Noble Militaries

[Blue Ghost]

The Imperial Nobles in no way are shown to have military rank by virtue of being nobles.

They are shown to be in the military chain of command as civilian governors of imperial regions. That is, a sector duke is in the chain of command of all assets under the sector fleet (sector naval HQ), in the same way that a state governor is in the chain of command of a US National Guard unit... he's not in the unit, nor even the service (usually), but has authority to issue binding orders by virtue of his office (not his title).

For a modern US example of Title vs Office - Governor Knowles, former governor of Alaska, is entitled to the title "Governor" for the rest of his life, having completed his term of office. He can't use "Tony Knowles, Governor of Alaska" as that form combines title (Governor) with office (Governor of Alaska), and his etiquette people don't let him use "Governor Knowles of Alaska" as that form is used only for the current office holder. AKARNG personell still render him a salute, for his title, but don't take orders from him any more, because orders have to come from the office, not the title, even tho' the title is earned by election/appointment to that office.

Gov. Knowles is comparable to a typical honor noble in the 3I - rates the honor by title, has no authority because of no office.

Gov. Parnell of Alaska, current governor however, can give orders to AK NG troops and airmen, because he holds the office of Governor. He's akin to a sitting Baron of a world in the OTU. He can (and has) asked for active duty forces to be seconded to civil uses (specifically, MP's to assist state troopers on specific occasions), and the JBER commanding general did so... not because he had to, but because he found it to be of benefit to both the state and the nation, and could do so without significant compromise of his mission. (They assisted the troopers with a sobriety checkpoint on New Years.)

President Obama could countermand any such cooperation, if he had reason to, as could the Pentagon; likewise, the president could nationalize the NG forces, and take them out of Gubernatorial command (as was done in the 60's in the US South) - the equivalent would be the sector duke or his warantee giving explicit orders to ships or troops in the subsector fleet, or to colonial units on a baron's world.

Ah, but we're discussing the 3I, where nobility carries with it a bit more of a traditional role than just figure head. That's kind of what I'm getting at. Nobles were administrators of public and military (local) policy. A knight of one province may "make war" with another knight of another province in the middle ages on a whim (say, "I like your vineyards and think they should be long to me"), and given the autonomy given to worlds of the 3I one is left to speculate if something like that doesn't occur on occasion; i.e. "wow, your megacorporation has a plan for a new fangled device that'll cut a financial swatch in the Droyne Device-X department...think I'll organize a strike team to run a smash and grab operation on their corporate R&D so I can get in on the action...").

From that, to something more mundane like cracking down on a protest of Sir Jerry who just raised paper and e-storage taxes to fund some program. If Sir Jerry is part of the government, the depending on the government, Sir Jerry might or might not order his personal guard onto the street to bust some heads.

Remember, Hussein's Iraq, by the books, was a "republic". The fact that he set himself up as a dictator (or "king"), is beside the point. His word and actions were to be obeyed, or you were shot, or worse. He was, in spite of a parliament, the "archduke of Iraq", as it were. His sons, even though they were not in the military, were also nobles (vile as they were). They were subject to arrest, but got out of it, and because of incompetence, did not get involved in military matters (much anyway). If either one of them had served, then guaranteed they would have had sway in Iraq's army and air force.

It all depends on the will and ability (mostly ability) of the polity to enforce and put safeguards in the political structure. If they're half willing, then the power structure has more influence and sway over them, as opposed to "the people" / constituents having command and say over their leadership. I think that's the key issue for how much a noble can push the envelope from world to world

 

[rancke]

Ah, but we're discussing the 3I, where nobility carries with it a bit more of a traditional role than just figure head.

Third Imperium nobles aren't just figure heads, but that doesn't mean they are medieval nobles cut and pasted into the 57th Century either. They are closer to 18th Century British nobles, but still not a carbon copy.

High nobles have a built-in job and the authority to do it; honor nobles constitute a "labor pool" from which Imperial officials are drawn (the top spots in all Imperial organizations require a minimum noble rank); they're not forced to take those jobs, but many do, for a variety of reasons. Those honor nobles who have jobs have the authority to do those jobs; those who prefer to be idle have no job and thus no authority. And rank nobles are gifted commoners who get noble titles when they are promoted to a job that requires a noble title.

You propose that all nobles have the authority everywhere that is reserved for high nobles and even then restricted to the territory of each individual high noble. According to GT: Nobles this is not so. (If you don't accept Nobles as evidence there is simply very little evidence to tell one way or the other). But then, of course, your guess is only as good as anybody else's. All one can say that the two versions contradict each other and can not both be true in the same universe.)

That's kind of what I'm getting at. Nobles were administrators of public and military (local) policy. A knight of one province may "make war" with another knight of another province in the middle ages on a whim (say, "I like your vineyards and think they should be long to me"),

Not really. Some did that in defiance of custom and law when the King was too weak to interfere, but far more often they sued.

...and given the autonomy given to worlds of the 3I one is left to speculate if something like that doesn't occur on occasion; i.e. "wow, your megacorporation has a plan for a new fangled device that'll cut a financial swatch in the Droyne Device-X department...think I'll organize a strike team to run a smash and grab operation on their corporate R&D so I can get in on the action...").

That's illegal activity by corporate interests. I'm quite sure that it happens. But if there's an Imperial noble involved, it's in his capacity as captain of industry, not as a noble.

From that, to something more mundane like cracking down on a protest of Sir Jerry who just raised paper and e-storage taxes to fund some program. If Sir Jerry is part of the government, the depending on the government, Sir Jerry might or might not order his personal guard onto the street to bust some heads.

If he's part of the Imperial government then he isn't going to raise taxes. The Imperium taxes worlds, not individuals, and the lowest level of interstellar government in the Imperium is the duchy. Raising taxes of member worlds may or may not be one of the powers of a subsector duke (I can see arguments either way). If he can and if the member world objects, we're talking squadrons and armies, not household troops.

If he's part of a planetary government then he is (at least technically) not acting as an Imperial noble, and he definitely isn't acting on a world other than his own.

Remember, Hussein's Iraq, by the books, was a "republic". The fact that he set himself up as a dictator (or "king"), is beside the point. His word and actions were to be obeyed, or you were shot, or worse. He was, in spite of a parliament, the "archduke of Iraq", as it were. His sons, even though they were not in the military, were also nobles (vile as they were). They were subject to arrest, but got out of it, and because of incompetence, did not get involved in military matters (much anyway). If either one of them had served, then guaranteed they would have had sway in Iraq's army and air force.

Meanwhile, one of the few scraps of CT canon about nobles explicitly state that nobles are not exempt from the law. If any Imperial noble has a citizen of a member world shot, he can be arrested and charged with murder. My take is that he does have the priviledge of being tried in an Imperial court, so he's in no danger of being convicted of Dishonoring the Grand Pasha's Fetish or anything equally outlandish. But the more common crimes are crimes under Imperial law too.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think in a GURPS setting all of what you say may be true, but I think the classic 3I is a bit more abstract. Other than the legal ramification you mention, I think nobles might have any level of power, but it all depends on how the local planetary government is setup. He may be a dictator of a country, and have the power of life and death according to local custom.

More later, off to work.

 

[DangerousThing]

It doesn't work like that. Imperial nobles do have multiple titles. Norris, for example, has four (Duke of Regina, Count Aledon, Marquis of Regina, and Baron of Yori). But (unless the Imperial rules are radically different from those of the European nobility) he can't give them away or sell them. Nor does he get four votes in the Moot, just one. His oldest child will use one of them, so Seldrian will be addressed as 'Countess Aledon' as a courtesy, but she won't have a vote in the moot. The next in line might use 'Marquis of Regina' and the next in line again might use 'Baron of Yori' (or not, depending on how close the relationship was), but none of them would have a vote in the Moot; they wouldn't be peers.

According to GURPS Nobles it sometimes does. I believe it's on page 41. I don't have it up now, but a noble may abdicate one of his lessor titles to give it to his heir, assuming that the rules for that title doesn't disallow it.

 

[Barsanuphius]

Noble House military/regional defence commands

This is how I would build the Imperial Defense/War machine.

First the Imperium is quite vast. The Administration of such a huge empire is beyond the complexity of any know bureaucracy I can think of..with this said. in order to properly administer and defend the Imperium as we all know, the Imperium is divided into adminstrative districts at the highest level are the Archdutchies including the Sylean Archduke, the Emperor. Each of the these ArchDutchies would most likely have their own Military and Naval Academies to produce a standard in the high quality officers for the Imperial and house militaries. Next the Sector Dukes may or may not have simular academies unless all first level officer candidates are sent to the ArchDutchy academies. Therefore Commissions may only come from the emperor or his co-adminstrators (Archduke of Anteries, Vland, Terra etc.) This insures a great deal of loyalty to the emperor and the Imperium from the Cadre. Then the Officers most likely will at first anyway be assigned to fleets, and units in other regions of the Empire intermingled with crews and troopers not from the same "hometown" or Home State" as was the case in the US durring the American Civil War.

Furthermore, at the Sector, Sub-sector, and perhaps even regional/local level, recruiting and training facilities would be in place for enlisted and non-com crews and troopers.

Though most enlisted would most likely remain in a home unit. A certain percentage may be required of the local government/nobility to be trained and provided to the Dukes, Archdukes, Emperor's Guard or the Imperium's services. Just as the Taxation would also be sent. Conscripts and taxes.

To Illustrate my point. Baron Ralph von SumBuddy raises 15,000 enlisted troops and crew enlistees this year. He is required by Imperial Standards to send 20% to these enlistees to the services of his liege lord and the Emperor. So, 3000 are sent to his Count. Count Miguel is also required to send a percent say 20% again. His 6 barons each send him 3000 recruits totaling 18,000 he raises another 20,000 for all said 38,000. He then send his percent to his duke, 7600. Duke Shanash receives 7600 from his 20 counts and raises another 75,000 totaling 227,000 recruits. Out of these he has to send 25% to the Imperial forces and to His Imperial Majesty Strephon's guard of 56,750.

If this is at all practical I know it is not bit it is just my take. Each noble raises and keeps a certain number of solders and has a certain number he, she or it must funnel up to the next level of administration at the higher levels the intermingling creates a closer allignce to the Imperium than at local levels. Also at the high lords discretion especially the Emperor's, any local or mid level unit could be restationed or deployed somewhere other than at home.

In Example you could have the 1325th Regina mechanized Infantry Brigade Stationed on Spica. All the way across the Imperium because the Emperor may have needed to quell to potential rebellions at once, possible mutiny in Spinward Marches and Martial Law on Spica.

just my thoughts.

Joseph

 

[Enoki]

The problem with a "send troops" centralized military is the communications and movement times involved in it in Traveller due to jump distance and inability to send transmissions over vast distances.

That is, you can't raise troops in say, the Delphi region of Sylea and send them to the Spinward Marches. It takes several years in transit just for them to make that movement and that is at jump 5 or 6.

The empire would have to rely on locally raised units under the command of a loyal subordinate to the Emperor. This would more resemble the mid to late Roman empire as an example than some modern miltary or the Mongols where long distance movement of troops is possible.

So, whatever the model there is can be little real centralized military involved. I would think that there would be very big regional differences in equipment, orgainzaton, and use of the military too. How it is used in the Spinward Marches where there are small non-imperial and alien nations, the Zhodani, and a threat of major war to deal with would be different from core where the military is likely to be far more for show than go so to speak.

The ranked nobles would have far more power to do almost as they pleased in most matters military too I would suppose. Their remoteness from the central government would give them that power by default if not by law. I could see the emperor using money and equipment as essentailly bribes to keep them loyal too.

 

[Barsanuphius]

The problem with a "send troops" centralized military is the communications and movement times involved in it in Traveller due to jump distance and inability to send transmissions over vast distances.

That is, you can't raise troops in say, the Delphi region of Sylea and send them to the Spinward Marches. It takes several years in transit just for them to make that movement and that is at jump 5 or 6.

The empire would have to rely on locally raised units under the command of a loyal subordinate to the Emperor. This would more resemble the mid to late Roman empire as an example than some modern miltary or the Mongols where long distance movement of troops is possible.

So, whatever the model there is can be little real centralized military involved. I would think that there would be very big regional differences in equipment, orgainzaton, and use of the military too. How it is used in the Spinward Marches where there are small non-imperial and alien nations, the Zhodani, and a threat of major war to deal with would be different from core where the military is likely to be far more for show than go so to speak.

The ranked nobles would have far more power to do almost as they pleased in most matters military too I would suppose. Their remoteness from the central government would give them that power by default if not by law. I could see the emperor using money and equipment as essentailly bribes to keep them loyal too.

I wholly agree. I was using the Regina to Spica only as reference points of across the galaxy. I realized the travel time and logistics would be just immense for such a move, let alone that the troops sent out quite possibly of a previous generation than those which were ultimately deployed by the time the unit reached the other end of it's route.

Exaggeration wholly mine!

 

[Barsanuphius]

War on my fellow noble?

What keeps the Nobility from Waring on each other or from spiting off to form his or her one small Imperium...besides the Rebellion in Mega Traveller?
:devil:

 

[Dragoner]

What keeps the Nobility from Waring on each other or from spiting off to form his or her one small Imperium...besides the Rebellion in Mega Traveller?
:devil:

The military.

 

[mike wightman]

What keeps the Nobility from Waring on each other or from spiting off to form his or her one small Imperium...besides the Rebellion in Mega Traveller?
:devil:

Megacorporation dividend...

 

[aramis]

Travel times, using AOTI maps... it's about 25 months to cross the 3I from gateway to the marches by J4 ship. I've had PC's do capital to Regina in under 6 months with a 2J4 (MegaTraveller legal) design by crossing the rift via the Islands. At J4+, most of the map's "texture" is lost.

Now, J4 really isn't practical for moving troops... in MegaTraveller, J4 is 30% (5% drive, 25% fuel), but in other versions it's are least 45%, and that doesn't include PP matching.

So, troops either ship frozen or don't ship far - simply a matter of cost. Only way I see forces crossing more than one sector border is as huscarles from outside the domain of Sylea...

 

[jatay3]

I would think they would be like the Armsmen of Vorkosigan Saga. They would provide security and muscle. They would be limited by local and Imperial law, especially Imperial but those limitations may not extend to their own fiefs. Aside from drill teams(which would probably be the main purpose toward capital) they would often have specialists like food inspectors, forensics and so on. Many of their duties would be closer to police then soldiers.

On the frontier Huscarls would often be actual soldiers and some Nobles would prefer to actually lead their Huscarls to battle rather then enlisting in Imperial forces.

 

[jwmarsh1962@gmail.com]

IMTU I allowed the minor planetary nobility to have largely ceremonial guards at lower TL's. I must admit this was just an excuse to use my Civil War and Napoleonic miniatures to supplement my Martian Metals stash. But it was great fun to watch PC's repel a musket charge with a SMG.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I wrote a small piece of fiction involving Imperial Naval Infantry. Again, not m best work, but there's something there that I think would make a good foot note in a new rule set.

I know it's already been addressed elsewhere as has been mentioned. But I think an official article or section in the new T5 might be in order.

Just my take.

*EDIT*
Grr...wrong post for the wrong thread.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not just you, sir.

I wrote a small piece of fiction involving Imperial Naval Infantry. Again, not m best work, but there's something there that I think would make a good foot note in a new rule set.

I know it's already been addressed elsewhere as has been mentioned. But I think an official article or section in the new T5 might be in order.

Just my take.

I am with Citizen Ghost on that! I think T5 on the whole could use a bit more on the "How this works" in places, combat being one. And yeah, Imperial Naval Infantry sounds like where an ex-IN PC got Fighting-4. Just saying.

 

[jatay3]

I would think they would be like the Armsmen of Vorkosigan Saga. They would provide security and muscle. They would be limited by local and Imperial law, especially Imperial but those limitations may not extend to their own fiefs. Aside from drill teams(which would probably be the main purpose toward capital) they would often have specialists like food inspectors, forensics and so on. Many of their duties would be closer to police then soldiers.

On the frontier Huscarls would often be actual soldiers and some Nobles would prefer to actually lead their Huscarls to battle rather then enlisting in Imperial forces.

Another thing that they would maintain is cyberwarfare experts and "corporate samurai" of various kinds.

Nobles would probably have unofficial troops attached to their band. These would be specialists in things not precisely in accordance with imperial law and would thus not be huscarls per se. Some nobles would probably maintain assassins.

 

[Timerover51]

Having looked through this thread, one of the first things that struck me is aside from a couple of posts, no one really thought about what it would cost for an individual to raise, equip, and most importantly, sustain the operations of a military unit. My background includes that of an Army Quartermaster officer, as well as a military historian, and a few other things. A military unit is not cheap to run.

Assume that a noble wants to raise a battalion-size unit of 3 infantry companies, a heavy weapons company, and a headquarters unit, say a total of 800 men. However, he wants to be able to use it somewhere besides his immediate area, like to maybe take over a small population neighboring planet, or just maybe the planetary area next to him. He now needs a combat service support company, with a supply platoon, a maintenance platoon, probably a transport platoon, and a medical platoon. He also needs some sort of finance section to keep track of things like troops pay, supply purchases of food, fuel or power, ammunition, spare parts, and all of those other Quartermaster type items. After every pay day, he will need to figure maybe 1% of his troops are going to need some medical attention, and maybe incur some legal expenses. He needs a good size training area to keep his troops combat ready, and someone to act as opponents during the training. As his troops probably have other options for jobs, especially the technical types, he is going to have to pay some nice wages, and also maybe have a retirement or pension plan. He is going to need some form of insurance coverage for troops that are killed or severely injured during training and operations. The one post that mentioned costs used a figure of 3,000 Credits per man per month, which is probably low, but I will use it. For a unit of 1,000 men (3 infantry companies, a heavy weapons company, headquarters, and combat service support company), you have an operational cost of 3.6 million credits a year. This is not exactly an inexpensive operation, and if you commit to combat, those costs are going to at least double, besides needing a lot more support troops. Then there is the continuing costs for equipment, which is not factored into my operational cost.

Put simply, I do not see noble military units as a viable idea beyond a platoon-size security force, not military troops.

In 1945 the idea of a Marine officer commanding Army divisions was so freaky that not only was a replacement commander flown to Oki in days after the CG died and a Marine was senior, but the landings in Japan were segregated by service.

Roy Geiger was only a Major General, and was more of an aviator at that. Buckner was killed by Japanese artillery fire, and was a Lieutenant General. There were 4 Army divisions in the 10th Army, and only 2 Marine Divisions. Buckner's replacement was Joe Stilwell, a 4-star. When you add all of the supporting troops, the Army had about twice as many men on the island as the Marines.

By 1994 all general/flag officers were seen as plug and play.

So the US Navy would not mind having an Air Force general in operational command of the Pacific Fleet? The Air Force would not mind having a Marine General commanding the B-2 Stealth Bomber Wing? The Army would not mind having a Navy Admiral commanding the 82nd or 101st Airborne?

Edwin Hoyt in To The Marianas one volume of his history of the Island hopping campaign.

If one of my students used Edwin Hoyt as a reference source for a military history paper, I would fail him or her on the spot.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Speaking as one of the Peerage.

Well, timerover, this is why I love T5.

Count Ivor hault-Daarnulud (currently residing at Efate) pulls in just under your MCr 3.6 (3.12 to be exact) per year.

He has this income due to his Imperial Holdings because T5 CharGen gives a Noble a Land Grant of number of World Hexes (including 1 World Hex as a personal fief). These Hexes are assigned to certain Titles by a system of Trade Classifications. For each Hex that has TCs the Noble gains an annual income of Cr 10,000/TC and if a Hex has no TCs then it grants Cr 5,000 per year. I went through the numbers and got MCr 3.12, which is enough to start flipping small starships or high end smallcraft. So just out of his pocket change, not including any cool things he picked up Mustering Out. Which he did of course, dude has sick Terms, young he ain't. But that is Traveller for you, you want to be really skilled, well equipped and powerful? Okay, you hit 34 and start loving Personal Development Table. And of course you always get something like Edu +1 when you soooo desperately need End. :devil:

Now add into that T5 bringing back those lovely RUs. Then you get into somewhere that will make the micro-managing math nerds drool, how many RUs can a Count tap into? Well, he is the Director of Daarnulud Design Bureaux and that should bring in some portion of the System's RU right there. A shipyard is some serious infrastructure to have piece of. So, with the right contracts he can build some starships for the Imperium and keep a few for himself. Which is good since he has to fund a Lift Cavalry Squadron.

So, it isn't impossible, but it requires some Pocket Empires like dedication, which I do have.

Oh, and Mags is now in possession of company of TL-E troops in the form of the recently chartered Thornwood Security, LIC. But then I haven't actually run the numbers for Mags. Good thing he has a Patron as Court. Always handy that for a Noble.

Well, it is well past bedtime and I have some Uplink to get in before hitting the rack.

Laterness,
Craig.

EDIT: Forgot to ask, what's your beef with Edwin Hoyt? Never heard of the dude and you said "students" and that implies some sort of professional level instruction. Thanks. And now off to a couple more missions and then sleep. Then after that maybe some real work.

 

[Carlobrand]

...For a unit of 1,000 men (3 infantry companies, a heavy weapons company, headquarters, and combat service support company), you have an operational cost of 3.6 million credits a year. This is not exactly an inexpensive operation, and if you commit to combat, those costs are going to at least double, besides needing a lot more support troops. Then there is the continuing costs for equipment, which is not factored into my operational cost.

Put simply, I do not see noble military units as a viable idea beyond a platoon-size security force, not military troops.

Traveller hints at corporations, families and individuals with levels of wealth and power that would shock a modern multi-billionaire. Given the wealth hinted at regarding some of the megacorporation family owners, it's not inconceivable for a high noble to be wealthy enough to pay out Cr3.6 million annually for something he wanted. Modern billionaires could manage that, and they don't compare with the Tukeras and others. Now, there's no guarantee any given noble would be Tukera-wealthy, but it remains a distinct possibility.

The real question is whether he'd want to, when he could as easily equip and maintain a company and then hire mercs to flesh them out when needed. Duke Norris clearly prefers having his Huscarles, and the canon history suggests they were useful internally as well as against external threats. There might be a couple others out there with similar wealth and interests, or they might be content to put their fortune into intelligence-gathering and just hire on mercs when needed.

...So the US Navy would not mind having an Air Force general in operational command of the Pacific Fleet? The Air Force would not mind having a Marine General commanding the B-2 Stealth Bomber Wing? The Army would not mind having a Navy Admiral commanding the 82nd or 101st Airborne?.

This is a most puzzling remark. Issues involving coordination, supply, and tactical application of troops are not so dissimilar between services that I'd invalidate a Marine giving orders to Army units without more study. On the other hand, I don't think a Marine would know enough about bomber operation needs to effectively command a bomber wing, and I suspect an Air Force general has little training in the needs and tactical/strategic application of ships at sea.

In the WW-II era, there were clear differences between the preferred tactical styles of Marine and Army units that did lead to some problems with Marines commanding Army forces. I don't know whether the same is true today.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

(Caveat: the following applies to current US military only)

A Marine wouldn't command an Air Force unit, but he might head a joint command. That is the level at which the flag officers become "interchangeable" - the 4-star Combatant Commands and 1- & 2-star Joint Task Forces.

As far as costs, I wouldn't see a lower noble having a battalion, but perhaps someone on the order of a Count or Duke, possibly.