Non-standard interstellar journy

[snrdg082102]

You recall right here.

At least recalling 1 kl = 1 m³ shows that my mind hasn't totally shutdown for the winter.

Yes, that's one possibility, the purifier works like a pump with filters, where X quantity goes per second, so 60X per minute and 3600X per hour.

BUt there's also the possibility that the purifiers work like a centrifugator, where matter takes X time to separate its elements, regardless of the quentity you put on it (most times there are several containers, and it takes the same time regardless being just one container full or all of them), with a maximum capacity to be centrifugated at once.

Well at least I was heading in the right direction, but it looks like I'm travelling on a different train. I hadn't considered any other methods but what I had experience with.

As (AFAIK) traveller does not specify it, both assumptions can be right. In MT is told that if you have less tan the required purifiers, it takes longer to purify it, but the example given only says if you want to purify doublé purifiers capacity, it takes twice time, not specifying about fractional capacities or overcapacity to shorten the time...

Joe D. Fugate Sr. published, according to Donald McKinney and I second, the best example of using the MT design system in the Travellers' Digest #13. Donald got permission from both the author and DGP license holder to do errata on the article which can be found at http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/pdfs/MegaTravellerStarshipDesignExample.pdf.

Looking at the design fuel tankage is 320,000 kl which matches the number of fuel purification units installed per page 83 notes underthe Fuel Purification Plant table in MT Referee's Manual the processing unrefined to fill the tanks takes 6 hours. If I install 160,000 units the time to process 320,000 kl of fuel takes 12 hours.

Thanks for the new material.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello aramis,

Looking at Sup 5: LCC...

For a partially streamlined ship of 60KTd with 32 KTd of fuel...
hazards per skimming run: 1d - Pilot_Skill
Each hazard is assigned to a deck. If the deck is hit once, 10Td fuel capacity lost; twice, 150Td capacity lost; 3+, 400Td Capacity lost. '

Further, 2d + Hazard_Number – Pilot_Skill is thrown for 14+ to avoid a drive failure. A natural 2 is a catastrophic failure

Drive failure recovery: 2d + Engineer_Skill for 10+ to save the ship. Again, a natural 2 is a catastrophic failure.​

Not very portable a set of rules, but it's canon.

Is the above actually from Supplement 5 or is it an attempt to use MT's Universal Task Profile Format in CT?

I've checked through Supplement 5 and can't seem to find the material. If possible could you please provide the page or pages so I can find it.

To be honest I haven't really used MT Universal Task Profile Format what is shown above does not match the details found in the MT Referee's Manual.
I'm still going over the format and I am not even going to try to write one now. Maybe later if I remember why I tried to figure out the system.

 

[Vladika]

Is the above actually from Supplement 5 or is it an attempt to use MT's Universal Task Profile Format in CT?

As aramis points out: Not very portable a set of rules, but it's canon.

I've checked through Supplement 5 and can't seem to find the material. If possible could you please provide the page or pages so I can find it.

It isn't in TCS.

 

[Vladika]

Is the above actually from Supplement 5 or is it an attempt to use MT's Universal Task Profile Format in CT?

As aramis points out:

Not very portable a set of rules, but it's canon.

I've checked through Supplement 5 and can't seem to find the material. If possible could you please provide the page or pages so I can find it.

It isn't in TCS.

 

[aramis]

Hello aramis,



Is the above actually from Supplement 5 or is it an attempt to use MT's Universal Task Profile Format in CT?

I've checked through Supplement 5 and can't seem to find the material. If possible could you please provide the page or pages so I can find it.

To be honest I haven't really used MT Universal Task Profile Format what is shown above does not match the details found in the MT Referee's Manual.
I'm still going over the format and I am not even going to try to write one now. Maybe later if I remember why I tried to figure out the system.

Supplement 5: Lightning Class Cruisers, pages 42-43. Paraphrased from.

You're confusing it with Adventure 5: Trillion Credit Squadron.

None of it is in MT terms. The concept of the crit-fail was not introduced to traveller in MT (which uses the terms exceptional failure & mishap).

 

[Duke Craig]

Fuel Purification Machinery - The Principles

BUt there's also the possibility that the purifiers work like a centrifugator, where matter takes X time to separate its elements, regardless of the quentity you put on it (most times there are several containers, and it takes the same time regardless being just one container full or all of them), with a maximum capacity to be centrifugated at once.

I suspect (from high school chemistry) that the fuel purification machinery worked more like a mass spectrometer.
1. In a vacuum, atoms of fuel are ionised (perhaps by applying heat, maybe waste heat from the fusion power plant);
2. Ions are accelerated;
3. A magnetic field is applied to the ions;
4. Heavier ions are deflected less while lighter ions are deflected more;
5. The lighter ions (Hydrogen and its isotopes) are sent to the fuel tanks or fuel cells;
6. The impurities are collected and stored (perhaps for use elsewhere).


What sort of chemicals are there in the unrefined fuel?
Water – H2O
Heavy Water from Deuterium –D2O. i.e. hydrogen in deuterium has a proton and a neutron (heavy hydrogen). Deuterium has been found in Jupiter’s Atmosphere.
Tritium – tritiated water T2O which is slightly radioactive. Tritium may be present.
NH3 ammonia
CO2 carbon dioxide
Others such as Sulphur compounds…

The Oxygen, Carbon and the Nitrogen are impurities as the actual fuel of the fusion power plant is the Hydrogen.
So, the fuel purification system actually removes the oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, sulphur and others.

Presumably, the oxygen, nitrogen are used in the atmospheric systems of the life support. Perhaps others are collected in storage bottles which are periodically replaced.


Thanks for reading. Enjoy!

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Vladika and aramis,

I am not sure how either of you figured that I was looking at Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron. I looked at my copy of FFE 002 Supplements 1-13 The Classic Supplements, Supplement 5 Lighting Class Cruisers Copyright 1980 6th printing trying to figure out what or where to find the information presented in

Looking at Sup 5: LCC...

For a partially streamlined ship of 60KTd with 32 KTd of fuel...
hazards per skimming run: 1d - Pilot Skill
Each hazard is assigned to a deck. If the deck is hit once, 10Td fuel capacity lost; twice, 150Td capacity lost; 3+, 400Td Capacity lost. '

Further, 2d + Hazard Number – Pilot Skill is thrown for 14+ to avoid a drive failure. A natural 2 is a catastrophic failure

Drive failure recovery: 2d + Engineer Skill for 10+ to save the ship. Again, a natural 2 is a catastrophic failure.​

​

As usual my ability to find the information at the time failed, I think I may have found the information which I believe is a condensed form for the Refuelling section on pages 42 and 43 detailing Emergency Refuelling.

I am not familiar with the crit-fail format that you used, however the formatting reminded me of the task system used in MT and why I asked.

Not very portable a set of rules, but it's canon.

I'm not sure what you a getting at about not being portable, which is probably due to being an old retired submarine sailor who is slightly out of touch. ;-)

Thanks for the help and maybe I figure the whole thing out.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Duke Craig,

Thank you for the new information and I think I will go lay down now and maybe my brain will stop aching. ;-)

I suspect (from high school chemistry) that the fuel purification machinery worked more like a mass spectrometer.
1. In a vacuum, atoms of fuel are ionised (perhaps by applying heat, maybe waste heat from the fusion power plant);
2. Ions are accelerated;
3. A magnetic field is applied to the ions;
4. Heavier ions are deflected less while lighter ions are deflected more;
5. The lighter ions (Hydrogen and its isotopes) are sent to the fuel tanks or fuel cells;
6. The impurities are collected and stored (perhaps for use elsewhere).


What sort of chemicals are there in the unrefined fuel?
Water – H2O
Heavy Water from Deuterium –D2O. i.e. hydrogen in deuterium has a proton and a neutron (heavy hydrogen). Deuterium has been found in Jupiter’s Atmosphere.
Tritium – tritiated water T2O which is slightly radioactive. Tritium may be present.
NH3 ammonia
CO2 carbon dioxide
Others such as Sulphur compounds…

The Oxygen, Carbon and the Nitrogen are impurities as the actual fuel of the fusion power plant is the Hydrogen.
So, the fuel purification system actually removes the oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, sulphur and others.

Presumably, the oxygen, nitrogen are used in the atmospheric systems of the life support. Perhaps others are collected in storage bottles which are periodically replaced.


Thanks for reading. Enjoy!

I enjoyed the reading, now I have to let the information settle a bit.

Have a good one

 

[Timerover51]

If you are separating hydrogen/deuterium/tritium from oxygen in water, the simplest and fastest way to do it is electrolyze it. As you have a fusion plant on the processing ship, power is not a problem. What you do with the waste oxygen depends on where you are. If on a planet, then it can either be vented to the atmosphere or pressurized and stored in back-up oxygen tanks for use while in Jump Space. If in an asteroid belt, you might be able to sell the oxygen to the Belter population.

Also, per High Guard, both editions, 16 hours should be devoted to drive maintenance after each jump. That can be done while proceeding to a star port or gas giant for refueling.

 

[Vladika]

Evening Vladika and aramis,
I am not sure how either of you figured that I was looking at Adventure 5 Trillion Credit Squadron. I looked at my copy of FFE 002 Supplements 1-13 The Classic Supplements, Supplement 5 Lighting Class Cruisers Copyright 1980 6th printing trying to figure out what or where to find the information presented in

You mentioned Supplement 5

Hello aramis,
Is the above actually from Supplement 5 or is it an attempt to use MT's Universal Task Profile Format in CT?

In my case when you further talked about the UTP I, erroneously, assumed you were using TCS/HG as the source. Supplement 5 Lighting Class Cruisers only came boxed with the game and as suck was/is pretty rare. With the pdf from FFE I guess it isn't so rare anymore though.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning timerover51,

If you are separating hydrogen/deuterium/tritium from oxygen in water, the simplest and fastest way to do it is electrolyze it. As you have a fusion plant on the processing ship, power is not a problem. What you do with the waste oxygen depends on where you are. If on a planet, then it can either be vented to the atmosphere or pressurized and stored in back-up oxygen tanks for use while in Jump Space. If in an asteroid belt, you might be able to sell the oxygen to the Belter population.

I think I read something about unrefined fuel being separated into hydrogen and liquid oxygen, unfortunately I'm not sure if it was Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, Traveller The New Era, or GURPS Traveller. I'm fairly sure I didn't read about separating unrefined fuel into hydrogen and liquid oxygen in Mongoose Traveller since I did my searches using my e-book copies. I haven't even checked my T20 material to see what that variant has on the topic of interstellar, interplanetary, and refueling.

Also, per High Guard, both editions, 16 hours should be devoted to drive maintenance after each jump. That can be done while proceeding to a star port or gas giant for refueling.

Okay, so far the minimum recommended time in between jumps using appears to be 16 hours to perform maintenance when using the non-standard interstellar travel profile:

Transit time from the inbound 100 Diameter jump point + Drive Maintenance 16 hours + Refueling + Transit time to the outbound 100 or 10 Diameter Limit jump point.

Transit time from the inbound jump point depends on the 100 diameter limit for the plotted destination.

Maintenance time: 16 hours

Refueling time = Taking on fuel + fuel purification time

Taking on fuel:
Refined fuel: approximately 40 minutes

Unrefined fuel:
Skimming GG upper atmosphere: 2 hours 20 minutes military, 8 to 10 hours non-military based on fuel scoop capacity (20% of hull tonnage/hour) + fuel purification (1 ton/6 hours)

Ocean: 4 hours based on Time needed to land from orbit + fuel scoop capacity (20% of hull tonnage/hour) + fuel purification (1 ton/6 hours) + Time needed to return to orbit

Ice mining:
Ice cap: 9 hours based on Time needed to land from orbit + time to melt the ice + fuel scoop capacity (20% of hull tonnage/hour) + fuel purification (1 ton/6 hours) + Time needed to return to orbit

Moon/Asteroid/Comet: Time needed to land or match orbit + time to melt the ice + fuel scoop capacity (20% of hull tonnage/hour) + fuel purification (1 ton/6 hours) + Time needed to return to orbit

Transit time to the outbound jump point depends on the 100 or 10 diameter limit from the point of departure point.

Drat, I misplaced the document I had listing the references, hopefully the document reappears so they can be provided.

I still have located the document.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Vladika,

Thank you for the clarification. Unfortunately, a few hours sleep didn't help in figuring out the comment of "not very portable a set of rules" means.

You mentioned Supplement 5

Actual aramis mentioned Supplement 5 which as we all agree is for the Lightning Class Cruiser. Of course I have swapped Adventure and Supplement a couple of times.

In my case when you further talked about the UTP I, erroneously, assumed you were using TCS/HG as the source. Supplement 5 Lighting Class Cruisers only came boxed with the game and as suck was/is pretty rare. With the pdf from FFE I guess it isn't so rare anymore though.

My reference to the MT UTP came up because the crit-fail format had a similar look and feel.

I purchased the 8 FFE Classic Traveller and the 2 FFE Alien Module softcover books before the PDF versions came out. They filled in the holes I had in my original books and related material. Now I have on my wish list purchasing the five CD-ROMs so I can retire my hard copies and possibly improve my chances of easily finding the material I'm looking for.

To be honest though, the hard copies probably will not be retired and my luck at finding what I'm looking will stay the same since Murphy, the web and computer gremlins like me.;-)

 

[Vladika]

To be honest though, the hard copies probably will not be retired and my luck at finding what I'm looking will stay the same since Murphy, the web and computer gremlins like me.;-)

You too? And I thought they all lived at my house.:devil:

 

[McPerth]

I suspect (from high school chemistry) that the fuel purification machinery worked more like a mass spectrometer.
1. In a vacuum, atoms of fuel are ionised (perhaps by applying heat, maybe waste heat from the fusion power plant);
2. Ions are accelerated;
3. A magnetic field is applied to the ions;
4. Heavier ions are deflected less while lighter ions are deflected more;
5. The lighter ions (Hydrogen and its isotopes) are sent to the fuel tanks or fuel cells;
6. The impurities are collected and stored (perhaps for use elsewhere).

(...)

Thanks for reading. Enjoy!

Thanks to you for posting, interesting reading.

Now its effects in the time to purify fuel: will that be done like a pump (X units per seccond, so time being only dependent of units and capacity) or like the centrifugators I told about (you need X time per batch, so time will be depending on how many batches you need, each one taking a minimum time increment, and having more purifiers only allows batches to be larger)?

 

[snrdg082102]

You too? And I thought they all lived at my house.:devil:

Yes, Vladika at my house too, of course I have mentioned the other non-Traveller gaming material, books, music CDs, computer programs, etc.

Good thing I spent many years on submarines.;-)

 

[Duke Craig]

To find X?

Firstly, thanks to Marc Miller, Dave Nilsen, Frank Chadwick and others that worked on TNE and preceding versions for building the framework that makes this argument possible.
I hope this post makes sense to you the reader.

Now its effects in the time to purify fuel: will that be done like a pump (X units per seccond, so time being only dependent of units and capacity) or like the centrifugators I told about (you need X time per batch, so time will be depending on how many batches you need, each one taking a minimum time increment, and having more purifiers only allows batches to be larger)?

To find "X"?

I think by "batches" that you mean kL of fuel (liq hydrogen) per MW of power?

Incidently, "centrifugators" is as good a name for the fuel purification machinery as any...nice!

At TL 15, fuel purification machinery purifies around 10 liters of fuel (liquid hydrogen) per 1 MW of power per second.


It is a fairly simple calculation using TNE FF&S or Brilliant Lances to check that this is the case.
For example:

From Brilliant Lances pg 28
The Donosev-Class Survey Ship has fuel purification machinery (3.6 MW), 46.5hours to refine 5580 kL (398.6 tons)

46.5 (hrs) /6 (hrs) = 7.75 (per 6 hours)
(this is the number of six hour periods to purify the tanks)

5580 (kl) /7.75 (/6hours) = 720 (kl/6 hours)
(this is the fuel purified per six hours)

720 (kl/6hours) /3.6 (MW) =200 (kl/MW/6hours)
(this is the fuel purified per MW of power)

200 (kl/MW/6hours) /21600 (secs/6 hours) = 0.00925 (kl/MW/sec)
(this is the volume of fuel purified per MW per second)

Thus "X" is 10 liters per MW per second.


I have put the units (bold) in brackets so you can see the divisors. Finally, I can post (have done) a more rigorous proof if anyone is interested using a scientific method applying Gibb's free energy to the process which incidentally gives the same result.

Kudos to Dave Nilsen (et al) when he (they) sat down to do this in the early 90s!

Thanks for reading, Enjoy!

 

[atpollard]

Thus "X" is 10 liters per MW per second.

That was fun to read, and Thank You for the effort.

If I could make a request, some versions of the rules don't use MW or EP for the starship design and are more volume driven.
Would it be possible to get that same calculation solved for liters of fuel per liters of purifier per second?

 

[Duke Craig]

Job for mathematician/chemist (short contract, non standard)

Would it be possible to get that same calculation solved for liters of fuel per liters of purifier per second?

Thanks atpollard for the question. I’m not sure if I could do that for a volume driven system because I use the TNE system which provides the detail level that I prefer. Enjoy!

I haven’t read Mongoose or GURPS Traveller (other than a few adventures or modules) or T20 Trav because those systems seem a little too …umm generic for an old grognard gearhead like me. Even T4 which I have completely read and thoroughly enjoyed is a bit too “vanilla” after TNE.

I’d have to second guess those systems based on the volumes described in TNE. I’m not too sure if that would work because it seems to me that lower tech systems are larger and actually purify more fuel per second and consume more power than the higher tech systems which are smaller and more efficient.

Perhaps even a bit of handwavium or Fudge traveller is a good strategy (as long as you know why) by respective GMs?

It’s a good question but I may have to leave it to another mathematician or chemist that has read those systems… Anyone?

Thanks for reading.

 

[atpollard]

Thanks atpollard for the question. I’m not sure if I could do that for a volume driven system because I use the TNE system which provides the detail level that I prefer. Enjoy!

Back on post 16, I used Classic Traveller High Guard to come up with:

1 dTon of TL 15 Purifier will process 16.7 dTons of unrefined per hour.

Which translates to
14 kl of TL 15 Purifier will process 234 kl of unrefined per hour
1 kl of TL 15 Purifier will process 16.7 kl of unrefined per hour
1 kl of TL 15 Purifier will process 4.6 liters of unrefined per second

or rounding off and rearranging to match your results:

[Thus "X" is 10 liters per MW per second.]
Thus "X" is 5 liters per [kl of purifier] per second.
or "X" is 70 liters per [dTon of purifier] per second.

I was wondering how that Classic Traveller value compared to FF&S.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Duke Craig and atpollard,

I'm adding my thanks to atpollard's for the primer of how to calculate fuel processing time.

I have been trying to recreate the Zhodani 600-ton Escort described on pp. 40-41 of Alien Module 4. Using Andrea Vallance's High Guard Shipyard V. 2.0.0.13 for HG 2 I come up with slightly different numbers for cargo. Part of the reason for this is that the Zhodani 600-ton Escort uses Book 2 drives and propulsion system. When I created and Excel Spreadsheet for Book 2 the only number I couldn't match was the price after discount. I think I know where that number went off the tracks, but with my luck I'll still be in error.

Over on the topic: Fuel purification for drop, collapsible, and demountable tanks there was mentioned the Gazelle Close Escort in conjunction with the disposable/drop L-Hyd tank. So far I found information on the Gazelle in JTAS 4 pp. 14-21, Supplement 7 pp. 30-35, and Supplement 9 p. 17. The JTAS 4 article indicates that the Gazelle described was designed using Book 2 to and Book 5. The problem is that I'm not sure if the design elements are from HG1 or HG2.

By digging through Book 5 High Guard 1979 to check for the material JTAS 4 indicated from High Guard, I stumbled across this reference on page 32

Fuel Purification Plant: Unrefined fuel can be refined on board ship using this installation. Such a plant can process one ton of gas in 1 minute (or one ton of water in ten minutes), and masses 50 tons. Cost: Cr 200,000. This installation is available at any tech level 8 industrial world. Mass decreases five tone per tech level, and cost decreases Cr 10,000 per tech level higher.

Book 5 High Guard 1980 pp. 27 and 36 as far as I can tell do not indicate how much fuel is processed in any time units. However one purification pant at the tonnage indicated processes 1,000 tons of fuel. However, the table on HG 1980 p. 36 appears to follow verbiage from 1979 with the exception of the processing times.

o: My brain just went AWOL and I don't have a clue where I was going with this beyond the point of finding some defunct information on fuel refining time. Hopefully when my brain returns I'll be back.

My apologies

No my brain hasn't returned yet, however I just found the two new posts. Maybe the information I got from HG 1979 might be something to work from?