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Not a flame, just a friendly discussion of T20's very unorthodox armor system

apoc527

SOC-12
This post is actually two separate thoughts I had while being bored in class this morning.

The first part is about Why T20 Armor Also Adds to AC. Armor giving a bonus to AC is something that took me a while to "accept" in D&D. The reason I accept it is that it works fine for low tech combat. I think that the system breaks down a little at the higher tech levels in Traveller. The best example is that of a Fusion or Plasma gun. These guns don't care that someone is wearing Cloth or even Combat Armor. To me, the weapon should be fired as a "ranged touch attack." The target's armor has nothing to do with how hard it is to hit, since this weapon is going to burn through whatever pathetic excuse for armor they happen to be wearing. This is true to a lesser extent with all high tech projectile weapons- you should have to simply hit your target, and then let the weapon's damage code worry about the Damaged Reducing effects of T20 armor.

My solution? Simple, simply say that all high tech weapons ignore a certain amount of Armor Bonus to AC only (ie, they don't act like real armor piercing ammunition, unless you actually have AP ammo). As it is, I can't see anyone ever using anything but AP ammo. An example would be that a standard Rifle might have a natural "AP" rating of 4. It would ignore up to 4 points of AC due to armor. It would NOT however, reduce the AR of the armor for purposes of dealing Lifeblood damage. Keep in mind, this is nothing more than a discussion based off thoughts in class. I'm not out to say that T20 did it wrong or flame it.

------

The second part deals with the actual damage codes. I think we can all agree that it's likely that T20 will be compared to other Traveller rules sets that are out there. The only other one I have any real experience with is the GURPS system (since much of the earlier stuff was before my time as a roleplayer). Obviously, we don't want GURPS style realism and the slow downs that such rules bring. However, WITHOUT actually playtesting these (I'm just running the math), it seems that T20 isn't as "realistic" as perhaps it should be.

Here's the example. Let's take a normal Rifle (1d12 damage, if I'm not mistaken) and a normal human male, unarmored. He has a Con, and hence Lifeblood score, of 10 (maybe 11). Now then, I guess it really depends on what situations you would allow free critical hits, or even a coup de grace on. If we set the man (who is a convicted Bad Guy) on a firing line and execute him, and DON'T allow any free criticals or coup de grace's, we have a 25% chance of disabling him, and a slightly smaller chance of actually dropping him to negative Lifeblood. This, by itself, is slightly silly. However, as I just realized, the situation isn't nearly as silly if you allow automatic criticals against such targets (or even a coup de grace). I'm curious, how do guys deal with "common sense" situations like these in T20 (or any d20 game)?

In actual combat, the situation becomes so much more vague that it really is no longer a problem. I am tempted to make a house rule that states that aimed shots (aim for a round or something) do extra damage, maybe a +2 or even +1 die. This way, snipers might actually be able to kill their marks with a single shot WITHOUT making funky Sniper PrC's (which you can do, if you like that sort of thing).

Anyway, what do people think of these thoughts? Are they justified? Does armor really make that big a difference in whether or not most guys get "hit" (define a hit as being "attack roll was greater than or equal to the AC of the target)?
 
One thing to realize with T20 combat... unconsciousness will come quick, especially to low level characters. Initial damage goes straight to Stamina, with NO reduction from armor. Armor only reduces lifeblood damage. One of my players in my imminent campaign has that Con of 10. He's an 8th level Navy officer. The classes he took all gave a D6 per level for Stamina. I think he barely breaks 30 stamina total. I am cringing just thinking of him in a shootout. If he gets shot at, he's not going to last long at all.
 
In a shoot out, his stamina won't matter much - he will be lying on the floor in a pool of his life's blood.

When hit by clubs, brickbats, fists, rubber bulets etc - his stamina is going to be the deciding factor - but even then, 30 is going to last for a while.

Basically 8th level characters are fairly "tough" in modern terms - even desk jockeys. But bullets still work.

Aside - If someone is firing a very aimed shot (ie sniper rather than a combat shot) I would tend to allow them to accept a big neg - for a crit (ie can head shoot if they want). 2d12 straight to con will ruin your whole day.
 
Question 1) Why armor adds to AC

Answer) during the playtest we tried just about a bizillion different ways of doing Lifeblood/Stamina. In addition to the half dozen the design team presented over several months, we playtesters had a half dozen more systems we proposed (ergo 1 bizillion equals about 12). The final consensus was the system we have. More than anything it was to keep the core system compatable with the main d20. With the system as described, you can choose to skip the Lifeblood entirely, and Stamina/AC becomes exactly like D&D hit points/AC. Lifeblood is a completely separate module that you can use or not.

The feeling was that there are "penetrating hits" and "non-penetrating hits" The AC bonus makes a potential hit into a non-penetrating hit. The AR reduction marks the degree to which a penetrating hit penetrates.

Question 2) Firing Squad
--observation 1: you have a bunch of guys in a firing squad for a reason, to make sure the guy is good and dead, you can't always count on that with 1 shot.
--observation 2: Russians execute by putting a pistol to the back of the head: clearly a coup de grace/auto critical. You only need one shooter tht way.
--observation 3: Snipers: there's a Sniper feat in the Feats chapter that lets you get an auto-crit for a shot from an unobserved location. You do't need a funky sniper class, just take the feat.
 
Originally posted by DrSkull:
--observation 3: Snipers: there's a Sniper feat in the Feats chapter that lets you get an auto-crit for a shot from an unobserved location. You do't need a funky sniper class, just take the feat.
Were I to do such a class, it would be more of a "Recon" variant on Army or Marine. What you DO with that stealth is up to your feat selection: Sniper, Forward Obs, or Intel...

As for the Sniper Feat and Firing Squads, I'd certainly allow the feat to apply in such situations, since being tied up and blindfolded is pretty much as good as "unaware" for such purposes...
 
Originally posted by apoc527:
This post is actually two separate thoughts I had while being bored in class this morning.
I have the same problem at work :)

Anyway, you can always just drop the armour adds to AC side of things and stick with armour reduces damage.
The thing I really like about d20 (and indeed T20!) is that it is so modular; you can chop and change rules very easily.
 
Question 2) Firing Squad
--observation 1: you have a bunch of guys in a firing squad for a reason, to make sure the guy is good and dead, you can't always count on that with 1 shot.
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Actually, I thought the firing squad had a bunch of folks in it so no one would know if they were the one who actually killed the bloke or not. Some firing squads actually give blanks to all but 2 of the shooters. Just a little FYI, not trying to be a pain...
 
Originally posted by Eric Anderson:
Actually, I thought the firing squad had a bunch of folks in it so no one would know if they were the one who actually killed the bloke or not. Some firing squads actually give blanks to all but 2 of the shooters. Just a little FYI, not trying to be a pain...
Depends on the time period and how innured to death (and killing) the typical firing squad candidate (the firers, not the target) is likely to be.

We have, however, successfully wandered off topic a bit...
 
Originally posted by GypsyComet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eric Anderson:
[qb]Actually, I thought the firing squad had a bunch of folks in it so no one would know if they were the one who actually killed the bloke or not. Some firing squads actually give blanks to all but 2 of the shooters. Just a little FYI, not trying to be a pain...
Depends on the time period and how innured to death (and killing) the typical firing squad candidate (the firers, not the target) is likely to be.
QB]</font>[/QUOTE]And how good they are at aiming their weapons, and how motivated they are to be precise. There are plenty of cases (3rd world militia, revolutionaries executing the power elite, ethnic cleansing squads etc.) where automatic weapons fire still left survivors.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm thinking that I'll probably use the rules as written, at least until it becomes painfully obvious that minor modifications need to be made. Frankly, the extra detail that allowing guns to ignore some amount of Armor Bonus to AC would create isn't worth the headache ("oh wait, you DID hit, I forgot about the -2 to AC from a rifle...")

However, I still say that for lasers or PGMP's (especially plasma guns), that something should be taken into consideration. Maybe the best way to do that is to give it an inherent Attack bonus, but then it would be too easy to hit anyone. I'm not really sure what the answer is to this question.

The only other option to is to ditch bonus to AC from armor all together, and introduce a class-based "Defense" bonus to AC a la Wheel of Time, Arsenal (from Perpetrated Press- GREAT BOOK for fantasy magic firearms), or Star Wars.
 
Idle curiosity from a non-T20 person*: How well/badly would simply dropping the Armour derived component from AC work in T20? So armour has no advantage in helping you avoid being hit, but still soaks damage via it's Armour Rating.

*Clarification: I play, and run, D&D 3e and have run a couple of sessions of CoC d20, but whilst I like 3e, I'm not a convert to d20 and still prefer BRP CoC, and my CT/MT/T4 hybrid for Trav... (I did buy the T20 Traveller's Handbook and I am impressed with Hunter and Martin's work.)
 
Originally posted by Gallowglass:
Idle curiosity from a non-T20 person*: How well/badly would simply dropping the Armour derived component from AC work in T20? So armour has no advantage in helping you avoid being hit, but still soaks damage via it's Armour Rating.
In a nutshell, loads. It would be like removing the armour bonus from AC in D&D and putting back (a vague guess based on the dangerousness of the weapons) 3 or 4 points of DR. HIts would occur waaay more often, almost to the point of the hit roll being a formality.

A though on Defense that replaces AC is to keep Defense score low, and start AC off at 12 + Dex. Combat Classes Increase Defense at a rate equalt to Rogue BAB, and non-coms at Academic BAB.

For these purposes Combat classes = Army, Barbarian, Marine, Mercenary, Rogue, Scout

Numbers:

Defense system:

10 Dex

Lvl 5 Marine Def 14
Lvl 10 Marine Def 17
Lvl 15 Marine Def 19

Lvl 5 Academic Def 13
Lvl 10 Academic Def 14
Lvl 15 Academic Def 15

Dex affects = +1 Def per 2 pts Dex over 10.
So, Lvl 10 Marine Dex 16 = Def 20

AC System, in cloth armour:

10 Dex

Lvl 5 Marine Def 16
Lvl 10 Marine Def 16
Lvl 15 Marine Def 16

Lvl 5 Academic Def 16
Lvl 10 Academic Def 16
Lvl 15 Academic Def 16

Dex affects = +1 Def per 2 pts Dex over 10.
So, Lvl 10 Marine Dex 16 = Def 19

PC Example:

Our Lvl 7 ex-Marine PC wears a Flak Jacket most of the time, with Dex 17, so has AC 17. With this he has AC 18. Not a massive difference.

This does, however, make survival without armour possible 'cause you stand a chance of not getting hit (As long as you have some Dex). It does kinda penalise non-combat characters slightly, but based on the fact that most attack bonuses are quite low (my PCs mostly have around +6 or +7) and modifiers for range, movement and cover put the target number up it makes people take cover and be smart.

One idea that springs to mind: add a "Defense Training" Feat similar to "Martial Training" but for Defense? Put it in place of dodge.

Another idea: Apply armour check penalties to Defense - get slowed down by cofining armour (if it can reduce your speed form 9m to 6m, it sure as hell slow you down!)

Alternate: All classes have the same Defense advance. Not too keen, though - there is a definite talent to defensive movement.

Shane
(still searching for the perfect non-cinematic defense system)
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Simply genius...Bravo Shane! (and the heretic shills in the crowd cheer, wave banners, and whistle loudly)... ;)
Oh suuure...just because's been here longer, HE get's the credit. LOL. J/k. If you look, I suggested the same thing in my post, but I was assuming people knew what I was talking about. Shane ran the numbers (a fine job of it, I might add) and he has proven my earlier suspicions, that adding somesort of Def bonus to classes wouldn't change the game much (except make it a bit more "logical and/or realistic").

Personally, I like the idea and will *probably* use it in my T20 games. Like I said earlier, I don't have a problem with D&D's abstract armor system simply because in medieval times, it seems to work just fine. Once you get to guns, though, it does mess with stuff.

By the way, Fading Suns d20 has a straight +1 to AC for every 3 character levels, but I don't like that as much as a real progression based off class (and there are plenty of examples of those...I'll post the options in this thread when I have time).
 
Originally posted by apoc527:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Simply genius...Bravo Shane! (and the heretic shills in the crowd cheer, wave banners, and whistle loudly)... ;)
Oh suuure...just because's been here longer, HE get's the credit. LOL. J/k.</font>[/QUOTE]Erm, you know you've actually been here longer than me apoc...

:)

I'm looking forward to your comments on Defense in T20, as the AC part of the system is one of the few sticking points I have with it...

Shane
(who is hot... damn hot! must turn heating down...)
 
Originally posted by Shane Mclean:
]Erm, you know you've actually been here longer than me apoc...

:)

I'm looking forward to your comments on Defense in T20, as the AC part of the system is one of the few sticking points I have with it...
Oh. Yea. <grin> Well in that case, nevermind. I haven't done the AC stuff yet, but I posted a huge message about armor and weapons in T20, that I think is kind of cool.
 
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