MGT Only: Planetary invasion ships

[CliffBates]

Space superiority doesn't get you the planet. It merely gets the planet to stop shooting you, and maybe send tribute.

It also has a tendency to make you more enemies in the long run, at least when anyone outside finds out.

And it destroys the thing most valuable about an inhabited planet - the habitat.

Further, it doesn't prevent locals from developing and running a 5th column.

Also, as Nietzsche quipped, what doesn't kill makes you stronger... That is to say that such actions might force evolutionary changes that makes them a much more dangerous people to deal with as when they find ways to get back at you you might have no defense about.

Look at the way the human viruses helped undermine the Vilani... Surely you are actually creating an environment that might actually produce new human strains that might generate new types of viruses that other humans have no resistance to.. yet...

 

[flykiller]

geez, I'd like to see that. I could barely fit a battalion into a 4900 dton module, let alone a 5000 dton j3 m3 ship.

IIRC you used a different design system...

it was a cargo module fitted for nothing but the marines and their support. is there a design system that is going to add in j3 m3 and still have a viable deployable recoverable supported battalion? or are they just a bunch of guys with lowberths and armor and you push them out the airlock saying "go get 'em, tiger!"?

 

[Condottiere]

Heinlein takes the position that overhead costs of transport remain more or less the same, regardless of whether you transport a platoon or regiment, since the navy has the passengers do minor maintenance.

That's because life support is such a major expense in Traveller.

 

[McPerth]

it was a cargo module fitted for nothing but the marines and their support. is there a design system that is going to add in j3 m3 and still have a viable deployable recoverable supported battalion? or are they just a bunch of guys with lowberths and armor and you push them out the airlock saying "go get 'em, tiger!"?

Well, depend what do you understand for "a viable deployable recoverable supported battalion". If the ships shown in the opening of this same thread do fit in this definition, then definitely there is (see that a troop transport can transport 2 battalions, though it canot deploy them, and a command ship can deploy 5 battalions at once...).

MgT:HG allows for barracks to transport troops at 2 dton per trooper, and, as said before, in MT you can transport them in bunks at 1 dton per trooper...

In such cramped conditions, maybe they are given fast drug to make it more bearable (and to save in life support costs)...

 

[Brandon C]

Well, depend what do you understand for "a viable deployable recoverable supported battalion". If the ships shown in the opening of this same thread do fit in this definition, then definitely there is (see that a troop transport can transport 2 battalions, though it canot deploy them, and a command ship can deploy 5 battalions ata once...).

For an invasion, rather than raid, I see two general types of battalions involved. The first is built to move quickly, with force, and secure a beachhead. The second then comes in an relieves them, being built less for an assault but more for normal operations. The marines probably handle the first job, the army the second.

Oh, I don't have JTAS #12. I do have Book 4: Mercenary, but it's several hundred miles away. I do have GT: Ground Forces at hand, but it uses the brigade (army) and regiment (marines) as it's basic unites, so it would take some work to scale them down to battalion level. Additionally, OTU units seem to be rather bloated, on par with pre-WWII units which proved to be too large.

 

[flykiller]

Well, depend what do you understand for "a viable deployable recoverable supported battalion".

ask yourself, "what would I want if it were me?" should tell you everything you need to know.

check my fleet battalion link.

MgT:HG allows for barracks to transport troops at 2 dton per trooper, and, as said before, in MT you can transport them in bunks at 1 dton per trooper...

... and the transport boats, with pilots (2 per). and the medical facility and ambulances. and the em/ecm support. and the heavy weapons and armor support. and the command and control structure, not to mention the physical comm structure. and the equipment lockers (or do they just store their combat armor or battledress under their bunks?). and the maintenance for all of that. not to mention some kind of assembly deck. not to mention simple office space (the commander has an office, right? how about his s1/s2/s3/s4?) not to mention flight control.

 

[McPerth]

For an invasion, rather than raid, I see two general types of battalions involved. The first is built to move quickly, with force, and secure a beachhead. The second then comes in an relieves them, being built less for an assault but more for normal operations. The marines probably handle the first job, the army the second.

Agreed, and the forces carried by those ships would be Marines, light troops to establish the beachhead and allow other forces can be landed in a more secure way.

Oh, I don't have JTAS #12. I do have Book 4: Mercenary, but it's several hundred miles away. I do have GT: Ground Forces at hand, but it uses the brigade (army) and regiment (marines) as it's basic unites, so it would take some work to scale them down to battalion level. Additionally, OTU units seem to be rather bloated, on par with pre-WWII units which proved to be too large.

I have LBB4 and all the JTAS, but I don't have GT:Ground Forces, so we have a problem to standarize our views .

In LBB4, the standard battalion is 452 troopers, while the reinforced one is 635 and the brigade 1500 (accoridng to page 33 table).

Another source may be the description of the 4518 Lift Infantry Regiment (in SMC) Tht gives us those strenghts and needs:

Unit	Officers	Troopers	Vehicles	Tonnage needed1
Lift Infantry	27	479	65	2312
Lift Cavalry	19	238	42	1354
Jump Battalion	27	423	27	1440

Note 1: tonnage is calculated as 2 dton per man (assuming barracks) and 20 dton per vehicle ​

See that the lift infantry battalions can fit its personnel at the rate of 2 battalions/ship, but most their vehicles should be taken in other ships (alternatively, by converting part of the barracks space for the vehicles, 1 battalion/ship), while the cavalry and jump troops battalions could fill at this rate, by converting part of the barracks space for vehicles (and using part of the cargo space).

And IIRC the battalions in WWII were a little larger...

 

[Brandon C]

I revised the marine line company, adding back a weapons platoon. However, since there really weren't any suitable artillery vehicles in MgT Supplement 6, I decided to use grav tanks, with a weapons platoon having 22 men, 4 grav tanks and 2 G/carriers. So, for a line battalion, this currently gives:

The marine battalion is 558 ready troops, with a 20 man HQ platoon in 2 G/Carriers, three line companies (each with 131 marines, and 12 G/Carriers and 4 grav tanks), a tank platoon (41 men, 10 grav tanks, 2 G/carriers and an engineer company (100 men in 10 G/carriers).

That comes to a total of 52 G/carriers and 22 grav tanks for the battalion, neither of which requires ammo. For the marines, I'm probably going with combat armor (rather than battledress) and plasma rifles.

I am considering replacing the tank platoon with a support platoon consisting of G/bombers and G/fighters (probably 6 G/bombers and 6 G/fighters).

 

[CliffBates]

Agreed, and the forces carried by those ships would be Marines, light tropos to establish the beachhead and allow other forces can be landed in a more secure way.



I have LBB4 and al lthe JTAS, but I don't have GT:Ground Forces, so we have a problem to standarize our views .

In LBB4, the standard battalion is 452 troopers, while the reinforced one is 635 and the brigade 1500 (accoridng to page 33 table).

Another source may be the description of the 4518 Lift Infantry Regiment (in SMC) Tht gives us those strenghts and needs:

Unit	Officers	Troopers	Vehicles	Tonnage needed1
Lift Infantry	27	479	65	2312
Lift Cavalry	19	238	42	1354
Jump Battalion	27	423	27	1440

Note 1: tonnage is calculated as 2 dton per man (assuming barracks) and 20 dton per vehicle ​

See that the lift infantry battalions can fit its personnel at the rate of 2 battalions/ship, but most their vehicles should be taken in other ships (alternatively, by converting part of the barracks space for the vehicles, 1 battalion/ship), while the cavalry and jump tropos battalions could fill at this rate, by converting part of the barracks space for vehicles (and using part of the cargo space).

And IIRC the battalions in WWII were a little larger...

I got GT: Ground Forces.. and I got it after how I really liked Interstellar Wars and realized they were under the editorship of Loren Wiseman who wrote the piece in the JTAS on the Marines.

Grav Vehicles (if they are sealed) can descend under their own power--facing the fire from the ground that the enemy throws at them.

I found this little strange booklet entitle "Orbital Assault and Landing Craft" Set Number Seven of Imperial Armed Forces Vehicle Guide Altair Sub Sector. Published in 1992 by the Adjutant (RM-90-07) Mark Schmidt, copyright M.S.Graphics 1992.

 

[McPerth]

My take on those Marines is more like Heinlein's Starship Troopers (but with gravitics on it). As such, they are usually equiped with grav belt equiped battledress, and that makes little need for vehicles in first line (they are moslty for supply).

So, the Marines are mostly infantry, leaving the vehicles only for heavy support (artillery) and support (supply, medical, etc.). Some tank units exist, but they are not for the first landings. See that in LBB4 Marines can only enter in Infantry and Support...

 

[flykiller]

My take on those Marines is more like Heinlein's Starship Troopers

any operation that warrants a troop insertion warrants supported troops, not drop-ins.

 

[Brandon C]

My take on those Marines is more like Heinlein's Starship Troopers (but with gravitics on it). As such, they are usually equiped with grav belt equiped battledress, and that makes little need for vehicles in first line (they are moslty for supply).

In GT: Ground Forces, the army's Rapid Interface Battalion is along these lines. 513 troops in battledress, armed with FGMPs, and using drop capsules instead of G/carriers.

 

[McPerth]

any operation that warrants a troop insertion warrants supported troops, not drop-ins.

That's why they are not droped, but landed in the landers (along with needed supplies) and supported by the fighters.

What I meant was the fact that their combat power is nearly all BD equiped infantry, as in Starship Troopers (I don't recall any reference to tanks there, aside from when comparing them with the dress). In most other aspects they act diferently, not in small part due to the use of gravitics.

In GT: Ground Forces, the army's Rapid Interface Battalion is along these lines. 513 troops in battledress, armed with FGMPs, and using drop capsules instead of G/carriers.

That's what I had in mind (while numbers may vary and FGMP would not be the main infantry weapon due to MgT making them de facto nukes)

 

[mike wightman]

If you are talking TL15 vs TL15 forget landing troops until you have achieved total space superiority and then rendered every meson sled and deep meson gun on the planet into slag.

Your combat landers are destroyed with one meson blast - how many MCr and troops is that lost?

Drop capsules make some sort of sense in the face of that since they can be dispersed enough that one meson gun can only kill one capsule, and if you have lots of decoys then some may make it to the ground.

Mind you if you haven't hammered their local point defence then the capsules would all be knocked out by rapid pulse lasers or fusion guns.

 

[CliffBates]

In GT: Ground Forces, the army's Rapid Interface Battalion is along these lines. 513 troops in battledress, armed with FGMPs, and using drop capsules instead of G/carriers.

Yes, the first few waves, the infantry hits the ground via drop capsules. But the Vehicle, esp the tanks and the artillery sleds are rather useful to help deal with armor.

 

[CliffBates]

If you are talking TL15 vs TL15 forget landing troops until you have achieved total space superiority and then rendered every meson sled and deep meson gun on the planet into slag.

Your combat landers are destroyed with one meson blast - how many MCr and troops is that lost?

Drop capsules make some sort of sense in the face of that since they can be dispersed enough that one meson gun can only kill one capsule, and if you have lots of decoys then some may make it to the ground.

Mind you if you haven't hammered their local point defence then the capsules would all be knocked out by rapid pulse lasers or fusion guns.

Yes it would be suicidal to mount a planetary invasion if you did not chase off his fleet and remove most of the High Orbital defenses.

The problem with the point defense is that once they open up, the orbital counter batteries would light them up or drop lots of ortilerary on them.

 

[whartung]

If you are talking TL15 vs TL15 forget landing troops until you have achieved total space superiority and then rendered every meson sled and deep meson gun on the planet into slag.

Yea, one of the great inconsistencies w/Striker vs the space combat rules.

In Striker, anything in the blast radius of a Meson gun is on fire or destroyed, including vehicles.

And the radius of many of the sled were pretty large (25 yards), that's a big chunk a a Free Trader or even a DD or CE that happens to be on the ground.

 

[savage]

In the Warships in a Small Ship Universe thread it was discussed about the dificulties for planetary landings and invasions.

Here I'll give some ships specially designed for such a mission, using the constrains given by Brandon C in his Capital ship design in a small ship setting (though using Core computers for large ships, for the reasons I gave there), as I understand it was at least partially what sparked the discussions.

See that those ships are not desoigned to act independently, as they are specialized for the troops' transport and landings (and some support), but need the rest of the fleet to achieve orbital superiority and to deffend them, as well as other transports for the supplies, etc...

Kinunir had drop capsules for light assaults. Not every planet has 7 billion people. Most are sparse.
I believe someone eluded to Gurps having the Caen dropship and Keith Transports.

Also, perishable supplies (food water, etc). In T20 we tracked that sort of thing. Unless their Vikings, taking as they go, they'll need shelter (from an environment tent to a merc. cruiser).

 

[kilemall]

On the invasion/close-in point....

http://www.history.navy.mil/researc...-alphabetically/d/destroyers-at-normandy.html

 

[Brandon C]

I prefer ...