New Era Sourcebooks

[daryen]

Originally posted by Erik Boielle:
In short, the scenario works fine if the vilani have all the fighing spirit of, say, the average special republican guardsman.

Remember the kill ratios of the RN against the French and Spanish. 130 odd to 4 in a thirty year period. A few well earned but crushing victories and the war is all but won!

Not to dredge up old arguments in the wrong place, but ...

The Vilani know how to fight and are good at it. They have lots and lots of subject races that are more technologically advanced than the Terrans (at least initially) and much, much larger. The Vilani conquered interstellar empires. Terra was (effectively at least) a single world.

Second, the ratio would have to be 1,000,000 (at least) to make things work. The Vilani Empire is just too large, the Terrans (clones or no clones) are just too tiny.

Look, if I throw away any pretense at believability, I can buy the Terrans (with Vegan help) carving out a small interstellar empire (small = a few subsectors) that can hold off a decadent and indifferent Vilani Empire. But the Rule of Man? No. There just aren't enough Terrans.

 

[daryen]

To try and bring this back on topic, the above problem illustrates how important hi-pop, hi-tech worlds are.

For example, in all of Regency Space, what is probably the most important world? Regina? Not even close. Mora? Vincennes? Deneb? Darrian?

No. The most important world is likely to be a world named Askigaak. Why? Because they have TL E with a population of B. (Yes, B!) It is even "industrial" to boot.

And I had never even heard of Askigaak until I started working on this.

 

[Elliot]

Dear Sirs. Sorry, don't agree.

Canon may be bulls**t to you - but in reality the Rule of Man is more about the stagnation and unpopularity of the Vilani Empire among its subjects than Terran military superiority.

I don't want to discuss orders of battle or any wargamy rationalisation as to how the Vilani will win every time.

The British defeated China, despite the fact that China was a military industrial bureaucratic superstate that vastly outnumbered the East India Company adventurers. They did through stealth, opium, trade and a few lucky military battles. They also did it because the Chinese bureaucrats were too arrogant to recognise the threat.

The same in India, the Mughal Empire was rotten too the core despite having vast man power. The British just slowly took over the old corridors of power. There were never more than 100,000 British in India - and they ruled it for 200 years. You wouldn't expect that from playing Command Decision!

I accept your other point, that the Aslan invasion of the Trojan's was a deus ex machina to make the Rebellion more interesting. We know about that history and it is not fully plausible. But the Interstellar Wars is undeveloped territory. We simply don't know what went on because no one has really done any work on it. All we know is that the meson gun and jump 3 were significant. RPGers being who they are tend to focus on guns and ships, but the rest is wide open country.

Sirs, I await your riposte.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Elliot:
All we know is that the meson gun and jump 3 were significant. RPGers being who they are tend to focus on guns and ships, but the rest is wide open country.

I agree with your other points about small countries taking over bigger ones.

2004 should hopefully see the release of the SJG Interstellar Wars book, which should have lots of answers, though doubtless most Traveller fans will ignore it because it's GURPS .

One thing I never understood was quite why the Terran invention of J3 would be so important. The only thing it does is get the Terrans 'behind the lines' quicker and more easily - but that capability alone doesn't win battles.

In a battle for a star system, jump drives simply don't matter - all that matters is the maneuverability and armaments and defences and tactics of the ships in the fleets (and the defences of the world and system). That's what decides the outcome of the battle, because all J-drives do is allow ships to blip our and into a battle, and J3 offers no more advantage in that respect than J2, J1, or J6. At most, all I see J3 doing is to allow Terrans to assemble fleets quicker and move them to the front lines faster, and to penetrate a bit deeper into Vilani space. In fact, it may even act as a disadvantage if the Terrans are just cramming the new drives into the same ships that had the J2 drives, because the J3 drives are bigger and require more fuel, which means less room for other things.

I'd believe the meson gun was far more important to Terran dominance in the Solomani Rim sector than J3, because that does tip the balance in the actual battles heavily in the Terrans' favour.

 

[DED]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
I'd believe the meson gun was far more important to Terran dominance in the Solomani Rim sector than J3, because that does tip the balance in the actual battles heavily in the Terrans' favour.

I read somewhere (can't remember where) that this was indeed the case. The Meson gun gave the Solomani an advantage that made up for lack of numbers. With no meson screens to deter this weapon, I would suppose that the Terrans were able to make quick work of the Vilani. I'm no expert on the IW so YMMV.

 

[mike wightman]

Don't forget the other advantages TL12 has over TL11.
A ship's computer 1 model higher gives your ships a plus 1 to hit and penetrate while your enemy suffers a minus 1 penalty. This has quite an effect on HG combat (I know, this is a TNE site). You also have lighter armour and nuclear dampers.

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

J3 vs J2 is a larger advantage than simply "how far behind the lines can we jump?" A fleet composed of J3 ships can move strategically 1.5X faster than a fleet of J2 ships. This translates into the J3 fleets dictating where and when major engagements take place. J3 fleets on the advance can bypass J2 concentrations, on the retreat, J3 fleets can buy months of time to repair and refit. Being half-again as fast as your opponent is a huge asset to any Admiral waging a strategic war over a large area.

 

[mike wightman]

And another thing, jump 3 tenders can carry "over their weight" and carry more Battle Riders jump 2.

 

[Whipsnade]

Elliot pointed out:

"The British defeated China, despite the fact that China was a military industrial bureaucratic superstate that vastly outnumbered the East India Company adventurers."


Mr. Elliot,

Sure they did, but comparing the Opium Wars to the Interstellar Wars is like comparing apples and oranges. Unlike the Interstellar Wars, Victoria wasn't sitting on the imperial throne in the Forbidden City after the Opium Wars. The Confederation beat the Ziru Sirka on the Rim and then somehow swallowed the Ziru Sirka whole. Other than a wedge-shaped slice of territory that never reaches a sector in depth, the Confederation takes over the Ziru Sika in its entirety from Vland to Terra.

"The same in India, the Mughal Empire was rotten too the core despite having vast man power. The British just slowly took over the old corridors of power. There were never more than 100,000 British in India - and they ruled it for 200 years. You wouldn't expect that from playing Command Decision!"

Again, apples and oranges - besides being bad history. The Mughals never controlled the entire subcontinent, no one ever had as India was more of a geopgraphical expression; like Europe, than the title of an empire. The British digested the subcontinent is nice little chunks. They knocked off some rajahs militarily, bought others off, and left others alone. British rule in India wasn't even unified until after the Sepoy revolt and even then the Raj consisted of three spearate 'presidencies'. The Terrans fell heir to nearly the entire Ziru Sirka, which is nothing like the conquest of India by Britain at all.

"But the Interstellar Wars is undeveloped territory. We simply don't know what went on because no one has really done any work on it."

My point exactly. The story of the IW period is the equivalent of 'common knowledge'; a collection of wooly-headed 'facts', propaganda, and 3500 year old lies that passes as the 'truth'. We still don't know what really happened.

"All we know is that the meson gun and jump 3 were significant."

No they weren't and that we do know. Jump3 and the meson gun were deployed rather late in the IW period; between the 8th and Nth Wars. Jump3 allowed the Confederation to mousetrap and destroy the Ziru Sirka's Central Fleet less than a sector from Terra. The meson gun helped too, but knocking off a fleet FOUR SECTORS from Vland doesn't automatically give you the keys to the kingdom.

Look at the timeline:

- 2408 Imperial: 1st Interstellar War begins
- 2235 Imperial: Nth Interstellar War begins (jump3 and MGs have been deployed)
- 2204 Imperial: Rule of Man begins.

Now look at the map. In -2235, the Vilani and Terrans are still fighting just a few subsectors away from Earth. In -2204, only 31 years later, a Terran admiral controls the former Ziru Sirka as Hiroshi I of the Rule of Man. Any explanations for that? Aside from 'it happened'?

"Sirs, I await your riposte."

And I await yours!


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

Erik Boielle wrote:

"Not really an expert, but has one considered that the Vilani Just Can't Fight?"


Mr. Boille,

It's been considered and rejected.

The Vilani fought a 2000 year long Consolidation War and hammered every known sophont species into the Ziru Sirka. This period was so awful that the Sky Raider's ancestors, the Loeskalth(sp), launched an STL generation ship across the Great Rift in an attempt to get away. After the War, the Vilani then enforced Vilani cultural norms all all those captive species.

Does that sound like a people who "just can't fight" to you?


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

Sigg Oddra wrote:

"Don't forget the other advantages TL12 has over TL11."


Mr. Oddra,

Do tell.

"A ship's computer 1 model higher gives your ships a plus 1 to hit and penetrate while your enemy suffers a minus 1 penalty. This has quite an effect on HG combat (I know, this is a TNE site). You also have lighter armour and nuclear dampers."

The computer bonus is a nice one. Armor takes 4% of hull volume per level installed instead of 6%.

Nuc dampers being to miake you 'fighter proof', but they are no match for factor-9 salvos. That three-launcher fighter turret on a needs a roll of 9 or better to get by your damper. Unfortunately, a TL11, 100dTon factor-8 missile bay only needs to throw a 3 or better.

TL12 gives you marginal increases in bay weaponry; the 100dTn missile bay improves from 8 to 9, the 50dTn missile bay from 7 to 8. 100dTn repulsors are boosted from 4 to 6, 100dTn PAs from 7 to 8, and the 50dtn plasma gun from 5 to 6. You do get a 50dTn fusuion gun though.

Turret weapons recieve no bonuses at TL12 over TL11.

All in all, a set of marginal increases that are no where near enough to swallow the Ziru Sirka whole.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

Stei'awtliyrl wrote:

"J3 vs J2 is a larger advantage than simply "how far behind the lines can we jump?" A fleet composed of J3 ships can move strategically 1.5X faster than a fleet of J2 ships." (snip of strategic benfits) Being half-again as fast as your opponent is a huge asset to any Admiral waging a strategic war over a large area."


Mr. Stei'awtliyrl,

Granted, jump3 does confer some nifty advantages. Have you also considered that they come with a price? Namely, another TEN PERCENT of your hull volume dedicated to fuel? Are you familiar with the reasoning behind battle riders? That because they needn't dedicate hull volume to jump drives and jump fuel, they can lick their weight in jump ships?

Also, TL12 does not confer any improvement in powerplants. You'll be using last year's fusion plant models; the same ones the Vilani are using, to power your strategically faster fleet.

You'll have a slightly better computer, marginally better weapons, armor at 2/3rds the volume of your opponent, and a jump drive that requires an additional ten percent of your hull to fuel. Whoopee!


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

Well, I'm not saying that the Jump increase was the superweapon that "broke the Vilani back". I'm merely saying that it gave a numerically much smaller Terran Navy a flexebility which allowed it to concentrate it's forces more efficiently on a strategic scale.

As been mentioned, the Terrans also had Meson guns, which again only provides an advantage, not an imperium-ending superweapon.

Then again, my interpretation of the Terran takeover of the Old Vilani Empire was less of a true conquest, and more of a "sea change". The Terrans defeated the Vilani Fleets, demoralized the Vilani Navy, and assumed control of an Empire already descending into the Long Night.

The names on the letterhead changed, but the rank-and-file faces in Imperial/Rule of Man government didn't. Joe Vilani, Middle Manager inside EveryVilaniPlanet's Imperial Building kept his job. His boss kept his job. The Working Bureaucracy really wasn't impacted by the Wars' outcome.

It sort of speaks to the extreme nature of Vilani social stagnation of the time. The Head of State was replaced by an alien Government and still nothing really changed.

 

[Whipsnade]

Stei'awtliyrl wrote:

"Then again, my interpretation of the Terran takeover of the Old Vilani Empire was less of a true conquest, and more of a 'sea change'."

"The names on the letterhead changed, but the rank-and-file faces in Imperial/Rule of Man government didn't."


Mr. Stei'awtliyrl,

Precisely. The Terrans didn't conquer the Ziru Sirka, they merely provided the Ziru Sirka with its last dynasty.

Here's another factoid from the Interstellar War period for everyone to mull over; Various governors in the Ziru Sirka's coreward territories were hiring and arming Vargr corsairs in order to play power politic games among themselves. Interesting no? The local Ziru Sirka big-wigs contact a previously unknown race that possesses jump drive and, instead of immediately launching a campaign to hammer that race into the empire as their ancestors had done during the Consolidation Wars, they use the new race for political reasons.

Mull over how First Contact between Vilani and Vargr went coreward and then think about how First Contact between Vilani and Terran would occur rimward...


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

Kind of like that old chestnut where China never really gets conquered because it absorbs it's conquerers.

 

[kafka47]

Larsen:

I have always played First Contact two ways IMTU.

The first was the one where I played a variation with the Vilani using the Kafers as mercs and have the First Imperium knowing of the Terran existance but unprepared to fight and hopes that alien mercs would slow the Terrans down. But, all it did was speed up the development of a true Jump Drive as opposed to inefficient Shutterwarp.

The second is one that I am know exploring with a small group of players and we are playing out the dynamics according to the canon discovery in 2100. The spoiler is that the Vilani have an incredible complex social structure model on India & the Aztec civilization (minus human sacriface) that the Terrans must dissect if they are to survive on Bernard's. It will then take place as researchers must go back to Ancient Persia to find the roots of the Vilani language and find out the ways we are not alone in the universe. Culminating in the drive toward the stars and the characters attempted prevention of a "traffic signal" incident at Barnard...

Which will be more fun. Time will tell...meanwhile, Jon will be coming out sometime with his take...

 

[Elliot]

Mr Larsen, I will mull over your more technical points for a future riposte. However, it seems we are all in agreement on one major point and that is the Terrans did not take over the Ziru Sirka by arms and men but stepped into a vacuum left by Vilani corruption.

Maybe its not that the Vilani were poor warriors (they weren't) but that the Terrans were damn good anthropologists and diplomats (something the Vilani clearly were not good at). This would tie in with Kafka's second scenario.

Perhaps this is how we can square the circle of disagreement that has emerged on this issue.

In anticipation of future continuation of the debate, may I thank you for the profitable nature of the discussion so far.

 

[Erik Boielle]

Now now, theres no need to paint our Terran compatriots lightly.

Obviously the terrans aggression and skill was just right to completely romp over any component of the vilani war machine that dares stand against them. Obviously the vilani so far had only faced the might of the Space Italians. In comparison with whom anyone looks like a mighty warrrior nation.

When faced with the Space Panzer Divisions of The Terrans *pelvic thrust*, their culture, having grown even softer through complacency was just not up to the job.

They may not be very good, but we've still got to be damn good to take them so completely!

 

[notagoodusername]

Erik,

Just a point - this board is open to minors as well as adults, so you may want to calm the language down a little.


Shane

 

[Erik Boielle]

Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
Erik,

Just a point - this board is open to minors as well as adults, so you may want to calm the language down a little.


Shane

Do you know I was expecting a language filter.

Can I keep the *Pelvic Thrust*?

Its quite graphic, but your modern popular music star does them quite alot, so I'm expect the youth is quite accustomed to them.