Supplement Four
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Except that LBB5, page 20, says that a starports TL is the same as the world TL. A Class A starport builds starships at the TL of the world.
CT Only: Starships & Starport A's & TL
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Except that LBB5, page 20, says that a starports TL is the same as the world TL. A Class A starport builds starships at the TL of the world.
mike wightman
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LBB5 may as well be a different game.
So many LBB:2 and LBB:3 paradigms are changed by it that the contradictions make for a totally different setting.
So many LBB:2 and LBB:3 paradigms are changed by it that the contradictions make for a totally different setting.
kilemall
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I agree- if one is building custom HG ships.
TCS further brings this point home with maintenance being at the TL of the planet.
But maintenance outside of warships is done at A or B starports.
So I honor both by making that LBB2 component/HG custom distinction.
Supplement Four
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I see why you say that, and I don't entirely disagree.
But, I consider LBB5 part of the CT universe. It's offers Advanced Chargen (which I tend to ignore in favor of Basic Chargen). And, it offers an abstract method of Capital ship combat.
I think its information is very useful to a standard CT game. When the Ref wants to go macro with a space battle, these are the go-to CT rules for that (as a big battle would be a nightmare to plot using LBB2, Starter Traveller, or even Mayday rules).
I concur. However, Bks 1-3 are one unit; nothing within is intended to stand apart from the rest of it.
creativehum
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Has anyone suggested Books 1-3 shouldn't stand as a unit?
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Supplement Four
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On page 18, LBB5 actually states that it is not meant as a separate entity, but instead as a continuation of the rules.
It says that it is not meant to supersede LBB2 in any way, and LBB2 starship design is considered to be modular, where LBB5 is meant to be a custom design system for large capital class starships.
I'm paraphrasing, of course.
I suppose the smaller vessels created using LBB5 would be LBB2 equivalents that are custom made--not modular.
A THOUGHT
When thinking about Class A starports through this lens, a Ref could easily assume that Class A starports can build any ship of any TL via LBB2 using modular--probably imported--parts. But, if LBB5 is to be used, then the world's TL must be considered (where a Class A starport can only build drives up to the world TL).
That would make a lot of sense for someone's Traveller game.
It says that it is not meant to supersede LBB2 in any way, and LBB2 starship design is considered to be modular, where LBB5 is meant to be a custom design system for large capital class starships.
I'm paraphrasing, of course.
I suppose the smaller vessels created using LBB5 would be LBB2 equivalents that are custom made--not modular.
A THOUGHT
When thinking about Class A starports through this lens, a Ref could easily assume that Class A starports can build any ship of any TL via LBB2 using modular--probably imported--parts. But, if LBB5 is to be used, then the world's TL must be considered (where a Class A starport can only build drives up to the world TL).
That would make a lot of sense for someone's Traveller game.
creativehum
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That's what it says.
Nonetheless, I point you toward the long dance Hans went through trying to justify the Kinunir class ships being called a Battle Cruisers at 1200 displacement tons. With Book 2 ship building, that makes sense. With the Imperial fleet that got built out after the release of Book 5, not so much.
That's just one example.
Again, I know what the Book 5 claims. I'm addressing what it actually does.
Listen, by the way... I don't think the inconstancies are anything to get worked up about. GDW was caught up in a strange experiment as they went along. Building a fictional setting for an RPG was something that was being tested even as it was being published. No one between '7 and '78 thought anyone would want to buy a setting an RPG. And GDW -- rightly -- jumped on the bandwagon once they realized there would be a market.
My first point is that the Imperium and the attendant Books and Supplements had not been created along with Books 1-3 in some sort of grand plan. When Miller published Traveller he thought that was that and that the people buying the game would make their own settings. (Gygax though the same of D&D) And with out taking time to make a grand plan some trip-ups were bound to occur as the Books and Supplements rolled out. But again, the hobby and publishers were figuring this stuff out as they were going, so it's all cool.
Second, there's no problem with trip-ups as long as a) everyone is willing to admit this is the situation and b) people don't try to shove the whole of the "canon" down people's throats. Because some people can see how certain pieces fit well together and certain pieces don't, and pick and choose to build what they want. If someone says, "Naw, I'm fine playing a Traveller setting where the Kinunir class really is a battle cruiser, not only is that a perfectly reasonable thing to do, it's perfectly reasonable per the original Traveller rules. If someone wants to jigger ideas to justify lots of bits of business that don't quite mesh across 40 years and five editions, that's their business. But they should be willing to accept a lot of people simply don't need that to have a good time playing the game.
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Supplement Four
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What's the argument against the Kinunir being a Battle Cruiser? 1200 tons doesn't make the cut for tonnage? Too small?
creativehum
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For Hans, yes.
I provided a link to his post, but here's a portion:
In another thread, in an effort to make the contradiction between Adventure 1 and Book 5, he would suggest the Kinunir class ship wasn't Imperial Navy at all.
I'm not going to go down the cannon rabbit hole myself, but the wiki seems to suggest they had no business being called battle cruisers either.
As for myself, given the scale of the Imperial ships I too find them too small to be taken seriously as battle cruisers.
Mike has, by implying that Bk 3 rules about TL don't apply to what a Type A port can build...
Timerover51
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Adventure 1: The Kinunir appeared in 1979, along with the first edition of High Guard, and well before the 2nd edition of the LBB. Presumably it was written with the 1977 edition of the LBBs in mind. The 1977 edition of the LBB represented a "small ship" universe. In a "small ship" universe, if the author calls it a "Battle Cruiser", then it is a "Battle Cruiser". It would depend on what size of ships the author was thinking off that were in the Imperial Fleet.
Supplement Four
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In LBB2 and LBB3 (and lots of other places) Class A Starports are described as being able to create any starship.
The TL chart seems to contradict that description. That's where Mike is coming from, and I understand his point of view.
I think a Ref just needed to decide how he wants this to play out in his own game, because LBB2 and 3 support both sides of the argument.
mike wightman
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Yup, if I decide to set a game during a long night I may limit the overall TL to say TL12 and thus limit ships that can be constructed due to the maximum drive being the N - so 2000t maximum.
If I decide on a setting where worlds do not have trade lane networks then the maximum drive may well be what can be locally produced.
Within the default setting of TL15 being the maximum with extensive trade routes then I don't see the need to limit drive availability to local TL - unless it is a world or subsector cut off - the Islands cluster for example.
General Shipyards on Regina can thus construct their Kinunirs using drives that are produced on Rhylanor but shipped to Regina for assembly - that's how explain it for my proto-Spinward Marches.
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
If I decide on a setting where worlds do not have trade lane networks then the maximum drive may well be what can be locally produced.
Within the default setting of TL15 being the maximum with extensive trade routes then I don't see the need to limit drive availability to local TL - unless it is a world or subsector cut off - the Islands cluster for example.
General Shipyards on Regina can thus construct their Kinunirs using drives that are produced on Rhylanor but shipped to Regina for assembly - that's how explain it for my proto-Spinward Marches.
The beauty of CT LBB1-3 is that the ref is free to make such decisions for themselves.
mike wightman
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I think you may be right 
creativehum
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Certainly it is the reason -- the most important reason -- I've been babbling on about Little Black Books 1-3 for the last couple of years.
And snagged as well.
And snagged as well.
LBB1-3 may be a unit, and treatable as a standalone component, but that idempotence vanishes one the supplements are incorporated. The supplements are not orthogonal to the whole, like, say, and adventure is. Rather they're an evolution of it. This is clear both in the industry, as well as later demonstrated when the games were consolidated.
Consider: Squad Leader is a different game when Cross of Iron is added to it. SFB morphed dramatically as the supplements were released. Both of them went through a serious consolidation phase that incorporated all of the supplements in to a more integrated whole.
Arguably, MT was that for CT. Not so much a rewrite, as an integration of the published works. All of the learning that happened through the development of the CT game system, along with the Imperium, combined in to a single, reorganized kit.
So, it's fair to consider LBB1-3 as a singular entity, but the Supplement reach their tendrils back, and affect that unit.
No, but it's clear that they weren't developing new products from a clean slate, and in isolation. Rather they were developing the whole, with the publications of the rules, boardgames, and JTAS articles being essentially snapshots of their train of thought at the time of publishing.
They may not have had envisioned such a whole at the very start, but that shifted, and reasonably quickly, for both commercial and, I assume, personal interest of the developers. That is, an 11,000 system spanning Imperium didn't just happen, They(tm) wanted it that way. When that concept became a gleam in their eye, anyone can guess.
So it's fair to consider the texts as simply manifestations of their evolving continuum, rather than isolated constructs.
It's also clear that this is the "galaxy they wanted", as they simply double downed on it when they created MT.
Supplement Four
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I don't really have a problem at all calling the Kinunir a battlecruiser. Hell, maybe it was the time it was built. The US Navy is full of ships that were dwarfed by later vessels of the same name. An early aircraft carrier, for example, against a modern day aircraft carrier. Clearly, one is a lot more powerful than the other.
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