone trooper, you'll still need to feed it and train it. That takes time and that takes people, neither of which the Terran Federation has a lot of. Factories and decanting centers straight out of 'Brave New World' still require lots of folks to do all sorts of work.
So, whether they're Mk1 types that require 16-18 years of rearing or Mk2 Redi-Grow types, you'll still need to raise and train(1) them. How many clones can a creche raise? What's the formula involved? How many workers X are needed to raise Y clones over time Z? Ever work in a day care center? Care for a dozen or so children for a few hours? Was anyone in HIWG a parent?
Clone armies is just another poorly thought out handwave - a HIWG speciality. The trouble with handwaves is that they usually create many more problems than the few problems they 'fix'. Applying a handwave is like wrestling with a piece of sheet metal; you pin down one corner and find that the other corner no longer fits where it is supposed to. A good example of this is the 'thin on the ground' handwave.
In order to try and balance the Ziru Sirka's and Terran Confederation's numbers, the IW Era Vilani are supposed to have thinly settled their Imperium. There are only a relative few hi-pop worlds in the Ziru Sirka; maybe only one or two on the Rim, and most ZS worlds are limited to a population of 100-500 million. This works rather neatly until one remembers that the Ziru Sirka was also holding down many minor races, some of which; the Suerrat(2) and Geonee in particular, had extensive empires of their own prior to the Consolidation Wars. If the Vilani are 'thin on the ground', where to they get the muscle to hold down all those minor races? Remember, they not only hold them down, they also enforce Vilani cultural norms on those captive populations whether they are human or not. And so the handwave merry-go-round begins...
- You see, the Vilani are 'thin on the ground'.
- Okay, how they do keep the minor races in check and enforce Vilani cultural norms without the numbers to do so?
- Ahhh... The Vilani are only thin on the ground on the Rim.
- Okay, how do they keep the Vegans down and enforce cultural norms on the tuhuirs?
- Ahhh... The Vilani are really good at fighting and are ruthless so they can do a little with a lot, so they can handle the Vegans easily.
- Okay, so if they're good at fighting and ruthless why aren't they good at fighting and ruthless when they engage the Terrans?
- Ahhh...
As you can see, each handwave you apply carries the seeds of its own destruction because each handwave either interferes with another handwave or creates additional problems that then require additional handwaves. Eventually the entire edifice collapses under the weight of all the handwaves. I call this the 'Handwave Whipsaw Effect'.
At the present time in canon we have the facts about the IW period, we have the story about the IW period, and we have the results of the IW period. The story is supposed to use the facts to explain the results. Trouble is, the story cannot do any such thing without inventing a whole mess of new facts; i.e. handwaves. And we've seen just what slathering a thick coat of handwavium accomplishes - nothing.
What I'm suggesting is, rather than wasting time creating new facts (handwaves) that eventually backfire anyway, we simply reinterpret the story of the IW period. We have the facts and the results. All we need do is come up with a story that uses those facts to achieve those results. What's more, this new, reinterpreted story can still incorporate the old, nonsensical story in much the same manner that historical truth incorporates 'common knowledge'. Before anyone gets their knickers in a knot(3), let me point out that this mechanism has been used in Traveller before.
Remember the first time you read about the Zhodani? Mind rapers, right? They were the barbarian masterminds behind the Outworlds Coalition who employed the dreaded Tavrchedl' - the psionic Thought Police. Well, that was 1980 and early CT. What are the Zhodani now in 2003? What was written about them later in CT? In MT? TNE? GT? T20? Did the 'facts' and 'results' regarding the Zhos change? Or did the 'story' about them change instead? Did you notice how the old Zhodani 'mind raper' story is part of the new Zhodani story? The old mind raping bits are explained away as 'common knowledge', something the average Eneri on the street 'knows' thanks to Imperial propaganda.
Now look at the story about the Aslan and jump drive in the same manner. Any change in the facts or results? Hell, no. Any change in the story? Hell, yes. Again, the 'true' new story incorporates the old story as 'common knowledge'.
That's what we need regarding the Interstellar War period. The canonical story simply cannot use the known facts to produce the known results. It just doesn't work, no way, no how. What we don't need is to pile on more facts, more handwaves, to make an obviously broken story work. That doesn't work either. Instead, we need a new story, one that incorporates the old story as a bit of 'common knowledge'. The current canonical story of the Interstellar Wars is merely what the average Eneri on the street 'knows' about a period over 3000 years in his past. Is it what a historian of the period would know? Most certainly not, and THAT is the story we need to come up with!
So, throw all those handwaves away, we won't be needing them anymore. Besides, they didn't really work.
How did the Terrans make up the numbers they needed? Simple, those colony worlds weren't Terran-settled, they were Terran-ruled.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - Just a wild guess here, but HIWG was going to train them all with memory RNA, right? Yet another scientifically disproven, good idea at the time, cultural echo from the pen of Larry Niven, much like the 'a big moon is needed to strip atmosphere' idea. Sure, memory RNA treatments are mentioned in the LBBs, but the effects are rather limited in time. So, your going to have an army of idiots who all need to shoot up before going into battle? Some officers and NCOs run around with hyposprays hoping to juice the regiment quickly enough so that they can take Hill 324? Terran Confederation Kafers that need to be 'smartened up' before they can fight or work? Right.
2 - A 'sector-sized' empire settled and linked together by sublight generation ships. The Suerrat homeworld is Ilelish; the planet whose equatorial zone was 'scrubbed free of life' in the 400s by the Third Imperium, so many of the hi-pop worlds in that region will have Suerrat populations. Tell me again how the 'thin on the ground' Vilani are keeping control of and enforcing Vilani culture norms on that many Suerrat on that many planets?
3 - Plenty of folks at JTAS got their knickers bunched over this one. None made any serious counter-proposals though; serious meaning suggesting a solution beyond 'That's what's been written and it works no matter how many holes you poke in it! Terra Uber Alles!'.
"It was an elementary conclusion from the HIWG that formulated that there was not enough Terrans in 2100 to take on the might of the entire Pax Vilani alone."
Mr. Kafka,
Well, duh. And HIWG figured that out all by themselves? The utterly implausible nature of the Interstellar War period as described in canon is an old, old, OLD story. I know very few people who, when they bother to examine the canonical claims, don't become immediately aware of the totally ridiculous assertions and assumptions about the period. To put it bluntly, the canonical IW story is b*llshit.
And HIWG's Terran clone armies 'solution' is b*llshit too.
Of course, given HIWG's rather spotty track record; like not realizing that the Vargr and Aslan incursions during the Rebellion period as described in canon are b*llshit, I'm not surprised that they failed to see the many flaws in their solution. Simply put: Do clones come fresh from the factory as fully functioning adults complete with all the skills they will require? Are they Athena-like, springing fully formed and armed from the forehead of Zeus? Of course not, they are nothing like that at all.
After you decant a clone you have a BABY. A baby that needs to be cared for, fed, taught, trained, and who - after 16 or 18 years - may be able to tackle whatever job you need them to do. Even if you geneer some rapid growing, fully grown by five years old, clone trooper, you'll still need to feed it and train it. That takes time and that takes people, neither of which the Terran Federation has a lot of. Factories and decanting centers straight out of 'Brave New World' still require lots of folks to do all sorts of work.
So, whether they're Mk1 types that require 16-18 years of rearing or Mk2 Redi-Grow types, you'll still need to raise and train(1) them. How many clones can a creche raise? What's the formula involved? How many workers X are needed to raise Y clones over time Z? Ever work in a day care center? Care for a dozen or so children for a few hours? Was anyone in HIWG a parent?
Clone armies is just another poorly thought out handwave - a HIWG speciality. The trouble with handwaves is that they usually create many more problems than the few problems they 'fix'. Applying a handwave is like wrestling with a piece of sheet metal; you pin down one corner and find that the other corner no longer fits where it is supposed to. A good example of this is the 'thin on the ground' handwave.
In order to try and balance the Ziru Sirka's and Terran Confederation's numbers, the IW Era Vilani are supposed to have thinly settled their Imperium. There are only a relative few hi-pop worlds in the Ziru Sirka; maybe only one or two on the Rim, and most ZS worlds are limited to a population of 100-500 million. This works rather neatly until one remembers that the Ziru Sirka was also holding down many minor races, some of which; the Suerrat(2) and Geonee in particular, had extensive empires of their own prior to the Consolidation Wars. If the Vilani are 'thin on the ground', where to they get the muscle to hold down all those minor races? Remember, they not only hold them down, they also enforce Vilani cultural norms on those captive populations whether they are human or not. And so the handwave merry-go-round begins...
- You see, the Vilani are 'thin on the ground'.
- Okay, how they do keep the minor races in check and enforce Vilani cultural norms without the numbers to do so?
- Ahhh... The Vilani are only thin on the ground on the Rim.
- Okay, how do they keep the Vegans down and enforce cultural norms on the tuhuirs?
- Ahhh... The Vilani are really good at fighting and are ruthless so they can do a little with a lot, so they can handle the Vegans easily.
- Okay, so if they're good at fighting and ruthless why aren't they good at fighting and ruthless when they engage the Terrans?
- Ahhh...
As you can see, each handwave you apply carries the seeds of its own destruction because each handwave either interferes with another handwave or creates additional problems that then require additional handwaves. Eventually the entire edifice collapses under the weight of all the handwaves. I call this the 'Handwave Whipsaw Effect'.
At the present time in canon we have the facts about the IW period, we have the story about the IW period, and we have the results of the IW period. The story is supposed to use the facts to explain the results. Trouble is, the story cannot do any such thing without inventing a whole mess of new facts; i.e. handwaves. And we've seen just what slathering a thick coat of handwavium accomplishes - nothing.
What I'm suggesting is, rather than wasting time creating new facts (handwaves) that eventually backfire anyway, we simply reinterpret the story of the IW period. We have the facts and the results. All we need do is come up with a story that uses those facts to achieve those results. What's more, this new, reinterpreted story can still incorporate the old, nonsensical story in much the same manner that historical truth incorporates 'common knowledge'. Before anyone gets their knickers in a knot(3), let me point out that this mechanism has been used in Traveller before.
Remember the first time you read about the Zhodani? Mind rapers, right? They were the barbarian masterminds behind the Outworlds Coalition who employed the dreaded Tavrchedl' - the psionic Thought Police. Well, that was 1980 and early CT. What are the Zhodani now in 2003? What was written about them later in CT? In MT? TNE? GT? T20? Did the 'facts' and 'results' regarding the Zhos change? Or did the 'story' about them change instead? Did you notice how the old Zhodani 'mind raper' story is part of the new Zhodani story? The old mind raping bits are explained away as 'common knowledge', something the average Eneri on the street 'knows' thanks to Imperial propaganda.
Now look at the story about the Aslan and jump drive in the same manner. Any change in the facts or results? Hell, no. Any change in the story? Hell, yes. Again, the 'true' new story incorporates the old story as 'common knowledge'.
That's what we need regarding the Interstellar War period. The canonical story simply cannot use the known facts to produce the known results. It just doesn't work, no way, no how. What we don't need is to pile on more facts, more handwaves, to make an obviously broken story work. That doesn't work either. Instead, we need a new story, one that incorporates the old story as a bit of 'common knowledge'. The current canonical story of the Interstellar Wars is merely what the average Eneri on the street 'knows' about a period over 3000 years in his past. Is it what a historian of the period would know? Most certainly not, and THAT is the story we need to come up with!
So, throw all those handwaves away, we won't be needing them anymore. Besides, they didn't really work.
How did the Terrans make up the numbers they needed? Simple, those colony worlds weren't Terran-settled, they were Terran-ruled.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - Just a wild guess here, but HIWG was going to train them all with memory RNA, right? Yet another scientifically disproven, good idea at the time, cultural echo from the pen of Larry Niven, much like the 'a big moon is needed to strip atmosphere' idea. Sure, memory RNA treatments are mentioned in the LBBs, but the effects are rather limited in time. So, your going to have an army of idiots who all need to shoot up before going into battle? Some officers and NCOs run around with hyposprays hoping to juice the regiment quickly enough so that they can take Hill 324? Terran Confederation Kafers that need to be 'smartened up' before they can fight or work? Right.
2 - A 'sector-sized' empire settled and linked together by sublight generation ships. The Suerrat homeworld is Ilelish; the planet whose equatorial zone was 'scrubbed free of life' in the 400s by the Third Imperium, so many of the hi-pop worlds in that region will have Suerrat populations. Tell me again how the 'thin on the ground' Vilani are keeping control of and enforcing Vilani culture norms on that many Suerrat on that many planets?
3 - Plenty of folks at JTAS got their knickers bunched over this one. None made any serious counter-proposals though; serious meaning suggesting a solution beyond 'That's what's been written and it works no matter how many holes you poke in it! Terra Uber Alles!'.
Erik Boielle
SOC-12
That's what's been written and it works.
Terra Uber Alles!
--
Well yeah - thats what terrans do - knock over large evil empires.
Not really an expert, but has one considered that the Vilani Just Can't Fight?
I was reading this book called Gunboat! about RN gunboats, and in alot of these stories small numbers of europeans managed to disrupt and chase off enormous numbers of foreigners mostly because the foreigners would break and run at the first sign of trouble.
Hence, the really unmotivated crews of the Ziru Sirka encounter the Terrans, and because of the fearsome reputation surrender in droves.
The Vilani Morale collapses and the Terrans soon control the only battlefleets in the area.
The badguys could build more, but no way will they do that and face the mighty Terrans.
In short, the scenario works fine if the vilani have all the fighing spirit of, say, the average special republican guardsman.
Remember the kill ratios of the RN against the French and Spanish. 130 odd to 4 in a thirty year period. A few well earned but crushing victories and the war is all but won!
Terra Uber Alles!
--
Well yeah - thats what terrans do - knock over large evil empires.
Not really an expert, but has one considered that the Vilani Just Can't Fight?
I was reading this book called Gunboat! about RN gunboats, and in alot of these stories small numbers of europeans managed to disrupt and chase off enormous numbers of foreigners mostly because the foreigners would break and run at the first sign of trouble.
Hence, the really unmotivated crews of the Ziru Sirka encounter the Terrans, and because of the fearsome reputation surrender in droves.
The Vilani Morale collapses and the Terrans soon control the only battlefleets in the area.
The badguys could build more, but no way will they do that and face the mighty Terrans.
In short, the scenario works fine if the vilani have all the fighing spirit of, say, the average special republican guardsman.
Remember the kill ratios of the RN against the French and Spanish. 130 odd to 4 in a thirty year period. A few well earned but crushing victories and the war is all but won!
