Non-standard interstellar journy

[snrdg082102]

Evening all,

Can anyone with the FFE CT CD-ROM please do a search and supply the book and pages numbers that gives the time needed to refuel a ship by skimming a gas giant, landing on a world with liquid material that contains hydrogen, taking on refined fuel, amount of fuel that can be scooped at one time, and the time needed to run unrefined fuel through a purification plant?

The adventure in CT Alien Module appears to have a ship traveling from Tanga in the Gvurrdon Sector to the capital of the Zhodane Consulate in nearly a year. I have been able to plot a course that covers the 103 parsecs in 36 weeks by stopping in each system only long enough to travel from the jump exit 100D limit to the refueling point, fill the tanks, and then head towards the outbound jump point which is between 10 and 100 diameters from the planet. The trip from and to jump points and refueling would add time to the journey that the +/- 16.8 hours over the course of the journey probably won't compensate for.

I have found material in MT and TNE, some of which is in e-books for MT and TNE I have. Hopefully, this year I will be able to pick-up the material offered on FFE.

 

[Timerover51]

In Trillion Credit Squadron, the time taken for a ship to refuel from a Gas Giant is given at 7 turns, presumably High Guard combat turns of 20 minutes, so 140 minutes or 2 hours and 20 minutes for a streamlined ship. It also states that ships can transfer fuel in 2 turns, or 40 minutes. It would seem reasonable that this would be the refueling time using refined fuel at a starport.

 

[Vladika]

Hi Tom, hope you find this helpful.

From Don's Consolidated Errata:

WORLDS AND ADVENTURES (Book 3, 1981 edition)
Page 5, Gas Giants (clarification): This section notes that refueling in this fashion (skimming from a gas giant) generally requires a week. This should be considered to include travel time to and from the gas giant. The actual skimming procedure requires eight hours.

On the campaign level, a fleet either refuels in no time at all or in an entire week. Whether a fleet takes time to refuel or not depends on its refueling capability and the source of its fuel. Any ship may be refueled at a starport. Only streamlined and partially streamlined ships may refuel from gas giants. Only streamlined ships may refuel from planetary oceans or ice caps. - Trillion Credit Squadron p39.

The table shows zero time for Streamlined Ship regardless of fuel source. Partially streamlined ships one week at gas giants. Un-streamlined ships one week regardless of fuel source PROVIDED that at least 10% of total tankage is on carried small-craft or accompanying ships. Otherwise, NO refueling allowed.

 

[snrdg082102]

Thank you timerover51 and Vladika for coming to my aid concerning my questions about the alternate method of jump travel detailed in CT Book 2 Starships page 4.

Before getting to the summary of the material by you two I found some information about the non-standard jump routine in TNE. The core book on page 13 has a starship taking three days between jumps.

Back to summing up the information provided in your replies:

Gas Giant refueling:

1. Military craft that are streamlined or partially streamlined can skim a gas giant for unrefined fuel and fill the tanks in 2 hours and 20 minutes per Trillion Credit Squadron rules.

2. Fuel can be transferred ship to ship and probably starport/spaceport to ship in 40 minutes per Trillion Credit Squadron.

3. CT Book 3 errata indicates that gas giant refueling takes 8 hours. My guess is the refueling time is for civilian ships, but I maybe wrong too.

4. Taking on fuel from Class A or B starports takes, based Trillion Credit Squadron, takes 40 minutes.

Items that I am still trying to find out are:

1. How much unrefined product does a fuel scoop grab during a pass?
2. How much unrefined fuel can a fuel purification plant refine in one hour?
3. How long does refueling take when use water of ice caps?
4. How long does docking/landing and undocking/taking off fro a starport or spaceport take.

Using the TNE practice of 3 days between jumps appears to increase Gvurrdon's trip from Tanga to Zhodant to just over a year. Taking 2 days between jumps the time is just over eleven months.

Again thank you for the help.

 

[Timerover51]

From Mongoose Traveller comes the following, page 110.

One ton of fuel processors can convert 20 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day

Edit Note: I have pieced together some more information from Starter Traveller, The Traveller Book, and the two editions of High Guard. I will post it later today.

 

[McPerth]

From Mongoose Traveller comes the following, page 110.

One ton of fuel processors can convert 20 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day

Good point. All too often, in wilderness refueling, it takes more time to process the fuel than to skim it (at least when a GG is available).

Even though, as Alien Modules, even while having HG included (at least for CharGen), used Bk2 ship rules, and there the fuel processors didn't exist, just avoiding the modifier for using unrefined fuel to scout and military ships.

So, if the ship in the AM was a scout one, it had not the modifiers for usin unrefinedfuel, and the only time needed was that for approaching/leaving GG and skimming the fuel properly.

 

[Vladika]

This rule, if applied to HG2 is an utter FAIL!

One ton of fuel processors can convert 20 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day

At TL15 a fuel processor is 15dtonnes and at TL9 45dtonnes.

At TL15 a fuel processor would take 3.33 days to refine the 1000 dtonnes it is designed for while at TL9 1.11 days!

From HG2, though never actually stated, fuel processing must be "instantaneous".

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning timerover51,

From Mongoose Traveller comes the following, page 110.

One ton of fuel processors can convert 20 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day

A couple of spreadsheets I pulled for CT that calculated the purification process used 6 hour increments which appears to be taken from MT/TNE fuel purification plants which process 1 kiloliter of unrefined fuel every 6 hours.

Personally, I like being able to process 5 tons of fuel every 6 hours.

Edit Note: I have pieced together some more information from Starter Traveller, The Traveller Book, and the two editions of High Guard. I will post it later today.

Thank you very much.

 

[McPerth]

This rule, if applied to HG2 is an utter FAIL!

Using one version's rules on another one it's usually a bad idea...

In MT, the fuel processors volumen is based on a per Kl/6 hours formula...

Personally, I like being able to process 5 tons of fuel every 6 hours.

That will depend on if 20 dton/24 hours means it needs 24 hours to be purified, but the plant can work on 20 dton at once or it goes on purifying it at a rate of 20 dton/24 hours.

In the first case, it will take 24 hours to purify it, regardless if the plant is full or only a fraction of its capacity is used; in the second case, the lower quatity to purify, the quicker it would be.

AFAIK there's no clarification about it...

 

[rancke]

At TL15 a fuel processor is 15dtonnes and at TL9 45dtonnes.

At TL15 a fuel processor would take 3.33 days to refine the 1000 dtonnes it is designed for while at TL9 1.11 days!

And a TL8 fuel processor would do the job in 1.23 days. It seems obvious that a TL15 fuel processor would be an improvement on a TL8 fuel processor. I would interpret the statement about efficiency per ton of processor to apply to a TL8 processor and make other processors correspondingly more efficient. So a 15T TL15 processor would be as fast as a 50T TL8 processor and process the same amount of fuel in the same amount of time.

In other words:

One ton of TL8 fuel processors can convert 20 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.

One ton of TL9 fuel processors can convert 22.2 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.

One ton of TL10 fuel processors can convert 25 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.​

And so on up to

One ton of TL15 fuel processors can convert 66.7 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.
​

It remains to evaluate if an average ship having to spend 30 hours processing fuel after it has skimmed a full load is compatible with other known facts about the setting.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning McPerth,

I hope your holiday and the new year are going well.

Originally Posted by timerover51
From Mongoose Traveller comes the following, page 110.

One ton of fuel processors can convert 20 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day

Good point. All too often, in wilderness refueling, it takes more time to process the fuel than to skim it (at least when a GG is available).

The closest example I can think of in the real world is processing sea water or other contaminated water to potable water. One can scoop up more the dirty water than the purification plants can process.

Even though, as Alien Modules, even while having HG included (at least for CharGen), used Bk2 ship rules, and there the fuel processors didn't exist, just avoiding the modifier for using unrefined fuel to scout and military ships.

Book 2 hand waves a lot of items some of which later got picked up in other CT sources. MT and TNE got very detailed. T4 is something I have not looked at as closely as the other three, as for T5 the closest I have gotten is the project Donald McKinney had back a few years on ct-starships that he called HG3. He indicated that the project was the rough draft for T5.

GURPS Traveller, T-20, and Mongoose Traveller each have varying amounts of information.

Of course all the variants use some hand waving which causes differences that have supporters and detractors.

So, if the ship in the AM was a scout one, it had not the modifiers for usin unrefined fuel, and the only time needed was that for approaching/leaving GG and skimming the fuel properly.

CT Alien Module 3 provides the following details from the translation on pages 44 and 45.

Page 44 Column 1
: ..."we ambushed a strange starship with sleek lines and many streamlined turrets¹⁸.

Note 18 page 45: Vargr starships in this region tended to be unstreamlined cylinders. A sleek ship with streamlined turrets would be unusual.

Page 44 Column 2:

"Where we could jump perhaps seven ly²⁴, they could jump ten²⁵

Note 24 page 45: Seven ly: about two parsecs or jump-2
Note 25 page 45: Ten ly: about three parsecs or jump-3

Page 44 Column 2:
"They were an exploring ship, searching for goods and fortunes..."

I have checked through the CT Book 2, with my luck the text was in stealth mode, does not mention streamlining or cylinder hulls. What appears to have happened is the author combined the Book 2 data format with the descriptions from Book 5 High Guard.

Based on the ship using a J-3 drive and many streamlined turrets the closest ship I found in CT Alien Module 4 that matches is the Zhodani Escort detailed on pages 40 and 41.

My take on the Zhodani is that any ships that are exploring territory beyond their borders is equipped to either use unrefined fuel or be able to refine the fuel onboard.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Vladika]

And a TL8 fuel processor would do the job in 1.23 days. It seems obvious that a TL15 fuel processor would be an improvement on a TL8 fuel processor. I would interpret the statement about efficiency per ton of processor to apply to a TL8 processor and make other processors correspondingly more efficient. So a 15T TL15 processor would be as fast as a 50T TL8 processor and process the same amount of fuel in the same amount of time.

In other words:

One ton of TL8 fuel processors can convert 20 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.

One ton of TL9 fuel processors can convert 22.2 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.

One ton of TL10 fuel processors can convert 25 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.​

And so on up to

One ton of TL15 fuel processors can convert 66.7 tons of unrefined hydrogen into refined fuel per day.
​

It remains to evaluate if an average ship having to spend 30 hours processing fuel after it has skimmed a full load is compatible with other known facts about the setting.


Hans

I'd like to think that you have the right of it Hans.

I've never liked the idea that a later version of the rules replaces what went before. It often fails spectacularly as this points out. The worst so far is that according to T5 STL ships maneuver drives just stopped working outside of a gravity field!

No more deep space refueling I guess, in addition to not getting to ice comets or the Ort cloud...

For me it's always going to be CT where reason prevails in the OTU. :CoW:

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Vladika, McPerth, and Rancke,

Seems like I can't keep up with the replies to the replies.

Oops, thanks Vladika I translated the 1 ton of plant to mean 1 plant processes 20 tons of fuel per day. Unfortunately, I have not found in the books on my own how long in time the plant takes process the unrefined fuel. Once I was able to connect with the forums online I got the answer as being 1 ton every 6 hours regardless of TL.

I agree with you McPerth that importing rules from other variants frequently is a bad idea. TNE FF&S uses the same equation as MT. T4 FF&S page 85 states: All values are per m³ of fuel processed per six hours. I recall that 1 kiloliter equals 1 cubic meter and as usual I can't seem to find the page to verify my memory. ;-)

McPerth, I may be wrong in my conclusion based on not correctly understanding how the purification process works. While in the Navy when the submarines and tender I served on where at sea we had to purify sea water to potable water. On nuclear powered boats the water needed more purification for use in the reactor. Regardless of which take of water was needed the potable water that came out could be used since it was filling the storage tanks. Based on my understanding a 1 ton Mongoose purification plant is purifying unrefined fuel at a rate of 20 /24 = 0.833333 tons per hour. After 6 hours the plant has processed 5 tons and in 12 hours 10 tons of refined fuel would be available for use.

I agree with you Rancke on the higher TL plants being more efficient, unfortunately I am not following the progression. My math skills seem to have left town, hopefully nothing else has followed.

Drat just checked my inbox via my ISP's web email and I see a bunch of replies, which means I am really falling behind.

Forget the drat part I'm only one behind which is Vladika's reply to Rancke, aka Hans.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again Vladika,

I'd like to think that you have the right of it Hans.

I've never liked the idea that a later version of the rules replaces what went before. It often fails spectacularly as this points out. The worst so far is that according to T5 STL ships maneuver drives just stopped working outside of a gravity field!

No more deep space refueling I guess, in addition to not getting to ice comets or the Ort cloud...

For me it's always going to be CT where reason prevails in the OTU. :CoW:

Another Traveller product moves up my wish list of things to get after I pay off a creditor.;-)

I mentioned in an earlier post that Donald McKinney ran a project titled HG3 on ct-starships on Yahoo which tried to incorporate viable material introduced by other CT products, the collected errata, and MT. I added my two credits or so to the project and somewhere during the project he mentioned that HG3 was also being massaged for incorporation to T5.

Looking over the notes I have for HG3 the maneuver drive didn't stop working just so inefficient that the trips further out took forever.

Getting the CD-ROMs from FFE include CT, MT, TNE, T4, and now T5 are on my wish list for sure.

 

[Vladika]

Hi Tom (You are always so polite. I could learn a lesson here.)

HG3 on ct-starships on Yahoo

Do you have the link for that?

Looking over the notes I have for HG3 the maneuver drive didn't stop working just so inefficient that the trips further out took forever.

And when you don't have enough Power Plant fuel for the necessary life support (or the trip), does it really matter?

Best regards,

Michael

 

[atpollard]

The Traveller Book (page 51) tells us that 'skimming' will fill the tanks with unrefined fuel in "approximately eight hours" and that pumping water will fill the tanks with unrefined fuel in "approximately four hours"
Thus the scoops and pumps on a ship are adequate to fill the tanks in 8 hours (skimming) or 4 hours (pumping).

High Guard 1980 (page 36) tells us that a TL 15 Fuel Purification Plant requires 15 tons per 1000 tons of fuel.

I think that High Guard 1980 will need to be based upon the amount of purification plant capacity needed to keep up with the fuel pumps (4 hours) to allow the ship to pump refined fuel directly into the tanks and avoid issues like how do you draw unrefined fuel out of the tank, refine it and pump it back into the same tank without recontaminating it.

So I read it as:
15 dTons of TL 15 Purifier will process 1000 dTons of unrefined fuel in 4 hours.
Dividing by 15.
1 dTon of TL 15 Purifier will process 66.6 dTons of unrefined fuel in 4 hours.
Divide by 4.
1 dTon of TL 15 Purifier will process 16.7 dTons of unrefined per hour.

1 dTon of TL 14 Purifier will process 12.5 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 13 Purifier will process 10 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 12 Purifier will process 8.3 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 11 Purifier will process 7.1 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 10 Purifier will process 6.2 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 9 Purifier will process 5.5 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 8 Purifier will process 5 dTons of unrefined per hour.

 

[McPerth]

I recall that 1 kiloliter equals 1 cubic meter and as usual I can't seem to find the page to verify my memory. ;-)

You recall right here.

McPerth, I may be wrong in my conclusion based on not correctly understanding how the purification process works. While in the Navy when the submarines and tender I served on where at sea we had to purify sea water to potable water. On nuclear powered boats the water needed more purification for use in the reactor. Regardless of which take of water was needed the potable water that came out could be used since it was filling the storage tanks. Based on my understanding a 1 ton Mongoose purification plant is purifying unrefined fuel at a rate of 20 /24 = 0.833333 tons per hour. After 6 hours the plant has processed 5 tons and in 12 hours 10 tons of refined fuel would be available for use.

Yes, that's one possibility, the purifier works like a pump with filters, where X quantity goes per second, so 60X per minute and 3600X per hour.

But there's also the possibility that the purifiers work like a centrifugator, where matter takes X time to separate its elements, regardless of the quentity you put on it (most times there are several containers, and it takes the same time regardless being just one container full or all of them), with a maximum capacity to be centrifugated at once.

As (AFAIK) traveller does not specify it, both assumptions can be right. In MT is told that if you have less than the required purifiers, it takes longer to purify it, but the example given only says if you want to purify double purifiers capacity, it takes twice time, not specifying about fractional capacities or overcapacity to shorten the time...

 

[aramis]

Looking at Sup 5: LCC...

For a partially streamlined ship of 60KTd with 32 KTd of fuel...
hazards per skimming run: 1d - Pilot_Skill
Each hazard is assigned to a deck. If the deck is hit once, 10Td fuel capacity lost; twice, 150Td capacity lost; 3+, 400Td Capacity lost. '

Further, 2d + Hazard_Number – Pilot_Skill is thrown for 14+ to avoid a drive failure. A natural 2 is a catastrophic failure

Drive failure recovery: 2d + Engineer_Skill for 10+ to save the ship. Again, a natural 2 is a catastrophic failure.​

Not very portable a set of rules, but it's canon.

 

[snrdg082102]

Late afternoon PST Vladika,

Hi Tom (You are always so polite. I could learn a lesson here.)

Great I have once more fell short of the stereotypical submarine sailor, I hope they don't come looking foe me.;-)

Thank you for the positive comment and I'll blame my parents for my manners. Of course I do have some bad days.

Do you have the link for that?

Here is the link to the group: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ct-starships/info

Of course I cannot confirm if the topic thread is still there since I haven't figured out how to do a search to find something there. HG3 appears to have been done in 2008.

And when you don't have enough Power Plant fuel for the necessary life support (or the trip), does it really matter?

Best regards,

Michael

Without consulting the rules more thoroughly I'll say no.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[snrdg082102]

Thank you atpollard for the clarification, my brain appears to have taken a vacation.

The Traveller Book (page 51) tells us that 'skimming' will fill the tanks with unrefined fuel in "approximately eight hours" and that pumping water will fill the tanks with unrefined fuel in "approximately four hours"
Thus the scoops and pumps on a ship are adequate to fill the tanks in 8 hours (skimming) or 4 hours (pumping).

High Guard 1980 (page 36) tells us that a TL 15 Fuel Purification Plant requires 15 tons per 1000 tons of fuel.

I think that High Guard 1980 will need to be based upon the amount of purification plant capacity needed to keep up with the fuel pumps (4 hours) to allow the ship to pump refined fuel directly into the tanks and avoid issues like how do you draw unrefined fuel out of the tank, refine it and pump it back into the same tank without recontaminating it.

So I read it as:
15 dTons of TL 15 Purifier will process 1000 dTons of unrefined fuel in 4 hours.
Dividing by 15.
1 dTon of TL 15 Purifier will process 66.6 dTons of unrefined fuel in 4 hours.
Divide by 4.
1 dTon of TL 15 Purifier will process 16.7 dTons of unrefined per hour.

1 dTon of TL 14 Purifier will process 12.5 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 13 Purifier will process 10 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 12 Purifier will process 8.3 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 11 Purifier will process 7.1 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 10 Purifier will process 6.2 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 9 Purifier will process 5.5 dTons of unrefined per hour.
1 dTon of TL 8 Purifier will process 5 dTons of unrefined per hour.