Planetary Emergencies

[Spinward Scout]

Hey Everybody,

I was reading an article (I think it was in Time magazine) about the Taipei 101 building being heavy enough to cause tremors. It got me thinking about earthquakes and tsunamis and man-made disasters. We've covered in the past evac ships and how huge they would have to be, but what about people who don't want to leave - or don't have time to. What kind of efforts would TAS provide to them or the Traveller equivalent of the Red Cross? Food? Water? Shelter? Let's say, for example, a meteor strikes a water world (90% water), not hitting any land masses, but creating a tsunami. What would the recovery efforts be? Could anyone get there in time to make a difference, with 1 week travel time? People can dehydrate and die in less than a week.

What are your thoughts on this?

Dameon

 

[Whipsnade]

Dameon,

Given the nature of jump drive, a world is pretty much on it's own when it comes to natural disasters. We're looking at over 340 hours for any help to arrive from anywhere. As you point out, people can do a lot of dying in that time.

SJGames JTAS had a planetoid impact Heya in the Marches last year. I did some back of the envelope caculations just dealing with rations. Shipping in food on that scale simply isn't going to work. Shipping out refugees is equally hard. Unless you have several ARs nearby, you aren't going to move any appreciable fraction of the population.

Shipping in grave registration units seem to be your best bet.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

Dehydration on a water world? "Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink." A tsunami (and storms) on a water world would probably be planned for and threats monitored with plenty of warning and shelters. Most settlements on a water world (in my opinon) would be seabed domed arcologies built on safe areas and not really threatened by many natural disasters.

In a related vein I once read a great story about the problem with a big ocean on a world. The usual storms on such a world would put the worst we have on present day Earth to shame. Same would go for very large worlds with more than average hydro.

And again that would be something such a world would prepare for. I can't imagine any advanced civilization being so backwards as we are. Of course for any balkanized and/or low tech world they may be very much as poorly prepared and organized as we are, or worse if lacking even the minimal U.N./W.H.O./and such.

The TAS wouldn't be involved, beyond issuing an advisory to it's members to not travel there at this time. They are just too small and geared to providing services related to tourist matters for the few members visiting systems with TAS hostels.

In MTU the Red Cross equivalent is a Mega-Corp run for profit. They are in the business of selling recovery items and services, kind of a "gentle mercenary" force and organized much the same. They'll take any job for the right price. Some regular mercs may also offer their services for some of the problems common with any disaster (crowd control for one).

Reaction time is likely to be 2 weeks at the best (1 week to jump out to alert the aid-force and 1 week for them to jump back) and much more at times and some places.

The Imperial Navy (and Marines) will also give a hand to member worlds, often being the second on scene. First on scene in MTU is often the Imperial Army garrisoned on planet. In peacetime it gives the forces something to do to justify it's operations budget. The Scouts can usually only run for help, there's not much a single type S can do in a large emergency.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Dehydration on a water world? "Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink."

Dan,

Across history tens of thousands have died of thirst aboard lifeboats. You can't drink seawater and there's plenty of fresh water you shouldn't drink either.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. Good point about the storms, tides, waves, etc. Imagine the Roaring Forties worldwide...

 

[Spinward Scout]

Hmmm, looks like travel time is the killing point.

The U.S. always thought they were prepared, then Katrina hit and turned into a fiasco. I know we don't really prepare for winter blackouts even anymore, but I remember a 3 day blackout when I was little.

I'd say a billion+ population wouldn't be prepared for a once in many lifetimes event. But, like you said, there would probably be systems in place to give ample warning. Tho, I don't see that much can help even if there is warning.

Run for your lives doesn't work when you run out of places to run.

Thanks for the ideas!

Dameon

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Dehydration on a water world? "Water water everywhere and not a drop to drink."

Dan,

Across history tens of thousands have died of thirst aboard lifeboats. You can't drink seawater and there's plenty of fresh water you shouldn't drink either.</font>[/QUOTE]Quite true, but desalination is (relatively) low tech and almost a must for a water world society. And other purification systems are likewise going to be needed on a host of worlds even with near earth like conditions. And many such purifications systems are also low tech. Now if the infrastructure of the world is centralized rather than dispersed a hit on it is a disaster in itself even if (or even moreso) the population survives the initial damage.

Hmmm, come to think, maybe a starship with a fuel purification plant could be run in a fashion to produce potable water from any liquid water?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
The U.S. always thought they were prepared, then Katrina hit and turned into a fiasco.

Dameon,

One city in one state was unprepared. Sadly it got all the media attention.

Check out the rest of the Gulf. For that matter check out Florida the year before. Four hurricanes, one of which approached Katrina strength, in something like 10 weeks and you saw none of man-made disasters you saw and still see in New Orleans.

Just as New Orleans and Louisiana exist, there will be shabby, corrupt, dysfunctional, cities and regions on you 57th Century planet too. That doens't mean the rest of the planet won't be ready, like Florida was ready.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Quite true, but desalination is (relatively) low tech and almost a must for a water world society. And other purification systems are likewise going to be needed on a host of worlds even with near earth like conditions. And many such purifications systems are also low tech.

Dan,

I'll just repeat the same phrases I always use in these cases: Operate It, Power It, Distribute It, Etc. It, Etc. It, Etc. It.

If every domecile has it's own desalination plant and if they're all solar powered and if they all work 'automatically' and if too many of them weren't damaged and if a couple dozne other things, then I won't worry too much about potable water.

Otherwise...


Have fun,
Bill

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Hmmm, looks like travel time is the killing point...

...Run for your lives doesn't work when you run out of places to run.

One thing occurs to me a bit late, if the society is high enough to have efficient space travel (Starport B+ and maybe TL9+) then not only may help be within the system (only days, hours or minutes away) and allied, they may even be safe harbour for refugees, at least temporarily.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Not to belabor a point, but New Orleans (Nu-Ahlens to the natives) may have been unprepared, but that in itself was due largely to New Orleans being built on a flood plain (which was known) and the local corruption of the municipality. The corruption part is part of the whole reason no administration (most recently the Bush administration) would offer any government assistance to that city prior to Katrina.

It should also be noted that the reports of city wide ransacking were greatly overexaggerated. All that being said I would think those condition would be mimicked or repeated for a Traveller scenario. Maybe a subsector in Margaret's realm is horrifyingly corrupt, and one of the local water worlds suffers a world wide tsunami ripple that causes great havoc.

Travel time for relief from another system is one thing, but travel time from an insystem world is another. Assuming the even was reported just as it was happening, and an X-boat jumped out to the local capital, even once the X-boat DL'd the news to the Imperial authorities it would take some time to digest, plan and impliment a relief effort. That and, depending on the ruleset used, you must in include the time for not only a relief column to arrive, but, as I stated, for the message itself to get out.

Using CT rules (2-week jumps) it would take a month or more to get relief from the Imperials (assuming intersteller relief). Using MT+ era rules it would take, at the bare minium, two weeks; one week for the news to get out and another for the Imperial Red Cross to jump in with hospital ships and such.

It may be that some worlds have a "Japanese" approach to disaster preparation; i.e. pre-established parks or centers and/or facilities that are stocked and prepped to accomodate a number of refugees. Japan has such a nation wide system (though currently it's thought to be broken down and ill maintained since their last big quake) where citizens can take shelter after a big earthquake.

A meteor strike on a world (an unlikely, but not improbable event) that had such facilities would be able to hold its own until the Imperial navy jmped in with troops, doctors, food and medicine.

Just my two credits worth.

Thoughts?

 

[Spinward Scout]

Well, I could see some ships in system coming to help, but how many? Enough to make any real difference? Even if you had 1000 ships in system, and multiply that by 4 weeks of food on board (if they just resupplied) - it still doesn't come out to much if the population is any large size.

Well, this is a problem.

Ok, let me give you this scenario:

Roup
2007 Regina/Spinward Marches
C77A9A9 6 S
Amber Zone
Waterworld situated on the express boat route from Regina to Efate. Its population of 3.4 billion is concentrated on the peaks of a few underwater mountains, the only dry land on the world. Real food (as opposed to the local concentrates made from fish) is highly prized by the population.

Just pulled it out of The Traveller Book. We've all seen this world on a map. No underwater arcologies. Class C starport. Charismatic Dictator in charge. Tech Level 6. Scout Base.

Meteor hits
(It wouldn't be detected at Tech Level 6. Only by the Scout Base or a ship at the Starport or on it's way to or from a Jump Point - IF they are looking for it).

BOOM!

Anything floating by the shoreline when a tsunami hits is screwed and most likely it's their fishing industry, even if the water doesn't go high enough to destroy housing, their food supply is hosed unless everyone has a fishing rod.

How long do they have before the population collapses on itself without food resources destroyed by the tsunami - especially if most of the population survived?

 

[RandyT0001]

I think that when a natural disaster strikes a planet within the Imperium it is up to the planet's local government to handle it. There is no Imperium wide "Red Cross" type of institution within the Imperium. In the water world example then the locals have to deal with the consequences of the disaster as best they can. If people have to starve then they starve. Some higher tech/rich/agricultural worlds within the subsector might send some token assistance (food stuffs, water, emergency shelters, etc.) within a few months time to try to ease some of the suffering but the Imperium's primary purpose is to protect the interstellar trade of the megacorporations. The Imperium might offer low interest loans (via a megacorporation) to rebuild the starport but otherwise the world is probably on it's own when disaster strikes.
IMO

 

[Lochlaber]

Without land or at least very shallow seas, a Tsunami wave is not a danger at all. Ships, even small boats; have ridden out tsunami waves without even noticing it. Weather systems (storms) would be more of a danger than a tidal wave.

 

[Lochlaber]

Sorry double post

 

[sid6.7]

i'm thinking considering the scale of the imperium
and space and all that, the best you could hope
for would be a small response by the imperium 2
weeks after the disaster and only maybe
if there is a imperial presensce on the planet.

the level of response probably would be small
for a frontier planet VS something coreword
too, if its well within the imperium borders
you could get 2000+ ships responding easily
but frontier wise maybe a dozen+?

you'd also probably get a few raiders
taking advantage of the sitrep too just
to add gas to the fire...

depending on how close/big the meteor hit to
your island chain on a "waterworld" it could
in effect roll right over it..if it was a ways
out from the islands it might only just
destroy the shoreline maybe a .5-1 mile inland...

your example of 3.4 billion poeple would proably
be an impossible sitrep to save even a substanial
amount of them in the short term...

some could even degrade down to cannibals if
its really bad...which would allow them to
live a bit longer till help arrives...

at tech 6 they could detect a meteor and could
have weeks if not months to get a number of
people off or work out a better plan...tech
6 is pertty much where we are today in the real
world...
you mention a scout base....they would
probably see it even sooner which would give
the locals even more time...

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think the Tsunami episode presupposes some land and/or set structures. That is buildings that don't float on the globe wide ocean, but are set into the "bedrock" under the water surface.

One might argue that said structures would probably have tidal resistant architecture. I'm not sure a Tsunami would be much of a threat to such a metropolis, but seaquake or meteorstrike would be another matter.

A sea-quake would again might be anticipated, but a meteor strike, size depending, would be something to contend with.

But this is all assuming "Earth-like" conditions. What about disasters on vacuum worlds, or worlds with corrosive atmospheres? Ouch.

 

[ravells]

And if you were able to get sufficient food to the planet, the logistics of distrubtion (assuming a pop. in the millions or billions would be a nightmare.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Worse still, a disaster strikes a moderate to high population airless or exotic atmosphere world where the Meteor strikes (or asteroid shower lands) knocks out the Lifesupport power unit building for an arcology world, or shatteres into the arcology/ habitat itself for a major loss of LS/ & air.

How long will it take Billions to die? Given the two week analogy, even if a working replacement power unit was rushed there, at best time, I would estimate most if not all would be dead by the time they returned.

Now using Katrina as an example, and given all the things that went wrong there (a Traveller equivalent Moderate populated city/ world of some 450-500K), there were, we who descended down from the air on 31 Aug via the USAF Guard of LR, AR, pockets of organization amidst the chaos so not everyone even 5-7 days after landfall of the storm was in bad shape.

In the scope of it--some 60-65000 people remained (15% of the total population), and some 25,000 were evacuated between 01 Sep to 02 (out of Superdome) Sep (20,000+ out of convention center by my unit that day, leaving emergency Services (Fire & Hospital folk) workers, police (State, Parish, and city), and what few government folks remained until the water was all pumped out and power began to be restored.

This for Traveller is of course assuming
@the folks Knew of the disaster, and only these remained despite evacuation warnings.

@There are other cities or better placed ones to evacuate to on this planet example.

On a hostile environmental world, loss of power, electricty, food and water we have from the TNE-Virus collapse already seen how fast a population can "Die-off". After 2 weeks, even the hardiest of the 10% have perished there.

@Probably a better example for this thread to deal with is a slow inexorable one, like droughts, or famines. Constant internecine war can ruin an ecology as well (I spell 'Somalia/ Horn of Africa').

Unless YTU has an Imperial red Cross, or large Church charitable organization (s) to conduct relief (Mine does), it falls to the philanthropy of the Imperium's Planetary, Subsector/ Sector Nobles to respond to it with whatever they can muster and harness. The Media will be watching..

just as they did in Katrina..

The trick is can you/ they act in time and save most of the sophontry endangered (you/they will not be able to save them all).

Good topic.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

Maybe people on a vacuum world or one with a corrosive atmo might be better prepared to get along with a disaster as those on a pretty planet.

This might be, because the environment was/is a constant threat, which already existed even during settlement and people are better adopted to such a situation.
So safety and rescue facilities might be much more frequent, as well as safety-training.
Even the technical layout might be much more redundant, to provide LS even if some modules are toast.

Just a thought....

Regards,

Mert

 

[RandyT0001]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Unless YTU has an Imperial red Cross, or large Church charitable organization (s) to conduct relief (Mine does), it falls to the philanthropy of the Imperium's Planetary, Subsector/ Sector Nobles to respond to it with whatever they can muster and harness. The Media will be watching..

just as they did in Katrina..

Right, it falls upon the sub-sector or quadrant nobles to do something about it. Since it might be a couple of months before word of the disaster spreads across the quadrant then add a couple of months while the nobles gather up whatever help they can muster plus the couple of months to journey back to the stricken world it's probably going to be at least six months before any substantial help arrives. It's up to the world's government to handle the situation until then, if they lost life supposrt then that means 99.999% will die (I'm sure the local government leaders will somehow manage to survive along with their families.).

The importance of the media watching the response is going to be less of an issue than what we had with Katrina. Imperial nobles aren't elected like city mayors, state legislators, and President's are here in the US. Depending upon the government there might be no coverage of the disaster on some worlds (where conditions are similar ie vacuum worlds with life support dependencies, etc) because the local government might not want it's population questioning them and a potential response to a like disaster. Dictators are not know to permit a free press to exist, especially if it questions the government's actions. Even on worlds that have a free press and democracy with elections there might not be much response with the people who live there. Not every society is going to feel sympathy or guilt because someplace else had a disaster.