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CT Only: Starships & Starport A's & TL

Better goods when a specific need is felt - such as the manufacture and maintenance of starships.

I agree that the Ref can do whatever he likes. I agree that the game supports this by saying the Ref can customize worlds to his story needs. And, I agree that vague mentions of imports can be used to handwave TL 15 starships built on TL 7 worlds.

All of those are good rules.



But, looking at the rules as written...why do you think the drive letters are on the tech chart if not to limit their construction with low TL than indicated? Why else would they be there--multiple entries for the drives on different TL's?

Why wouldn't the list just have something that indicates Jump drives available at TL 9+ and that's it?

RAW, you can't build drive L on TL 9 worlds.
 
Never said you could :)

But I am saying that if said TL9 has a type A starport it can build any starship, the rules in LBB2 say so.

Let me quote it again:

Space ships are constructed and sold at shipyards throughout the galaxy. Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. The military procures vessels through these yards, corporations buy their commercial vessels from these shipyards, and private individuals can purchase ships that they have designed through them as well. The major restriction on the purchase of ships is money.
Now there are two ways to interpret it so it makes sense.

Import the higher TL drives or the starport is a higher TL than the world.
 
Import the higher TL drives or the starport is a higher TL than the world.

I agree the import option is available.

On some of the maps, though, the import distance is exceedingly far, especially on the frontier.





I think the Traveller universe is a more interesting place, though, if starports are limited by world TL.
 
But, looking at the rules as written...why do you think the drive letters are on the tech chart if not to limit their construction with low TL than indicated? Why else would they be there--multiple entries for the drives on different TL's?

Why wouldn't the list just have something that indicates Jump drives available at TL 9+ and that's it?

As I noted earlier, the Tech Level charts also provide a cap for any given setting a Referee creates. If the TL of an interstellar community is capped at TL 12 then Drives P and above are not available. In the same way if someone wanted to develop a Trappist-1-type setting of several earth-like worlds around one sun, some of which have interplanetary travel but none of which have interstellar travel, technology might be capped at 8 or a soft-9, indicating research on Jump drives and allowing other TL 9 items.

The point of the Tech Level, as written, is to encourage the Referee to make choices about his or her settings. It is a range of options. Not everything on the TL table is available in every campaign. (Or, perhaps more specifically, not everything is available to the PCs and the core setting -- but other, stranger elements of higher TL might arrive or be discovered. For example, in the Trappist-1 setting I just described, aliens might arrive with Jump Drive tech, even though the campaign has been running without such tech for eight months of play.)

Is there an argument to be made against this point of view? Because I'm honestly not seeing it.

RAW, you can't build drive L on TL 9 worlds.
A world of a TL 9 can't build L Jump Drives. But that does not mean external forces/entities/groups of one stripe or another can't be building Drives using a technology above the quality of the local world.

We know this is possible -- by the rules -- because we know we can end up with starport classes that can produces goods above the local world's TL index.

All this means is that there are worlds out there -- perhaps off the subsector map if needed -- that do have the technology to produce drives. They have sent technicians, expertise, and tools -- for whatever reason -- to a world in order to build a particular class of starport.

I understand this "breaks" the idea that TL "determine the general quality and capability of local industry." But then the whole point of the UWP sysgen is to create exotic and unique circumstances to foster exotic and unique situations and settings for SF adventure stories. By the time the Referee has worked out why an A-class starport has been set up on a TL 8 world (daydreaming upon the UWP, and the other worlds of the subsector, and the overall setting beyond the subsector) he will invariably have come up with more of a look and feel if the world as well as one to five plot hooks for adventure possibilities.

I need to reiterate here that I do not take the UWPs as literally as some people here do, for reasons I outlined earlier.

If I roll up a resource-rich world with a TL 8 with an A-class starport I can decide that a corporation backed by a noble has annexed a portion of the world and is taking those resources with troops backed with laser rifles. I could further decide the corporation is conscripting the planet's citizens for labor as the planet's economy falls apart. I am both using the rules exactly as intended and providing grist for adventures all in one fell swoop. The world population does not have the tech to build drives and starships. But an extra-planetary entity has arrived and built the infrastructure to do exactly those things. The reasons why this is happening are endless. The disjointed nature of the situation will offer conflict, destabilization, and crisis. Which is awesome for PCs and RPGs in general.

(I need to add, I suppose, that the above example is only one of a gazillion available and not even that interesting yet.)

The trick is to not make mismatched starport TL and world TL go by without comment or thought. That would be a shame. But by asking questions (again, what the system wants you to do) one comes up with interesting results.
 
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Again, it depends.

If it were an isolated world, or only one world has the TL to produce in a cluster and is not in trade with another polity interested in selling compatible equipment, then I would have those drive letters/TL chart matrix count heavily.

Otherwise, no.

Consider value vs. shipping- if I am shipping 100 tons of drive costing 100 MCr and I have to ship them 10 parsecs that is 100 x 1000 x 10, or 1 MCr- trivial cost to value. You could make it 50 parsecs and that is still just 5% of value.

Quick look at say the 3 letter M drives for a Type C, that's 2 MCr per ton. At a 1% shipping rate, that's 20 parsecs.

Ship components are high value items, and 'travel well'.
 
According to the TL chart, they can.
Thanks for pointing out my typo. I've added the "L" into the post.

Yup, that's why TL exists...to show what kind of tech is locally available on the world.
As everyone here acknowledges.

But I just made a lengthy post addressing how this is not the whole matter, using examples and several key points from the rules.

Are you really going to ignore the rest of the post and simply quote one sentence that no one is arguing with?
 
Natoko is a a good example.

Marc must have rolled up (or looked at) the UWP B582211-8, and considered that it was on an X-Boat route, has a Naval Base, and is non-industrial, and said to himself, "Hmm. Look at that Pop. An average of 500 permanent residents. With a Class B starport and a Naval Base.

"All of those people have got to work for the starport and/or Naval Base. I'll up the pop to more like 900, staying within the code.

"And, I'll say that place is undeveloped and wholly owned by Tukera. Right now, it's nothing but a starport and a base."



The place is non-industrial, so there is no industry. Just about all tech is imported, which makes sense given the UWP.

TL 8 is the rule of thumb to use when considering what kind of tech is available on the world.

As far as the starport, a Ref can go two ways. He can just assume that all Class B starports can import components to build spacecraft (the general standard for all starports), or he can get more detailed and go by the TL chart (which, in this case, allows the same thing...spacecraft are built at TL 7+).
 
Are you really going to ignore the rest of the post and simply quote one sentence that no one is arguing with?

I agree with some of what you say--that the rules are meant for Ref encouragement to get creative and make an interesting universe for his players to explore.

I also think that Traveller has some one-size-fits-all guidelines or rules that sometimes people (including myself) take too literally.

Is fuel Cr500 per ton for refined fuel the price everywhere you go, all the time?

Yes, by RAW. But probably no, from a Ref's point of view using that figure as a starting point. Or, yes, from a Ref's point of view of just keeping everything simple.

As with the Starport TL. I think its easy to just assume that all Class A starports can build any starship up to max TL no matter the world where the starport sits.

I think the TL chart is there for Ref's to consider and make choices about how their universe operates.

In the end, the TL chart contradicts the general descriptions of the starports--and, it's up to the Ref to decide how he wants to play it.
 
Just because an A port can put together the parts does not mean the parts are available there to put together, Mike.
 
Just because an A port can put together the parts does not mean the parts are available there to put together, Mike.
How about the parts for an annual maintenance?

The cost for shipping jump drives from the nearest world that can manufacture them is trivial compared tot he price of the drive.

It may help explain the build times.
 
How about the parts for an annual maintenance?

The cost for shipping jump drives from the nearest world that can manufacture them is trivial compared tot he price of the drive.

It may help explain the build times.

The time isn't trivial, tho'.

Plus, some have the issues of borders to cross.
 
My answer to this question is a type A Starport might be maintained at higher tech level than the planet but it would be more dependent on imports from sources capabile of supporting such a tech level.

Consider a shipment of TL 12 weapons. Deliver them to a lower tech world and they'll be hard to maintain once the consignment's initial pool of replacement parts have been consumed. However its not just the parts but also understanding the principles and lacking all the miscellaneous things a tech level 12 society can provide.

A type A starport would probably have an easier time as it could perform a lot of the construction at the starport but it would still need miscellaneous things if the world below can't supply them. Fortunately they should be well connected to places that can supply them.
 
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