Noble Militaries

[Ishmael]

If I may suggest, we don't need to place most of our emphasis on the "conquered" part of the "Captive Government" description. The description uses the term "control" and control doesn't necessarily mean "planetary invasion". Remember, the description uses the term "colony" too.

As I've mentioned before, I'd change the wording of government type 6 and replace "captive" with 'colonial'. The word "captive" does not seem to be the best, most correct word to use here; it has specific meanings that limit its use it this context.
The term 'colonial' can cover both connotations related to colonies; controlled involuntarily such as British Raj over India, and voluntary colonies such as Guam. The term "colony" can be used to name 'captive' worlds as before, but it can also be used to name one of the many many colonies that Imperial worlds seem to scatter all over the place...even on worlds that already have populations on them.

Mao was a genocidal moron and power flows from many more places than the mouth of a gun. As you pointed out by referring to the current euro crisis, there are many more ways to be "controlled" and "captive" than having soldiers in the streets.

Military conquest would be overly expensive compared to other forms of coercion, eh?
Diplomacy and economics...THAT'S how its done. Armies are a last resort.

Vegan Polity joins the Third Imperium. After intense diplomatic and economic pressure, the Vegans are intimidated into accepting Imperial rule. Rim of Fire, SJG, 2000, p. 54.

 

[Blue Ghost]

So, what would be some sample military units that served under a lord of some kind?

Knight?
Baron?
Duke?

Other ranks I'm not aware of?

 

[sabredog]

Yup, yup, yup. Nobles IMTU tend to, when Baron or higher form their own personal guard of some kind or another. Nothing huge, a regiment at most and more likely a company or two, and its mainly as a show of support to the Emperor. They get subsidies for doing it from the Marines or Army budgets since they are also subject to call-up. Then they end up as support for the local Imperial units running gofer duties unless the doofus noble insists on being the Forlorn Hope or something. In such cases the Imperials are more than happy to let the local "Elite Dragoon Guard" take the lead. Everyone who survives get medals to brag about and the Imperials take less casualties - everyone's happy.

Also, Baron+ tends to get honorary promotions to fancy-sounding colonial units like the 34th Emperor's Dragoon Guards...which might be ceremonial more than anything, but helps as yet another way to cement the loyalty of the nobles far out on the frontier since they are also subject to call-up, and the farther you are from Earth, the more likely an Imperial Marines cadre will be attached with its own command staff to act as advisers and keep the local fancy-names up to snuff.

Below Baron, forget it - they might have a household bodyguard at squad strength at most, but it costs a lot of coin to field a real unit worth spit.

 

[Carlobrand]

So, what would be some sample military units that served under a lord of some kind?

Knight?
Baron?
Duke?

Other ranks I'm not aware of?

I would say it depends on:

1) what they can afford,

2) what they can get away with, and

3) what they plan to do with it.

Thus, no hard-and-fast rules. One count is satisfied with a bodyguard and enough men to guard the estate, another wants a full batallion with space transport. My guess is the Duke of Regina and his six marine batallions might be a bit alarmed if some rich opponent started assembling a division-size personal army. On the other hand, if the baron growing the army is a retired general and skilled mercenary commander with a long record of supporting Imperial causes, he's likely to run into a good deal less unofficial resistance to his acquisition of hardware.

 

[rancke]

Thus, no hard-and-fast rules. One count is satisfied with a bodyguard and enough men to guard the estate, another wants a full batallion with space transport. My guess is the Duke of Regina and his six marine batallions might be a bit alarmed if some rich opponent started assembling a division-size personal army.

He would probably start wondering why the baron wanted a division and how he paid for it. As for how much of a threat such a division would be to the duke, his huscarles are the least of the forces he commands. There's the Duchy of Regina Navy, the Duchy of Regina Army, the Duchy of Regina Marines, plus all the regular Imperial forces stationed in his duchy by the Emperor. Plus whatever planetary forces he can borrow from friendly member worlds. If the baron becomes a major threat, the duke can declare a state of emergency and invoke the mutual aid clause of the membership treaties, obliging the member worlds to furnish units.

[Note: The above is a mixture of canon and canon-compatible non-canon].


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I'd be more concerned about the Duke's intelligence network.

 

[rancke]

I'd be more concerned about the Duke's intelligence network.

You're right. They're potentially much more dangerous to the duke.


Hans

 

[Garyius2003]

Here is my problem with Noble units--cost. Assume an average trooper cost, post military, is 3k per month. That is low for a trained and loyal soldier, but assume the noble can offer other benefits such as housing access or family member employment.

A 50 man unit, for security and access control at just a few points along with a 10 man response squad on duty at most times, costs almost 2 mil per year prior to equipment. Assume 2.5 mil with amortized equipment costs for weapons, armor, air/rafts. Buy them combat armor and the response squad an Astrin, and your cost per employee, amortized equipment cost, and expended ammo/training costs are more like 3.5 mil a year, just for a platoon sized force.

Scaling up, a company (150ish) 10-12 million, a battalion will cost as much as buying a new 400ton cargo starship every two years. You will need one heck of a good reason for raising a noble unit larger than a reinforced platoon of household guards.

 

[Higgipedia]

You will need one heck of a good reason for raising a noble unit larger than a reinforced platoon of household guards.

Only if you pay retail prices.

Many nobles are investors in different industries. I would imagine that most families would have at least one person involved with the gun trade who gets the family huscarles a wholesale rate.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Did anyone stop to think that royal households have loads of money from which to draw upon in the form of Taxes? Not only do they have this, the Imperial government will most likely have a budget set asside for the protection of important nobles. I'm quite sure Queen Elizabeth doesn't pay for her bodyguards or for the military units charged for protecting her?

 

[rancke]

There's a whole column in GT:Nobles about huscarles. A few highlights: There are no Imperial laws against bodyguards, but huscarles have various duties and priveleges and are only permitted to high nobles. Every high noble gets a legal document setting forth the size of the huscarles unit he is allowed and the details can vary according to the Emperor's whim. However, they usually range from a company for high barons to a full division for archdukes. (The Imperial Guard is a full corps and is considered the Emperor's huscarles).

Huscarles can carry weapons that are forbidden by local law as long as they are on duty. By implication the bodyguards of Imperial honor and rank nobles are subject to local laws.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

That's interesting. I wonder what the CT version would look like.

 

[sabredog]

One of the JTAS issues (I think it was the "WAR!" issue that announced the 5th Frontier War) has an article and TOE of the Duke Of Regina's Own Huscarles. I remember because at the time I thought it an odd choice of words for an Imperial Noble's personal guard.

 

[rancke]

That's interesting. I wonder what the CT version would look like.

The CT version is a very small and far from comprehensive hodge-podge of facts gleaned from the article about the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

The CT version is a very small and far from comprehensive hodge-podge of facts gleaned from the article about the Duke of Regina's Own Huscarles.


Hans

Which I think is a good thing. I think someone a few years back mentioned that GT had more flavor than texture for the material presented. That is the GT books were more fleshed out in particulars than presenting basic gloss as per the LBBs, MT and T4/TNE material. This means that you can formulate something for your gaming group without having to check Traveller's many holy bibles for scripture on how X does Y and so forth.

Personally, I think a noble's military is pretty much limited to their political and financial pull. To me that means that a knight could muster a force that would outweigh some baron's planetary forces (personality depending). That's rich gaming and story material.

 

[rancke]

Which I think is a good thing. I think someone a few years back mentioned that GT had more flavor than texture for the material presented. That is the GT books were more fleshed out in particulars than presenting basic gloss as per the LBBs, MT and T4/TNE material. This means that you can formulate something for your gaming group without having to check Traveller's many holy bibles for scripture on how X does Y and so forth.

You can do that anyway. The only point to official material is to provide you with material so you don't have to. If you don't like the material, you just don't use it. If you like it, you're spared having to spend time and effort making it up for yourself. If the material is vague or non-existent, that benefit is lost.

Personally, I'd much rather have a thoughtful, comprehensive and self-consistent treatment on a subject collected in one place than a handful of often contradictory allusions scattered across half a dozen rulebooks, supplements, and adventures.

Personally, I think a noble's military is pretty much limited to their political and financial pull. To me that means that a knight could muster a force that would outweigh some baron's planetary forces (personality depending). That's rich gaming and story material.

I'm not so sure about that. The Imperium seems prone to doubling up on high noble titles. That is, the high baron of some low-population world is likely to also be the high marquis of some more populous neighboring world. So while in his capacity of Baron of Smallworld he may not be able to afford his company of huscarles, he can probably afford his battalion of marquisal huscarles as the Marquis of Adequateworld. Maybe even both. He probably wouldn't station them all on Smallworld, of course. Maybe just a platoon to show the flag and guard his manor house on Smallworld.


Hans

 

[Garyius2003]

So Major General (ret) Sir John Vdorrski is raised to noble status as Marquis Trin's Veil. He decides that in addition to local ground forces it would be a good idea to keep household troops. Although an army general, he realizes that the marine's use of the MEU reinforced battalion composite unit makes the most sense as a balance of being able to do many tasks, without costing as much as a brigade.

Battalion of combat arms troops, 90% with energy weapons, all with combat armor and grav belt add-ons. 24 million per year with 10 year amortization.

10 Astrins, 4 tanks, four Sunbeams, assorted g/carriers, 10 year am schedule, 33 million per year (slightly more the first 10 years as you will want to rotate out one for rebuild every few years and then use them as reserve, but this will balance out with decreased garrison buys the next 10 -20 years), cost per year 36 mil with manning.

Add in command and support troops, training grounds, so on, 65 million per year total.

Over 10 years, that is a new high port module or a rail line. Over the 50 years the Marquis expects to hold office, that is a rail network or a completely new highport complex. He will need one heck of a good reason to have a noble family MEU instead of relying on the local Imperial Army forces.

 

[Old_Dr_Skull]

If some of his property is in a real armpit of the galaxy: for example the rimward half of the Rhylanor subsector (around Vanejeen and Heroni) then having those troops and a beat up old liner to carry them around might make him the bad mammer-jammer on the block. There's no naval base in the near neighborhood, the population and tech levels are dismal. A battalion of guys with energy weapons is a huge stick there.

 

[rancke]

So Major General (ret) Sir John Vdorrski is raised to noble status as Marquis Trin's Veil.

Caveat: Most of what follows is my take on the ramifications of canon, not canon.

Assuming Sir John did something that warranted ennoblement, he would most likely be made Baron Vdorrski, and honor title that does not give him the right to raise huscarles. It probably will include a source of income sufficient to allow him to live in the style appropriate to an Imperial baron, most likely a stock portfolio, possibly a straight pension. As an Imperial baron, he is well placed to increase his fortune in various ways (investments and rewards for lending his good name to commercial enterprises). His son may well become Major General the Baron John Vdorrski II. The son or grandson may become an honor marquis.

If the Emperor needs to appoint a new high marquis, the Marquis of Hazel, for example, he'll want someone qualified for the job. It could be a commoner, but he's more likely to look to the honor nobles of the duchy (or close relatives of other high nobles in the sector or even outside the sector). Perhaps Baron Anuther, an honor noble whose ancestors has been accumulating private sources of income for a dozen generations. If he selects a commoner, it's going to be one with impressive personal qualities, but it's also likely to be one with an impressive private fortune. A billionaire from Trin, perhaps.

If he does appoint a relatively poor commoner, say a mere millionaire, he is likely to bestow enough stock to put him in the same league as his fellow high noble marquesses.

He decides that in addition to local ground forces it would be a good idea to keep household troops. Although an army general, he realizes that the marine's use of the MEU reinforced battalion composite unit makes the most sense as a balance of being able to do many tasks, without costing as much as a brigade.

Also, he only has permission for a battalion of huscarles.

... Add in command and support troops, training grounds, so on, 65 million per year total.

A high noble marquis is the social equivalent of a world emperor (one per world). It's not really unreasonable to assume he'd have resources in the same league too.

Over 10 years, that is a new high port module or a rail line. Over the 50 years the Marquis expects to hold office, that is a rail network or a completely new highport complex. He will need one heck of a good reason to have a noble family MEU instead of relying on the local Imperial Army forces.

Perhaps he does. Though it isn't really his job to build highports and rail networks. One is down to the SPA and the other is down to the locals.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

You can do that anyway. The only point to official material is to provide you with material so you don't have to. If you don't like the material, you just don't use it. If you like it, you're spared having to spend time and effort making it up for yourself. If the material is vague or non-existent, that benefit is lost.

Personally, I'd much rather have a thoughtful, comprehensive and self-consistent treatment on a subject collected in one place than a handful of often contradictory allusions scattered across half a dozen rulebooks, supplements, and adventures.



I'm not so sure about that. The Imperium seems prone to doubling up on high noble titles. That is, the high baron of some low-population world is likely to also be the high marquis of some more populous neighboring world. So while in his capacity of Baron of Smallworld he may not be able to afford his company of huscarles, he can probably afford his battalion of marquisal huscarles as the Marquis of Adequateworld. Maybe even both. He probably wouldn't station them all on Smallworld, of course. Maybe just a platoon to show the flag and guard his manor house on Smallworld.


Hans

That could be true, but if he's on the emperor's payroll anyway, then he might try to pull rank regardless because he doesn't have to pay for whatever operation he needs them for.

Imagine your players are on a Tukera liner serving as a military transport for a colonel and his regiment. Say they're standard infantry. Say the colonel's really unpopular among his troops and the world he's from. It doesn't matter why, people just hate him for the sake of this scenario. I think if there were a need or an emergency somewhere, and word of it got to the noble, then that noble might at first try to persuade the colonel to divert his regiment. If the colonel refused, then I could see the noble trying to pull rank, and I think this is where ego and popularity would come into play.

Regulations, official military regs, would dictate the colonel's authority is all that matters. But there may be some noble code or letter of office that would allow the noble to take charge, and take command from the colonel in times of need. And, since the Imperium is paying for it, he doesn't need to shell out his own cash.