Numbered Fleet

[Hans_vermeylen]

From my reading of 'GT: Behind the claw', I got those numbers:

• Chronor, Querion, Darrian, Sword Worlds and District 268: no numbered fleet, those subsectors are mostly non imperial
• Jewell: 212th
• Regina: 213th
• Aramis: 214th
• Vilis: 193rd
• Lanth: ???
• Rhylanor: ???
• Lunion: 43rd
• Mora: 73rd
• 5 Sisters: 208th
• Glisten: 100th
• Trin Veil 207th

Lanth and Rhylanor anyone? Are there sources for other sectors? Thanks.

 

[The Oz]

According to the maps in SMC, it was (at the start of the FFW):

125th at Jewell
193rd at Efate
1st at Regina
23rd in Vilis subsector
212th at Rhylanor
213th in Lunion subsector
214th in District 268

No numbered fleets mentioned anywhere else.

During the war only two fleets are shown reinforcing the Imperials:

Corridor Fleet entering at Rhylanor in early 1108.
100th Fleet first seen at Lanth in early 1109.

Some text in SMC has some differences of placement at the start of the war, but most of the story supports the map placements. 100th Fleet is said to be "newly formed" (doesn't say formed from what) in late 1108, with the first operations being the relief of Lanth in 1109.

 

[Whipsnade]

Hans,

Forget about BtC. That book is a canonical trainwreck. There are some rather good ideas and plot hooks in it, but next to no canonical continuity on a huge range of issues.

The real fleet numbers are in MT's Rebellion Sourcebook.

You find a few others, which generally jibe with the sourcebook, in CT's Spinward Marches Campaign.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Forget about BtC. That book is a canonical trainwreck. There are some rather good ideas and plot hooks in it, but next to no canonical continuity on a huge range of issues.

The real fleet numbers are in MT's Rebellion Sourcebook.

You find a few others, which generally jibe with the sourcebook, in CT's Spinward Marches Campaign.

The fleet assignments in RbS are post-5FW. There were some reassignments when the war was over. I think all the ones in BtC are correct for after the war.

I don't have SMC with me, but IIRC the 212th was stationed in Rhylanor at the start. The ones in Mora and Trin are never mentioned. The 214th would have been stationed in Glisten at the beginning of the war.

The 1st is the 1st Provisional, a temporary navy, not the 1st (That has been in Core since the Year Dot).

My theory about the 100th (and it's just a theory) is that some of the Imperium's 320 fleets are 'laid up', i.e. are just a HQ and a few training ships. When needed, they are reactivated, squadrons transferred to them, and away they go. The 100th was one of these fleets. After the war it was allowed to stay active (and some other fleet deactivated instead).


Hans

 

[Hyphen]

Dear Folks -

Bill wrote:

Hans,

Forget about BtC. That book is a canonical trainwreck.

I know that it's been mentioned (by MJB, I think) that the mistake was that the first draft was published, not the post-playtest (corrected) version.

Has the corrected version ever been made available?

 

[Whipsnade]

The fleet assignments in RbS are post-5FW. There were some reassignments when the war was over. I think all the ones in BtC are correct for after the war.

Hans,

So the 214th was shifted from Glisten/District 268 all the way to Aramis? Why would the fleet that was occupying the trailing half of the defeated Sword Worlds Confederation at the end of the war be sent packing to a new operational region two subsectors away after the war? Wouldn't it still be needed in so-to-be Border Worlds Confederation?

I think the Imperium's numbered fleets are used more like the USN's numbered fleets; the number is associated with a certain region and so, while the 'fleet' never changes, the ships assigned to it are in a constant flux.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

I know that it's been mentioned (by MJB, I think) that the mistake was that the first draft was published, not the post-playtest (corrected) version.

Hyphen,

Which, of course, begs the question as to why the submitted draft was so poorly written from a canonical standpoint in the first place. The only answers to that question aren't pretty:

1) The authors didn't have all the canonical materials required to write a sourcebook about the most detailed sector in Traveller.

2)The authors had all the canonical materials and decided not to use them.

Missing a UWP number here, flubbing a stellar type there, and getting various dates wrong is to be expected. There's quite a bit of canonical material to review and some of it doesn't fit together easily. Making wholesale changes in items like the history and conduct of the Fifth Frontier War is something else entirely however.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Vargas]

I look forward to the Marches sourcebook for MongTrav with some trepidation based on the BtC experience. Perhaps I'll be happily surprised.

 

[rancke]

So the 214th was shifted from Glisten/District 268 all the way to Aramis? Why would the fleet that was occupying the trailing half of the defeated Sword Worlds Confederation at the end of the war be sent packing to a new operational region two subsectors away after the war? Wouldn't it still be needed in so-to-be Border Worlds Confederation?

The 43rd Fleet was stationed in Lunion after the war. I don't see any problem with the IN shuffling their fleets around once in a while. And with all the ships and squadrons that was moved around during the war, there could be good reasons. Maybe the 214th wound up being just the right composition for what was needed in Aramis.

And if there is anything dodgy about it, the blame falls on the writers of Rebellion Sourcebook, not the writers of BtC.

Incidentally, check out Intervention Force and Peacekeeping Force in Sword Worlds.

I think the Imperium's numbered fleets are used more like the USN's numbered fleets; the number is associated with a certain region and so, while the 'fleet' never changes, the ships assigned to it are in a constant flux.

The available evidence does not support that theory.



Hans

 

[Hemdian]

IMTU fleets are "operational units of deployment", an administrative construct with staff officers and mobile support infrastructure. Squadrons, with good corps d'espirit, move about as required but when coordinated activity is called for you need a fleet. Attach an admiral and one or more squadrons and away you go. These fleet structures are scattered about Imperial space but they aren't really tied to a specific location. So the 214th was probably stationed at Glisten for dozens of years, and if the 5FW hadn't happened maybe it would have stayed, or been reassigned to the Five Sisters subsector. This style of tightly-bound squadrons and loosely-bound fleets without a specific locational tie is the impression I gained from the 5FW boardgame. Where units did have a specific locational tie they were not numbered, they were named.

As for the 214th moving to Aramis after the war, that would make the GT book "Glisten" in error. It describes the Glisten-based fleet as always having been the 100th. I think it merely follows BtC and BtC was 'wrong'. Actually, GT is acknowledged as a variant to the OTU anyway. So if you play GT use all of BtC information, otherwise only use those bits that don't contradict OTU canon.

Regards PLST

 

[mbrinkhues]

For me the biggest question regarding BtC is not "does it match old canon" but "does it make more sense than the older material"

If it makes more sense than the CT variant of the Marches I would use it in the unlikely case I'll ever go back there to play Traveller.

 

[rancke]

As for the 214th moving to Aramis after the war, that would make the GT book "Glisten" in error. It describes the Glisten-based fleet as always having been the 100th. I think it merely follows BtC and BtC was 'wrong'.

A quick browse through Glisten fails to turn up a reference that says the 100th has been there always. On p. 24, OTOH, it says that it was established in 1108. Can you provide a quote?

Incidentally, in The Outrim Frontier, my writeup of the region in the Year 400 for JTAS Online, I mention that the 125th is stationed in the subsector that later became known as Glisten.

Actually, GT is acknowledged as a variant to the OTU anyway.

No, it's an alternate universe. The difference is that events that predates the ''Change Point'', the point when the two universes diverged, are common to both.

So if you play GT use all of BtC information, otherwise only use those bits that don't contradict OTU canon.

You can use whatever suits you best for your game. It's only if you like your TU to be compatible with canon that it becomes an issue.


Hans

 

[Hemdian]

A quick browse through Glisten fails to turn up a reference that says the 100th has been there always. On p. 24, OTOH, it says that it was established in 1108. Can you provide a quote?

Ah, I was mis-reading the bit on p18 that implies the naval base was built prior to the 3FW, and the base has grown since the establishment of the 100th Fleet. On the other hand p24 does place this at 1108, not after the 5FW, and it also states that the 100th has not yet seen combat. That last contradicts the SMC p11 that also mentions the 100th Fleet's formation in 1108 ... in Lanth where it saw off the SW Gram Fleet.

Regards PLST

 

[Butch Clor]

Operational Fleets 5FW

In my opinon and universe the 1st Provisional Fleet is the force assembled after the outbreak of the 5FW. 1stPvFleet is made up of Squadrons held in reserve for emergencies at Depot Deneb. This includes Active and Reserve(laid up) squadrons which are activated and deployed as needed. The active Squadrons are those units which routinely take the part of Enemy forces during training operations.
In my universe the 1stPvF was the heavy hitter which broke the back of the Zhodani forces at Rhylanor and later liberated the Jewel worlds.
1stPvF's make up is overly large: 2 BattleShip Squadrons, 2 Battlerider Squadrons, 3 Battle Cruiser Squadrons, 2 Heavy and 5 Light Cruiser Squadrons as well as S Special Recon Squadron (J-6 M-3), and 2 additional Destroyer Flotillas each with 3 x 12 Ship Destroyer Squadrons and a Light Cruiser Flagship. Of course this does not include the massive service ans support Flotilla attached to the fleet.
P.S.: In my universe the Imperial Navy began building a Naval Depot at Moran, Mora Subsector in 1116.

Live Well Butch