well yeah, "the fleet" is going to have some troops. see my "imperial marine fleet battalion" link below. but a full-on invasion force? that's not a "oh hey look, a planet, let's capture it" thing, it will take some time to draft, train, equip, and transport such a force, and the limiting factor will be space aboard a jump ship. j2 would be sufficient.
MGT Only: Planetary invasion ships
- Thread starter McPerth
- Start date
well yeah, "the fleet" is going to have some troops. see my "imperial marine fleet battalion" link below. but a full-on invasion force? that's not a "oh hey look, a planet, let's capture it" thing, it will take some time to draft, train, equip, and transport such a force, and the limiting factor will be space aboard a jump ship. j2 would be sufficient.
CliffBates
SOC-12
Looks interesting. And mostly agree with what has been said.
I would just suggest that the transport ought be classified in types: (1) The initial assault wave ships (which perhaps ought to be able to keep up with the Battle Units of the Fleet(s) in Question--also these ought to require little time to get ready to make an planetary assault.).
(2) Secondary invasion waves (these too need to keep up with the main fleet but can take a bit more time to get in prep to deploy).
(3) Main Invasion wave (this might come a week or two after the Landing Zones are not only firmly established but you have certain landing trajectory that would be out of the ability of the enemy's ground based defenses to effectively target while landing--these ships can be at 1/2 or 1/3 the Jrange of the Fleet's operational average).
(4) Reinforcement waves.. these are often carrying supplies and replacement personnel.. and these again will have 1/2-1/3 Jrange.
With the first two waves.. there perhaps ought to be some orbital bombardment platforms or ships designed for those purposes. Such ships could be as smalls as 400 tons and up to 4000 tons in the SSU view, but outside the SSU limit.. 15ktons is a good limit.
Also most of the initial assault perhaps ought to be done by Jump Troops and ships designed to drop off between as much as a company to a battalion each... and offer some support for them as the next waves get ready. The next waves ought to have the armored landers bringing in men and equipment.
Grav Tanks and Grav APC (and other Grav Vechs) can be be launched from orbit and they enter like the Grav Carriers and Transports. But non-Grav vech need to be transported by boats. The 50 ton module Cutter have special 30 ton modules that can be used to transport equipment down--or the gutted out version of the 50 ton troop transport as well.. But here is where 200-300 ton to 1500 ton sized landing boats might be useful as well. These might also will be useful to move up the wounded and combat ineffective units who have been replaced by new forces--or take up prisoners and or the dead. [Wounded troops in need critical care will be mostly MedEvaced by smaller Med Cutters with emergency low birth facilities.
I would just suggest that the transport ought be classified in types: (1) The initial assault wave ships (which perhaps ought to be able to keep up with the Battle Units of the Fleet(s) in Question--also these ought to require little time to get ready to make an planetary assault.).
(2) Secondary invasion waves (these too need to keep up with the main fleet but can take a bit more time to get in prep to deploy).
(3) Main Invasion wave (this might come a week or two after the Landing Zones are not only firmly established but you have certain landing trajectory that would be out of the ability of the enemy's ground based defenses to effectively target while landing--these ships can be at 1/2 or 1/3 the Jrange of the Fleet's operational average).
(4) Reinforcement waves.. these are often carrying supplies and replacement personnel.. and these again will have 1/2-1/3 Jrange.
With the first two waves.. there perhaps ought to be some orbital bombardment platforms or ships designed for those purposes. Such ships could be as smalls as 400 tons and up to 4000 tons in the SSU view, but outside the SSU limit.. 15ktons is a good limit.
Also most of the initial assault perhaps ought to be done by Jump Troops and ships designed to drop off between as much as a company to a battalion each... and offer some support for them as the next waves get ready. The next waves ought to have the armored landers bringing in men and equipment.
Grav Tanks and Grav APC (and other Grav Vechs) can be be launched from orbit and they enter like the Grav Carriers and Transports. But non-Grav vech need to be transported by boats. The 50 ton module Cutter have special 30 ton modules that can be used to transport equipment down--or the gutted out version of the 50 ton troop transport as well.. But here is where 200-300 ton to 1500 ton sized landing boats might be useful as well. These might also will be useful to move up the wounded and combat ineffective units who have been replaced by new forces--or take up prisoners and or the dead. [Wounded troops in need critical care will be mostly MedEvaced by smaller Med Cutters with emergency low birth facilities.
These ships can probably carry the troops in low berths instead of staterooms, since they don't have to be immediately ready for action.
FWIW, I am working on a 5,000 ton battalion transport. J3, 3G, 28 laser turrets, 20 PB barbettes, a 100-ton missile bay w/1,200 missiles, carrying 495 ready troops (plus 50 more in LBs) and their vehicles (10 grav tanks, 44 G/carriers, 2 grav assault vehicles), plus four ship's boats. 183 tons cargo.
Well, once again I really cant find any major faults in your thinking..Just a different take on how to do things
using a grav equipped fighter as both air superiority and ground support would simplify the equations.
a multi role craft might not be as good as a dedicated battlespace superiority fighter, or a ground attack craft. But I think the effectiveness would be high enough in both roles to do the job....and in the end its the only deciding factor..can it accomplish it's mission.
There are likely only a few viable defense scenarios for planets. In WW2 is was "guns in heavily armored fortification, mines, barbed wire, and obstacles on the beaches". That was How Things Were Done, knowing full well that if someone is showing up on the beaches, you've already given up the initiative - so now you simply have to stall them and make it as expensive for them as you can.
But since we don't have rules for interface combat, we don't know what good defenses would be, or what a good offense would be, so how can we design ships and equipment to perform the task? How long are we in the atmosphere? How fast can we go? How maneuverable are we? Are we shrouded in plasma, or making a cold, controlled landing?
As soon as the ships hit, do you switch from the Starship tactical time scale to a Striker tactical time scale? Starship combat is for open space with ships 1000's of km apart from each other. Now, you're at "point blank" range, 100-200km. How many shots to the lasers get now? How about the meson guns? or even the missiles?
What are the affects of nuclear weapons in the upper atmosphere? They may well be viable in an anti-shipping/vehicle role here.
Maybe individual jump capsules make sense because they saturate the defensive fire better vs an armored ship. Fill the sky with thousands of capsule cluttered with chaff. Some may be empty boxes, some may be vehicles.
But I don't know. it depends on the rules.
You design against the environment, the rules define the environment.
The role of those ships would be mostly what you call phases 1 and 2. Phases 3 and 4 can be taken over by less specialized ships.
As I said initially, those landers would be the equivalent to LCA/LCI (sorry, I said LST, that also can be before) in WWII.
Yes, other ships will take care of this part. The only ships shown in this thread thought for this are the fighters.
Well, depending on how do you depict jump troops. If you understand the clasic Starship Troopers style capsule drop, I'm not too much partidary of it on a grav environement.
I see it safer to make the atmospheric reentry in the landers and to drop the grav belt troops from high altitude for the grav directed drop.
I was left alone by defending this in another thread about drop troops...
Until I'm not clarified about the risk of low berths in MgT I won't use them for troops. I'd never do it in CT (where about 8 % fatality can be expected); I'd do it in MT, where very few (if any) fatality will occur (though you'll have some ill soldiers). IDK enough of other versions.
It would be a nice partner to those for the armored forces...
IIRC you used a different design system...
In MT (using HT variants) you could have your troops in bunks at 1 dton/person (and in HT it existed the half bunk at 1/2 dton/person)...
Last edited:
In WWII it was going from sea to land in atmosphere, against a foe of roughly the same TL and in limited possible places. In Traveller is going from space to ground in a variety of atmospheres, against foes of varied TLs and with the full planet to choose where to land.
I see many more possibilities here, and no ship will be perfect for all of them
You seem to be thinking in CT/MT terms. In MgT range bands and time scale are quite different for space...
The most likely effect of any nuke fired by the defenders in a planetary invasion would be to give nuclear release to the attacker, that has orbital supremacy. Aside from this, I guess they would be quite damaging for the landers...
Capsules are like paradrops, while landers are like amphibious assaults. With all the advantages paratroopers might have, where amphibious landing was possible, it was conducted (even if supported by paratroopers) in the same WWII you put as example...
Last edited:
One of the interesting historical tidbits is that the large units the USN fielded in WWI & II were mixed Marine and Naval troops.
A company or two of marines (100-300 men), and a company or two of ships' complement. Naval Gunners and Boatswain's Mates, mostly.
A ship that had landed it's full troop strength could neither fight nor make sustained flight, as what was left aboard was a skeleton crew, mostly engineers and officers. (The Naval Infantry were mostly BM and GM rates, tho' RM, SM, YN and HM rates were also fielded in roughly equivalent portion of compliment, but had much smaller complements. Almost all MA rates were landed, too;in higher proportion than the BM and GM rates. ET, BT, and MM rates largely stayed aboard.)
A company or two of marines (100-300 men), and a company or two of ships' complement. Naval Gunners and Boatswain's Mates, mostly.
A ship that had landed it's full troop strength could neither fight nor make sustained flight, as what was left aboard was a skeleton crew, mostly engineers and officers. (The Naval Infantry were mostly BM and GM rates, tho' RM, SM, YN and HM rates were also fielded in roughly equivalent portion of compliment, but had much smaller complements. Almost all MA rates were landed, too;in higher proportion than the BM and GM rates. ET, BT, and MM rates largely stayed aboard.)
This is a MgT design and still under construction.
5,000-ton battalion transport
The battalion transport is intended to carry a force of over 500 marines and their vehicles up to three parsecs and provide bombardment support to their mission. It is frequently escorted by two or more 1,000-ton destroyers or lighter warships, although it does have good defensive systems. Note that the battalion carried is designed for raiding and short term operations. For longer-term operations, larger battalions (requiring multiple ships) are used.
The marine contingent is 495 ready troops, with a 20 man HQ platoon in 2 G/Carriers, three rifle companies (each with 110 marines and 10 G/Carriers), a tank platoon (45 men, 10 grav tanks, 2 G/carriers and 2 grav assault vehicles) and an engineer company (100 men in 10 G/carriers). Fifty replacements are carried in low berths and emergency low berths are available for up to 80 critical casualties.
The battalion transport capable of 3G acceleration, jump-3 and has a factor 3 power plant. Fuel tankage of 1,667 tons supports one jump-3 and 4 weeks of operation. Thirty tons of fuel are reserved for the small craft. The bridge has holographic controls and is hardened, with three Model 4/fib computers. Electronics include military countermeasures and enhanced signal processing. There are 330 staterooms, 50 low berths and 20 emergency low berths. Teen briefing rooms and 10 armouries are also provided. The ship has 50 hardpoints, with a large missile bay (w/1,200 missiles), 20 particle beam barbettes and 28 triple beam laser turrets. Two meson screens and two nuclear dampers are installed. The ship has stealth and armor 4. The ship's small craft include, in full hangars, four 30-ton ship's boats and five 10-ton maintenance pods. 44 G/carriers, 2 grav assault vehicles and 10 grav tanks are carried in bays. Cargo capacity is 266 tons.
Crew is a captain, first officer, 3 pilots, 3 navigators, 4 engineers, 58 gunners/screen operators, 4 medics, 13 boat crew, 9 flight mechanics, 495 marines. The ship costs MCr 2,873.
Last edited:
GT has bunkrooms, which displace 4 tons and can carry up to 16 people, although 4 is normal. In GT ship designs, they are almost never used for crew or paying passengers.
(and even then, the bunkrooms were considered controversial aspects of the game version)
Last edited:
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Transporting troops interstellar distances tends to be expensive; and trying to establish a beach head against a determined and dug in near peer opponent is likely suicidal.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Then don't.
Establish space superiority and then begin planetary bombardment.
A few rocks dropped on unpopulated areas, then a few dropped on military targets and then a couple of population centres wiped out and the planet either surrenders or you flatten it back to the stone age and then send in ground troops.
Worked for the Vilani for thousands of years...
Establish space superiority and then begin planetary bombardment.
A few rocks dropped on unpopulated areas, then a few dropped on military targets and then a couple of population centres wiped out and the planet either surrenders or you flatten it back to the stone age and then send in ground troops.
Worked for the Vilani for thousands of years...
a very effective means of planatary pacification...
an alternate method I worked up as the premise for a game....
1) establish local superiority in Oort cloud.
( try not to get detected for as long as possible)
2)wrangle up a few thousand smaller to mid sized rocks..or find a nice sized comet/asteroid and break it down as ammo.
3) send them in system in a swarm or stream
3) follow them in
4)enemy forces have two choices, divert forces to deal with impactors, or engage your ships.
5) if they come after your ships engage lightly and keep them busy while the rocks do their job.
6) if they go after the rocks take out enemy vessels piecemeal.
7) after impact us dust in upper atmosphere, confusion, and diversion of forces to disaster response to cover landings.
you wouldn't even have to use city buster sized rocks just a bunch of little ones to kick up dust, and cause major civil disturbance/unrest/panic.
of course if you can covertly insert the ships assembling the rock swarms and then send in yur warships when they are ready all the better.
My design was based in the CT:LBB4 numbers (page 33) for a reinforced battalion: 635 men. I assumed that those Marine battalions are reinforced in their TOE, due to the need to act independently in the first moments and the danger of their intended missions.
That's why I don't expect them to land in enemy troop concentration, but, using their orbital reccon advantage, to pick a spot where enemy troops will be at some days/hours of distance to establish the Beachhead (I guess they call it spacehead).
As said, if you have the option to bomb the planet until it's barren, you don't invade it (and so all said in this thread is void), but you offer them to sorrund or blast them and go for the next one. Yes, the Vilani did that for years, but they didn't have any power that could retaliate (and after all, many of their tactics will be seen as War Crimes by the Solomani).
I assume that, mostly for political reasons, there are some rules in the wars, maintanined mostly by the fear of retaliation, but abided nonetheless, and not nucking/blasting planets is clearly one of them.
Even in OTU, how many planets were so treated in any of the Frontier Wars, or in the Solomani War? I don't remember a single such event in 3I history before the Black War days in the Rebellion, and not because it lacked the capacity.
The closer I remember is the treatement Illelesh received after its revolt, and even then it was far from nucking the planet and its population.
Last edited:
Our difference in the number of men (about 140) is roughly one company or three platoons worth. I decided the ship can provide artillery support so didn't include any support company or platoons with rocket launchers or meson guns and I stripped the rifle companies of weapons platoons and added an engineer company, to get through defensive barriers. Was the battalion expected to operate without benefit of ship support, there would be an artillery company and three weapons platoons added, although finding room for them may be a task ...
I've never gave it so much thought, just assuming the numbers given in CT:LLB4 were somewhat of a "Imperial Standard". I assume the battalion is reinforced mostly with engineers/infantry, as is what I believe they will need the most in the first hours after landing.
I don't expect many support from the fleet, mostly from the fighters acting as close air support. Most fleet weapons (in fact, I'd say all but railguns, HE missiles and lasers) deliver radiation damage, so they may qualify as nuking, and I expect them to be used only where "tactical nukes" are worth to be used (and seen as such).
See that the 635 men battalion fits quite well in the troop transport (that can tansport 1300 men, so two of them and some extra people) and, if the somewhat cramped conditions of 3 troopers per dton are allowed (after all, a dton is about 4.5 m2 in most maps, so trooper density would be less than in the LCAs), more than a full battalion may fit into a Lander.
So, a 10 such battalion force (plus some extra people and about 1250 dtons worth of vehicles/supplies) could be carried in 5 troop transports and (without the vehicles/supplies, that would require another trip) landed in 2 trips by a command ship (assuming no Lander loses) while supported by its 30 fighters (plus any support other fleet elements can bring to bear). That's a respectable force against most planets (more so if you have some TL advantage) for such a small transport task force (6 ships amounting 30 kdton)...
Last edited:
CliffBates
SOC-12
Brandon your figure of 120 men in a company makes sense.. but in the OTU the Marine company has 59 men in a platoon, not 30.. and company has 4 platoons and a 8 man Company HQ making a total of 244 in Marine company (See JTAS no 12, pgs 42-45). And I assume the initial troops that assault and secure landing zones for the 2nd and other waves will be the Marines... (as per usual)...
Some of the best illustration in Traveller that deal with Jump Drops was TNE Smash and Grab (see page 119 for info on the TL 10 jump Mk 1 Drop Capsule)... even thought the ops in that book where more commando raids than invasions.
Last edited:
Space superiority doesn't get you the planet. It merely gets the planet to stop shooting you, and maybe send tribute.
It also has a tendency to make you more enemies in the long run, at least when anyone outside finds out.
And it destroys the thing most valuable about an inhabited planet - the habitat.
Further, it doesn't prevent locals from developing and running a 5th column.
