Passengers in Traveller

[Timerover51]

Back in 1999, my parents-in-law had scheduled a cruise and tour package for the Alaskan Inside Passage, followed by a tour of Alaska. My father-in-law died of cancer in December of 1998, and my mother-in-law, still wishing to take the cruise, invited my wife and two children to go. As the cabin had been paid for assuming two adults, adding the two kids was not that expensive, and totaled, if I remember correctly, under a thousand dollars. The cabin was about 10 feet by 15 feet, or 3 meters by 4.5 meters, about the size of the standard deck plan for on Traveller stateroom.

Now, consider if this trip have been planned under Traveller rules to go to an adjoining star system. First, for two adults, two separate cabins would have been required, and then for my 8-year old son, a third cabin, and for my 6-year old daughter, a fourth cabin. The cost for each child would be 10,000 credits for one High Passage, as you would not want them bumped by another passenger. It is at this point that the passenger system in Traveller breaks down.

The cost of a stateroom in ship construction is 500,000 Credits. However, staterooms should be about as standardized as standardized could be for the basic room. In Marc Miller's article in JTAS 11, The Model 317 Pressurized Shelter, the cost for an 8-person shelter, that includes an airlock, water and air recycling plant, small galley, and power plant, which is collapsible, is all of 50,000 credits. The shelter is intended to be used for up to 2 months. Now, that means that the cost of the shelter includes life support, power costs, and galley costs, for one-tenth the cost of a starship stateroom, and can handle life-support for 8 adults in a space about the size of two standard staterooms.

To Be Continued.

 

[kilemall]

Big difference, pretty sure pressurized shelters can't jump or move to 100-D limits or take hard open space radiation or fly with effectively battleship armor, all while getting good meals and service.

Discounting the steward, Mid Passage is still 8000 Cr, of which in CT 2000 is life support.

Fuel costs, depending on jump anywhere from 200-600Cr plus of that, and mortgage support on 500,000 Cr, which works out to 2084Cr per month, or 1042Cr per two week trip cycle. Plus, a percentage of the crew salary, widely variable depending on ship size + other passenger/cargo paying.

SO, rough cost is 3250 or so credits. Multiply that by 8 weeks and hmmm, 26,000 Cr. The rest of the ticket cost is opportunity/risk for operating the ship, buying the stateroom space and risking empty space.

The pressurized tent does not count consumable or crewing costs, so consider that.

Finally, there is market demand. How much will people pay to live in the pressurized space hut for 8 weeks vs. jump to the next world? For certain operational and survival situations the hut is invaluable, but in general it won't fetch 8/10K tickets.

EH, they are both tools, comparing hammers to nail guns, different pricing model, engineering requirements and operating costs.

 

[flykiller]

Big difference, pretty sure pressurized shelters can't jump or move to 100-D limits or take hard open space radiation or fly with effectively battleship armor, all while getting good meals and service.

well, you could set them up in the cargo bay. 1000 Cr / dton, 3 dtons, 3000 Cr, what a deal.

 

[Enoki]

As flykiller points out it's cheaper, particularly if you travel a lot, to just buy a shipping container and fit it out for say 4 using that same pressurized shelter model. I'd bet somebody rents one.
That means you now pay 4 to 8,000 credits for cargo space instead and have a nice place for up to 4 to stay while travelling. Better, once you arrive and your container is unloaded, you can save the cost of a hotel room...

I'd bet once that caught on the price of passage would fall like a rock...

It's either that, or the various larger shipping firms get the Imperial government to outlaw the practice on some flimsy excuse like it's unsafe.

 

[BlackBat242]

The cost of a stateroom in ship construction is 500,000 Credits. However, staterooms should be about as standardized as standardized could be for the basic room. In Marc Miller's article in JTAS 11, The Model 317 Pressurized Shelter, the cost for an 8-person shelter, that includes an airlock, water and air recycling plant, small galley, and power plant, which is collapsible, is all of 50,000 credits. The shelter is intended to be used for up to 2 months. Now, that means that the cost of the shelter includes life support, power costs, and galley costs, for one-tenth the cost of a starship stateroom, and can handle life-support for 8 adults in a space about the size of two standard staterooms.

To Be Continued.

Big difference, pretty sure pressurized shelters can't jump or move to 100-D limits or take hard open space radiation or fly with effectively battleship armor, all while getting good meals and service.

tr51 was quoting the construction cost only, for the stateroom only - not the cost of the ship, etc. The staterooms don't have built-in jump or maneuver drives, nor are they armored. Instead, they fit inside a ship (priced separately) which has those things.

His cost also does not include operating costs.

 

[creativehum]

It's either that, or the various larger shipping firms get the Imperial government to outlaw the practice on some flimsy excuse like it's unsafe.

If I was the captain of a small ship I'd bounce the idea because it's unsafe.

I don't need some passenger living unsupervised for two weeks in my cargo hold.

 

[Condottiere]

Troops: Normally, the Kokirraks do not carry troops. It is possible to install modular quarters for up to 2,000 troops (usually only 1,000 are carried) in the cargo hold. A squadron of eight Kokirraks can carry between 8,000 and 16,000 troops, or the equivalent of a reinforced division.

 

[kilemall]

As flykiller points out it's cheaper, particularly if you travel a lot, to just buy a shipping container and fit it out for say 4 using that same pressurized shelter model. I'd bet somebody rents one.
That means you now pay 4 to 8,000 credits for cargo space instead and have a nice place for up to 4 to stay while travelling. Better, once you arrive and your container is unloaded, you can save the cost of a hotel room...

I'd bet once that caught on the price of passage would fall like a rock...

It's either that, or the various larger shipping firms get the Imperial government to outlaw the practice on some flimsy excuse like it's unsafe.

MY starship design competition included one entry where passenger containers were effectively like private railroad cars during the tycoon salad days. Still, I have a hard time imagining Baron X suffering the shame of effectively travelling by mobile home, noma tter how graciously appointed.

By the way, private rail cars largely went the way of the dodo when the rules were changed to force every railcar to have to pay 17 tickets, rather then hook up and go as a free 'business courtesy'. So yes interstellar law could effectively ban or price out the practice.

On the other hand, I could see a class of 'yacht' that is small craft in size and HAS to be shipped. Perhaps a loophole that also saves face, if luxuriously appointed.

 

[kilemall]

tr51 was quoting the construction cost only, for the stateroom only - not the cost of the ship, etc. The staterooms don't have built-in jump or maneuver drives, nor are they armored. Instead, they fit inside a ship (priced separately) which has those things.

His cost also does not include operating costs.

True, but he was comparing staterooms to the pressure tent, I am making the case that the price differential is reasonable give the very different roles the two types but same 'living space' are accomplishing.

Context and tool use matter.

 

[Timerover51]

Big difference, pretty sure pressurized shelters can't jump or move to 100-D limits or take hard open space radiation or fly with effectively battleship armor, all while getting good meals and service.

Discounting the steward, Mid Passage is still 8000 Cr, of which in CT 2000 is life support.

Fuel costs, depending on jump anywhere from 200-600Cr plus of that, and mortgage support on 500,000 Cr, which works out to 2084Cr per month, or 1042Cr per two week trip cycle. Plus, a percentage of the crew salary, widely variable depending on ship size + other passenger/cargo paying.

SO, rough cost is 3250 or so credits. Multiply that by 8 weeks and hmmm, 26,000 Cr. The rest of the ticket cost is opportunity/risk for operating the ship, buying the stateroom space and risking empty space.

The pressurized tent does not count consumable or crewing costs, so consider that.

Finally, there is market demand. How much will people pay to live in the pressurized space hut for 8 weeks vs. jump to the next world? For certain operational and survival situations the hut is invaluable, but in general it won't fetch 8/10K tickets.

EH, they are both tools, comparing hammers to nail guns, different pricing model, engineering requirements and operating costs.

I am comparing the cost of the Modular Shelter to the costs of installing a standard ship stateroom

The rules per se do not have any age restriction on the requirement for only one person per stateroom. Does a 3-year old human being require their own stateroom? Does a family of four, such as I gave in my not at all hypothetical example require four staterooms at 10,000 Credits per stateroom in order to travel anywhere? If this is the case, then how many passengers are you likely to get from a planet? In the 1982 CIA World Factbook, the per capita income of the US for the year 1979 is given as $10,745. That is about what I was making as a US Army 1st Lieutenant in 1978, in a year. It has been stated that the Imperial Credit and the US Dollar in 1877 should be viewed as equal.

Basically, if a Modular Shelter, as described in the article, costing 50,000 Credits, one-tenth the cost of a ship stateroom, and can supply life support, to include food, for 8 persons for 2 months, I have a very hard time justifying the claim that a standard ship stateroom arrangement, to include life support, cannot handle 4 persons per cabin for a period of one week. I will also need to take a look at reducing the initial cost of a ship stateroom to 50,000 Credits on the economics of some of the standard ships.

 

[flykiller]

By the way, private rail cars largely went the way of the dodo when the rules were changed to force every railcar to have to pay 17 tickets, rather then hook up and go as a free 'business courtesy'. So yes interstellar law could effectively ban or price out the practice.

including for nobility?

 

[kilemall]

I am comparing the cost of the Modular Shelter to the costs of installing a standard ship stateroom

The rules per se do not have any age restriction on the requirement for only one person per stateroom. Does a 3-year old human being require their own stateroom? Does a family of four, such as I gave in my not at all hypothetical example require four staterooms at 10,000 Credits per stateroom in order to travel anywhere? If this is the case, then how many passengers are you likely to get from a planet? In the 1982 CIA World Factbook, the per capita income of the US for the year 1979 is given as $10,745. That is about what I was making as a US Army 1st Lieutenant in 1978, in a year. It has been stated that the Imperial Credit and the US Dollar in 1877 should be viewed as equal.

Basically, if a Modular Shelter, as described in the article, costing 50,000 Credits, one-tenth the cost of a ship stateroom, and can supply life support, to include food, for 8 persons for 2 months, I have a very hard time justifying the claim that a standard ship stateroom arrangement, to include life support, cannot handle 4 persons per cabin for a period of one week. I will also need to take a look at reducing the initial cost of a ship stateroom to 50,000 Credits on the economics of some of the standard ships.

<SHrug> do as you like to make sense to you. I just think there is a vast difference between the two in that the quality of construction and likelihood of lasting through time is worth 10x, and that the price differences are VERY justifiable.

As for ticket costs- reality check.

THIS paper gives us cost ranges for a comparable trip, Atlantic crossings in 5-7 days.

http://eh.net/eha/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Weissetal.pdf

Using an average of a ticket costing $100 in 1900 and doing relative value calculation, we get a value between $660 and $8100+.

https://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/result.php?year_source=1900&amount=100&year_result=1975

SO pick your poison as to which you consider appropriate. I favor the high end one because percentage of economy gets you an idea of how many resources it took to travel back then, you may disagree.

But real interesting that number goes bang on with the mid passage cost. Not hard to figure a better service class could easily yield an equivalent of $10,000 1975 dollars.

As for children, I always figured parents would pay the passage for children and low passage at least one parent for economy and safety sake. Especially since I wound people instead of kill them in Low Berths, and a child's lower ability to take damage makes them vulnerable.

 

[Timerover51]

True, but he was comparing staterooms to the pressure tent, I am making the case that the price differential is reasonable give the very different roles the two types but same 'living space' are accomplishing.

Context and tool use matter.

I would suggest that you read the article. I am not going to attempt to post it here. JTAS Number 6, pages 35 and 36.

 

[flykiller]

Basically, if a Modular Shelter, as described in the article, costing 50,000 Credits, one-tenth the cost of a ship stateroom, and can supply life support, to include food, for 8 persons for 2 months, I have a very hard time justifying the claim that a standard ship stateroom arrangement, to include life support, cannot handle 4 persons per cabin for a period of one week.

modular shelters don' flah.

 

[kilemall]

including for nobility?

I don't know the history of European or Japanese noble rail, just the US.

I do know the Mexican cars, many of whom were for government officials were luxuriously appointed, and I believe the Japanese emperor still has one, so certainly reasonable to do something like that for Traveller nobles.

I just don't think it would strike nobles as being a preferable way to travel. I could see it appealing to recluses though, or for security reasons.

If I were operating a ship I would likely still insist on a Mid Passage ticket per person, just for the trouble and having enough life support on standby. With a concurrent cargo charge, 3000Cr per ton, not bad.

Here is a quick overview of royal trains-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_train

 

[flykiller]

I don't know the history of European or Japanese noble rail, just the US.

well seems to me if the imperium "owns the space between the stars" then they can write laws for it.

but yeah, any noble that needs to travel frequently will want his own boat, not his own trailer.

 

[kilemall]

I would suggest that you read the article. I am not going to attempt to post it here. JTAS Number 6, pages 35 and 36.

Pretty sure the same pressure tent has been used and reused many times since in most every variant. I expect there is one in MgT2E, certainly one in the MgT1E CSC.

I believe your point, correct me if I am wrong, is that it will house many people, in vacuum, for a fraction of the cost, and therefore the staterooms are too expensive.

Certainly not like a pup tent for boy scout trips, but again, it's not armored, designed to last in continuous use for 40+ years and built into a starship, a different proposition then even a wet ship,i na much smaller tighter economy.

Also, 1975 pleasure cruises are not the same hit as a 1900 Transatlantic voyage, or arguably more 1850s-70s steamers, opening up frontier areas with travel times in weeks and limited collieries available.

Don't get me wrong, I GET why some of the rules can get under the skin.

As you may have noted the computer rules of CT drives most of us nuts. I ended up with a set of rules that satisfies a feel for cheap systems, and a reason (extreme avionic reliability at a NASA level) for the expensive stuff. Go cheap, take your chances, I make it a play choice while honoring the original.

<Shrug> if it makes you happy go for it. I would suggest making lemonade out of lemons for it and increase game play value in some way.

 

[Enoki]

MY starship design competition included one entry where passenger containers were effectively like private railroad cars during the tycoon salad days. Still, I have a hard time imagining Baron X suffering the shame of effectively travelling by mobile home, noma tter how graciously appointed.

By the way, private rail cars largely went the way of the dodo when the rules were changed to force every railcar to have to pay 17 tickets, rather then hook up and go as a free 'business courtesy'. So yes interstellar law could effectively ban or price out the practice.

On the other hand, I could see a class of 'yacht' that is small craft in size and HAS to be shipped. Perhaps a loophole that also saves face, if luxuriously appointed.

I'd expect Baron von Snoot to have access to his own ship, be it his personal yacht, or something "government." If the Baron was connected to a corporation, he'd simply use the equivalent of a corporate jet and put it all on the corporation's dime.

It's the well-to-do but not connected traveler that's likely to have a personal container home. It'd be sort of like someone with an RV today. They have some real cash to travel but aren't made of money so they're frugal with their credits.
Paying for a stateroom doesn't make sense within the rules.

After all, container homes already exist. I see no reason why in the future a self-contained unit with power wouldn't be available

I'd also add that up through about the 60's there were freighters that offered passage at very reduced rates compared to liners. Even today these are still available. The rates are typically about $100 a day at most, often less.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Freighter_travel

That equates to having a cabin for a jump for maybe 1000 cr or less.

 

[kilemall]

Freighter travel now 1000Cr, sure.

YOU go to the Galaxiad with hop drives and antimatter power, the time power and fuel cost likely drops by a similar margin.

I would agree with your assessment of the likely users of container passenger travel, probably retired Bureaucrat Manager SOC 8 guy, has 100,000 Cr to sink into such thing- or go one better with the RV idea, make it an ATV or gCarrier.

Stateroom onboard, wheels when you get there.

The reason I thought private railcars is that they were the sort of form factor such a passenger container would need.

This one has space for the help, but I'm not sure it works well for 7-day trips for shut in passenger containers. These cars were designed for 3-4 day trips at most with plenty of stops to get off the train.

I'd probably run 1 steward and maybe 3 passengers tops with some of those staterooms converted to entertainment/reading/social facility, just to give people a different view and activity space.





If you want modern ratios of cost to travel, just divide EVERYTHING by 10, tickets/cargo fees /ship costs/builds, everything.

Incidentally, I do EXACTLY THIS, divide every cost by 10 in The Cloud. But it's a very laissez-faire take your life in your own hands/no inspectors/Colorado mining camp/Tortuga sort of thing, very much a unique environment that lets players know they aren't on a civilized main anymore.

The other point to consider is, in RL just TRY and load yourself up on a container ship with a living space onboard.

My guess is that would be a big no for any variety of security liability and risk to the ship reasons.

At a minimum you would have to decide the backdrop of your environment, is it the kind of place that forces ship owners to be responsible for even stowaways, or is it the kind of place that spaces any unpaid guests or doesn't take kindly to undercutting fee structures the whole financing of ships assumes.

 

[aramis]

I edited Kilemall's post to use the IMGW=800 tag instead of the standard image tag, so it doesn't force the page to be wider than the average browser window.