Outsystem - beyond 100 diameters from the mainworld

[aramis]

If you're looking for the design system, you only need FF&S.

Note that there are zero design systems in the TNE core, but the world and animal gen are both slightly altered from CT/MT, and the trade system is almost identical to that in MT, and thus is a very close variant of CT Bk7.

 

[Proneutron]

If you're looking for the design system, you only need FF&S.

Note that there are zero design systems in the TNE core, but the world and animal gen are both slightly altered from CT/MT, and the trade system is almost identical to that in MT, and thus is a very close variant of CT Bk7.

Thanks for that info. FF&S it is then

 

[mike wightman]

TNE Fire Fusion and Steel is one of the greatest additions to the Traveller corpus.
It has rules for designing the tech of the OTU and also varaiant technologies that do not appear in the OTU but do appear in other sci fi works.

Best of all mass and heat management get a mention

 

[Condottiere]

It's easier to comprehend than Tee Five.

 

[Proneutron]

TNE Fire Fusion and Steel is one of the greatest additions to the Traveller corpus.
It has rules for designing the tech of the OTU and also varaiant technologies that do not appear in the OTU but do appear in other sci fi works.

Best of all mass and heat management get a mention

Thanks. I glanced at it a LONG time ago. Looked comprehensive.

 

[Proneutron]

It's easier to comprehend than Tee Five.

Often writers need a person who solely wears the editor hat who knows the intended result a writer is looking for...

 

[BRover]

Yes--but remember that there are thousands of systems in the 3I, and even more in Charted space. Even low-probability events happen frighteningly frequently if you examine enough systems.

But my primary point was the number of nukes required to clear a system properly--and the waste of resources. Safety is a nice bonus, but not the prime concern.

What are you talking about?

What's your chance of winning the lottery jackpot? Really quite low.

But, with hundreds of thousands playing, maybe millions, the number comes up somewhere pretty often for someone.

Likewise, a large rock (or whatever) hits a terrestrial size planet once every several million years--maybe once in a billion years. Rare, right?

But the Imperium has 10,000-odd main worlds, and even more outposts. Your 100 million year timeline to a major strike just became once in 10,000 years or less. Maybe other systems have more junk orbiting out there, especially with multiple asteroid belts? Still want to risk the chance?

True, it's a small chance, but over enough systems, it's not insignificant.

 

[aramis]

TNE Fire Fusion and Steel is one of the greatest additions to the Traveller corpus.
It has rules for designing the tech of the OTU and also varaiant technologies that do not appear in the OTU but do appear in other sci fi works.

Best of all mass and heat management get a mention

And the Happy Fun Ball cannot be built, because it cannot dissipate heat fast enough to prevent the crew turning into the other other white meat... and then, eventually, overheat shutdown.... and even then, not enough surface area to mount the radiators and all the weapons mounts listed in CT.

FF&S1 (TTNE's version) is pretty much incompatible with the OTU as was prior to TTNE. It's great for a prototraveller kind of small ship universe... but it feels quite different.

TNE basically found a new audience, with little crossover from MT and less still from CT. So, those who had converted ran up against the issue that the added details make many OTU designs lose much in performance.

 

[kilemall]

CT/TCS had full on refueling rules for both gas giants and planets with water.


The TCS tournament proper section has design qualifications required of competing fleets, one of which is inherent refueling capability.

If the ships were required to refuel directly from gas giants, they have to be partially streamlined. If they were required to refuel from water, they have to be entirely streamlined. Alternatively they can have refueling shuttles that go get the fuel that then fits any atmospheric requirement, and presumably any jump capable ship would have the refiners (or maybe a centralized tanker squadron). Or an orbital refueling 'civilization only' fleet can be specced, no wilderness refueling defined.


The second part of the TCS refueling rules has to do with the 'strategic terrain/operational effects' part of the campaign game on refueling.

The main effect of how many ships are streamlined/partially streamlined enough affects how quickly the fleet dallies at refueling. A qualifying percentage of ships are streamlined enough, it's 0 weeks time, not enough and you spend a whole week at it. The rules flatly state that if you don't have any ships that can refuel from the source, you can't use it.

Starports are rated for refueling tonnage on hand, assuming of course that the planet in question surrenders and/or has not enacted/been victimized by a 'scorched planet' policy of destroying facilities. Any ship/streamlining state is 0 weeks.


The other two 'minor' but telling bits are the drop tank rules, and the outer system hiding 'must come out for fuel or run out and die' rules.


So in total, ships and fleets have to be designed for the refueling their task makes necessary. Internal defense fleets/shipping lines operating in civilized space, no special considerations. Offensive or even defensive across undeveloped or scorched home territory will require fast refueling, or risk being slowed down for enemy choice of when and where to battle, or worse stuck with no ability to refuel at all.

Since partially streamlined is more economical then fully streamlined, you can expect more fleets/ships will be able to refuel at gas giants but not wild planets with water. Systems with NO gas giants will require planetary/starport refueling, or possibly enough tankage carried/transported in to be able to jump out.


Translating all this to ACS, it's most flexible to be streamlined, or alternatively have small craft for refueling needs and budget in the time to skim the fuel, or more exotically be able to use drop tanks or multiple jump tankage.

 

[Condottiere]

Gas giant fuel skimming isn't exactly the preferred method of refuelling, especially during hostilities, hence the term High Guard.

 

[whartung]

Gas giant fuel skimming isn't exactly the preferred method of refuelling, especially during hostilities, hence the term High Guard.

Actually it is the preferred method, thus the term High Guard.

The base point is that the entire fleet is designed for Wilderness refueling. You just can't count on being able to fuel up at the local Starports, especially on deep penetration raids.

Otherwise they have to conquer and take, and likely damage, local Starports for their fueling capability. It makes much more sense to deal with Wilderness fueling scenarios than trying to root the Badger out of its hole, especially on dry tanks.

 

[Condottiere]

It's an option in hostile space.

It's the equivalent to tying you to a rope, and swinging you across a lake so that you can lap up water with your extended tongue.


Might be a Vargr Olympic event.

 

[Vile]

It's an option in hostile space.

It's the equivalent to tying you to a rope, and swinging you across a lake so that you can lap up water with your extended tongue.

It's the only option in hostile space. Even in non-hostile space, an entire fleet lapping up water with its tongues is considerably faster than said fleet queueing up at the starport gas station.

 

[Condottiere]

You send in fuel shuttles.

Which is why the Azhantis had them.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

You send in fuel shuttles.

Which is why the Azhantis had them.

possible, but could be inefficient. how long does it take for the AHL to refuel via shuttle runs vs a single skimming pass?

I dont know thier capacity, but even if it had enough shuttles to fully fill its tanks with only 1 pass each (which i would be surprised by), it would still be slower than the ALH skimming itself, due to the time taken to launch and recover those shuttles.

 

[mike wightman]

You must not own CT Supplement 5 There are two whole pages devoted to refueling the AHL class:

Nestled along the ventral groove of the ship are four 400-ton fuel shuttles. Each
can carry 350 tons of fuel; and is streamlined for refueling dips into the gas giant.
The four shuttles, working together, can skim 1400 tons in three hours, or completely
refuel the ship in 27 trips (slightly over three days). Normally, one or more
shuttles are diverted to administrative uses, complete with passenger seats installed,
and the refueling (using only three shuttles) takes closer to a week.
If the fuel source is an ocean, the shuttles must penetrate the atmosphere, land
in the ocean, and fill their tanks. The procedure takes twice as long (six hours per
load; about seven days for complete refueling).
Finally, the fuel source may be an ice cap. The shuttles take nine to ten hours
per load, and the complete refueling can take upwards of ten days.

 

[whartung]

You must not own CT Supplement 5 There are two whole pages devoted to refueling the AHL class:

See, that's good info right there. In FFW terms, Ice fueling would take "two turns", while normal fueling can be done in a week.

Also, there's nothing that says you have to fill up the entire tankage. If you only want Jump-1, fill it up 1/3rd (I think the AHL was J3 ship, adjust accordingly if that's mistaken), with similar time taken. So, in that scenario, you can get J1 is a day. Enough to get in and get out of a hostile system before anyone can react.

 

[Condottiere]

If there's one warship designed to go into hostile space, it would be the five parsec range Azhanti High Lightning fleet intruder.

To clarify, most of Imperium Navy warships are closely structured, so that's going to be a bumpy ride if they decide to dip their wick into a gas giant, where things can get shaken loose.

Not helped by possibly floating minefields and lurking stealthed system defence boats.

It's what's termed a calculated risk, keeping up the momentum of an advance.

 

[mike wightman]

Funny thing you mention emergency fuel skimming:

In emergencies, the ship can utilize its limited streamlining to allow a direct fuel
skim of a gas giant. This procedure will not work with an ocean or ice cap, but it
does give the ship the ability to refuel in most star systems. The ship dives into the
gas giant's atmosphere and opens its fuel scoops, loading up with hydrogen directly
from the atmosphere. There are three dangers to this procedure; all are called for by
the very design of the ship, by the costs of the design, and the realities of structural
integrity.
1. Loss of the Fuel Shuttles. If the shuttles remain with the ship, there is the
very real danger that they will be torn from their mountings by atmospheric turbulence.
If they are left behind, they may be picked off by enemy action.
In any emergency refueling operation, throw 10+ for each shuttle to be lost;
DM -ship's boat expertise of the pilot aboard the shuttle.
2, Loss of Fuel Deck Integrity. The severe buffeting may cause one or more fuel
decks to leak or buckle, resulting in a failure to retain fuel. This is an accepted part
of the total ship design.

 

[mike wightman]

See, that's good info right there. In FFW terms, Ice fueling would take "two turns", while normal fueling can be done in a week.

Also, there's nothing that says you have to fill up the entire tankage. If you only want Jump-1, fill it up 1/3rd (I think the AHL was J3 ship, adjust accordingly if that's mistaken), with similar time taken. So, in that scenario, you can get J1 is a day. Enough to get in and get out of a hostile system before anyone can react.

The thing is ice fueling from a world such as Pluto should be quicker than the ice cap mining since you don't have more than a very thin atmosphere to contend with and the local gravity is way below the g rating of the fuel shuttle m-drives.