Pirates in Disguise

[Patron Zero]

Not as well-read as many others here regarding such matters so looking for opinions and references. many thanks in advance.

I'm wondering if a merchant vessel or other starship with the available space for such, could convert their cargo hold into a weapons bay ?

The concept is what outwardly appears to be a 'semi-harmless' appearing say 200 Ton Empress Marava-class Far Trader but in actuality is a commerce raider armed with a most nasty hidden surprise of a particle beam cannon or meson gun.

Granted additional powerplants would need be installed to support the weapon's energy demands but not as if in a prolonged naval engagement. Likely just one or two firings would disable a targeted ship if not the threat or display of said weapon's capacity would insure surrender from most crews.

All said, the ship carrying the big gun would be supported by a few smaller vessels for hauling off plundered cargo and passengers from merchants and traders caught in such circumstances.

 

[GypsyComet]

Smallest... Mauler... Evar.

 

[Orr]

You're asking about Q ships and there's no reason why they shouldn't exist.

IIRC, MT had a few design examples, some of which included "booster" power plants for weaponry with hours instead of weeks of fuel allotted.

 

[Rabbit 3]

No doubt it would be possible and some pirates somewhere likely tried it.
The main problem with it is likely the cost of the conversion and how well the ship performs in combat.
It strikes me that the common tactic of just using fake transponder codes to camoflage a Corsair or Patrol Cruiser type vessel as a merchant ship is a whole lot simpler from a pirates point of view.
There is one other possibility though, this might really work as an anti pirate `Q` ship type vessel.
This ship poses as a standard Far Trader in a system frequented by pirates, when they are intercepted they surrender and wait till the pirate closes to `eyeball` range while preparing to put a boarding party on board.
Then BANG, the Far Tader opens up with the military bay mount it has in the cargo hold.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Smallest... Mauler... Evar.

Stranger, that sounds like SFB talk...

 

[rancke]

You have to assume that there's some reason why this won't work well. Otherwise, why wouldn't all 200T warships mount three weapons? Perhaps the structural integrity of a 200T ship can't handle a third gun.

If you decide to ignore the ship design rules (certainly a valid approach -- I can't see any reason why the setup you propose shouldn't work perfectly well), the pirate would face two problems: a) It can't visit a starport, because it wouldn't be able to keep up the disguise as it wouldn't have any goods to unload or space to load any cargo bought there. That means it's behavior is going to be suspicious because a genuine merchant would arrive at the jump limit and then head for the starport as fast as it could. b) The moment it deviates from its flight plan and shapes a course to intercept another ship, alarm bells are going to ring no matter how convincing the disguise.

It would work much better as a Q-ship.

Lovely deck-plan, BTW..


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

It's actually what I've been contemplating that the Solomani Navy would try, in order to hide their assets identity until they can penetrate as deep as possible, before becoming active in the event of war.

It would have to be a common class of merchantmen, so that their profile wouldn't stand out or be very memorable. Batteries or capacitors should hold enough juice for at least a few shots, though the real problem is getting close enough to jam communications.

 

[Patron Zero]

Wow ! Didn't expect that many replies so quickly, my thanks to everyone.

As to address specific notes and comments:

-Condottiere: I see the use of a drone-rpv sent ahead of the raider as a jamming platform if being subtle, if not a few well bracketed nuclear-tipped missiles in the general vicinity would fog-up any radio broadcasts also.

-rancke: I'm doubting a raider outfitted as such would be visiting any of the usual starports or other venues for support as more likely being tendered in the field by those whom operate the vessel. The deckplan modified was a 1980 GDW design I found by means of Google.

-Rabbit 3 & Orr: Hadn't thought about such being deployed as a Q-ship.

Rather interesting idea of said ship being 'captured' or recovered and now flying the black flag for a pirate enclave.

 

[Rabbit 3]

Stranger, that sounds like SFB talk...

Or E.E `Doc` Smith if you know where SFB got the idea from.

 

[whulorigan]

I'm wondering if a merchant vessel or other starship with the available space for such, could convert their cargo hold into a weapons bay ?

The concept is what outwardly appears to be a 'semi-harmless' appearing say 200 Ton Empress Marava-class Far Trader but in actuality is a commerce raider armed with a most nasty hidden surprise of a particle beam cannon or meson gun.

One thing to consider: If you are going to use the ship as a Corsair (as opposed to a Q-Ship), would you really want a meson-gun? A meson gun bypasses hull and does automatic interior explosions (which potentially include the cargo bay of the target). You may end up destroying the prize-cargo in the target's hold, which would defeat the purpose of being a corsair in the first place. A Corsair wants to disable (presuming it resists) and board its target, not cause heavy damage to the interior.

Perhaps the structural integrity of a 200T ship can't handle a third gun.

It would work much better as a Q-ship.

Several 3rd party CT ship designs included bay weapons on ships under 1000 dton (FASA, et al). IIRC they used a modified HG2 house-rule whereby a 50 dton bay could be installed per 500 dton of ship. In MgT, any bay weapon simply requires the use of one hardpoint and an allocation of the necessary space within the hull. So it depends what ruleset you are using. In a CT/MT ruleset, one might argue that the cargo bay (even though it is an empty "bay") was not purpose-designed to hold a weapon, and therefore would need to sacrifice internal space in the bay for "bracing" and other systems to make it "weapons-ready" (which might limit the size of and/or prohibit installation of the bay weapon).

I general, I would agree with Hans: it seems to be better suited as a Q-Ship design rather than a Corsair.

 

[shield]

Big issue would be the power plant needed to support a bay weapon. under HG2 a fusion bay is about 20EP, which is PP10 for an 200tn ship. Even at TL15 thats 20tns power plant and 20tns of fuel to power the bay weapon. You can't get enought power plant in to run a meson bay or a 100n part acclerator.

Biggest issue is usefulness. The ship would stand out as it does not follow normal merchant flight paths / does not take on cargo or passenger. Also it would have to travel with another vessel to carry the stolen cargo which would be unusual for a small merchant of this size.

As soon as the ship moved to intercept another, or did not approach the starport or a gas giant or as soon as jamming or nuke detonations start, the local defence ships will start to move in

 

[atpollard]

One thought that occurs to me is that the weapon (as shown) is not aimed (like a turret or bay) but the entire ship turns to point it (like a spinal mount). So rather than viewing it as a 'bay weapon' on a hull less than 1000 dTons (which is questionable under the rules), you could view it like a 50 dTon or 100 dTon spinal mount ... which is not restricted by hard points.

 

[rancke]

One thought that occurs to me is that the weapon (as shown) is not aimed (like a turret or bay) but the entire ship turns to point it (like a spinal mount). So rather than viewing it as a 'bay weapon' on a hull less than 1000 dTons (which is questionable under the rules), you could view it like a 50 dTon or 100 dTon spinal mount ... which is not restricted by hard points.

By what rules? ISTR that HG deducts the tonnage of the spinal weapon from the hull tonnage that the rest of the hardpoints are calculated from.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

By what rules? ISTR that HG deducts the tonnage of the spinal weapon from the hull tonnage that the rest of the hardpoints are calculated from.

Hans

No matter what, there will be some house ruling in creating a Classic Traveller Q-ship ...

I see it as a 'house rule' that for every Bay Weapon (designed for ships greater than 1000 dTons), there exists a corresponding 'spinal mount' version (with identical statistics) for ships below 1000 dTons.

From here, yes, you are exactly correct about applying the rules for spinal mounts ... a hypothetical 200 dTon Q-ship with a 50 dTon 'spinal mount' would have 150 dTons available for hard points ... so externally, the ship has 1 hard point, probably with a mixed triple turret, until it opens the cargo bay doors to expose the 50 dTon Spinal "Bay" Weapon.

I thought that it did the least harm to both the letter and spirit of the rules (since it is comparable with how REAL Spinal Mounts are handled on large ships, and the rules for fixed-mount turret weapons on ships under 100 dTons).
YMMV.

 

[pendragonman]

Smallest... Mauler... Evar.

The PF Mauler variant. :rofl:

Sounds like an Orion thing.

Ghost: you say that like we can't do an SFB RPG using Trav rules.

 

[Drakon]

The big problem is, where do you store with the loot? With your cargo bay full of meson gun and power supplies, you may need a second boat to haul the loot to port.

If you can take the opposing ship intact, great. I can imagine the crew performing all kinds of sabotage to keep you from operating their ship, or flying it to port.

Other than that, this is a nasty idea. I love it.

 

[McPerth]

And why not just stuff the cargo hols with fighters if you want to give it more combat power, wither for privateering or as a Q ship to fight just those pirates?

As for the ship itself, I see the far trader atLittle too small for that role (unless you just want it to fight small piracy that would flee from anything larger). IMHO, a fat trader or a subsized liner would be better suited for that (as the Vigilante in MT).

 

[Dagrill]

-rancke: I'm doubting a raider outfitted as such would be visiting any of the usual starports or other venues for support as more likely being tendered in the field by those whom operate the vessel. The deckplan modified was a 1980 GDW design I found by means of Google.
-Rabbit 3 & Orr: Hadn't thought about such being deployed as a Q-ship.
Rather interesting idea of said ship being 'captured' or recovered and now flying the black flag for a pirate enclave.

Hi,

I'm in agreement with Hans, it's behaviour as a Pirate would be suspicious,
also as a Q ship it's behaviour would be suspicious for the same reasons and assuming the Pirates have dirt side observers.

I had the old FASA Chameleon 800t Commerce raider deckplans and Mongoose does a 400t Q Ship based on the type R, subsidised merchant.

With 400 tons there is more room for a bay and larger drives and still some room over for cargo to masquerade as a juicy target.

Regards

David

 

[atpollard]

I've had a chance to uncover an interesting ruse for a pirate ...

Leave a J2 system with a deep jump shadow flying at 1G.
Most of the other ships leaving will be faster (2G) and eventually pass you.
When a ship passes you within weapon range (100,000 km in CT?), shoot it and disable the drives/pp.
Now accelerate to overtake the drifting ship, steal what you can, and continue to the jump limit with a head start and a good initial velocity.

A forward mounted bay weapon shooting up the tail of a merchant ship might be useful.

 

[rancke]

Leave a J2 system with a deep jump shadow flying at 1G.

You've been visiting the starport and not conducted any business while you were there?

Most of the other ships leaving will be faster (2G) and eventually pass you.

Most merchant ships will be travelling at 1G. Faster ships will mostly be armed ships of one kind or another -- Scouts, SDBs, patrol ships. If we're talking a significantly deep jump shadow (days or weeks), odds are that the starport is located at the jump limit and cargo is transferred to and from system shuttles there.

When a ship passes you within weapon range (100,000 km in CT?), shoot it and disable the drives/pp.

If System Control is doing its job, it will assign you and the other ships flight paths that do not come within shenanigan range of each other.

Now accelerate to overtake the drifting ship, steal what you can, and continue to the jump limit with a head start and a good initial velocity.

If you have been accelerating at 1G and the prey has been accelerating at 2G, it would have built up a velocity advantage over you that you'd have to spend time overtaking.


Hans