Planetary Navies and Starports

[atpollard]

Moved from the Topic "Odd Starports"

Those rules sections don't say that having a shipyard makes it a class A starport. They say that a Class A starport has a shipyard. There's a difference, you know. And if you'll pardon me for sounding just a little exasperated, that's the point I've made three times already!

If what you said was true, governments would not be able to build starships on worlds with class B-E starports. But HG clearly and specifically states that they can. You even quoted that yourself!

So, once again, I ask:

"So what's the difference between a world with a Class A starport where the government can get ships built and a world with a Class E starport where the government can get ships built? It's obviously not that one has a shipyard and the other one hasn't."​

Hans

Hans,
I promised you an in-depth response and here it is:

QUESTION: “What is the difference between a world with a Class A starport where the government can get ships built, and a world with a Class E starport where the government can get ships built?”

Starport Type: Many worlds have starports, their presence being essential to interstellar trade and commerce. Each world must be checked for its starport type; throw two dice for each world in the subsector, and mark the world with the letter indicated on the system contents table.

The system contents table indicates one specific distribution of starports as a basis for starmapping. Just as the distribution of stars can be altered (as indicated in world occurrence), the referee is also free to create other starport distributions.

Starports are further described in the starport types table. In many cases, starports will be accompanied by naval or scout bases, and will have a wide range of facilities. In nearly all cases, a planet will consider that a starport is extraterritorial, and not subject to local law, but will also enforce strict entrance and exit controls.

Starting with “What is a star port?”, the above quote makes it clear that Starports are “essential to interstellar trade and commerce” and “will be accompanied by naval or scout bases”. Starports are commercial rather than military in function, since military ‘bases’ are provided IN ADDITION to the starport. Note also that Starports are “extraterritorial, and not subject to local law”. The local government does not control the starport! The Imperial Government does.

This alone is enough to answer part of your question. The class of the starport has no bearing on the manufacture, repair or maintenance of the ships of the Planetary Navy because the Planetary Navy has no control over it. The Planetary Government and Navy must, therefore, operate and maintain one or more facilities, under Planetary control to build, repair and maintain their defense force.

While this explains the disconnect between Starport Type and the Planetary Navy reflected in the quote:

The Imperial Navy may procure ships of up to tech level 15, although it also procures vessels at tech levels 10 through 14. A subsector navy may procure ships at any shipyards within its borders. A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

It does not fully address what a starport is.

Interstellar travel is priced on the basis of accommodations; prices cover a trip from starport to starport, encompassing one jump, regardless of length.

Starport: The various starport types are intended to provide a variety of facilities for use in trade or survey missions. Starports provide fuel or construction yards.

Bases: The tables provide for scout and naval bases at some worlds. These bases serve as points for scout and naval veterans to renew acquaintances with old friends, to find potential patrons, and to scrounge or buy surplus equipment of use to them. The referee may elect to include other types of bases, perhaps army bases, merchant exploration or trade bases, and defense establishments.

Note the list of functions which define starports:
1. Trade facilities (People and Goods travel from Starport to starport)
2. Survey Facilities
3. Fuel
4. Construction Yards

Note also that the referee “may elect to include other types of bases” (including defense establishments) reinforces our earlier conclusion about Planetary Navy bases being distinct and separate from Starports.

STARPORT TYPES
Type
Description

A
Excellent quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual maintenance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of constructing starships and non-starships present. Naval base and/or scout base may be present.

B
Good quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual maintenance overhaul available. Shipyard capable of constructing non-starships present. Naval base and/or scout base may be present.

C
Routine quality installation. Only unrefined fuel available. Reasonable repair facilities present. Scout base may be present.

D
Poor quality installation. Only unrefined fuel available. No repair or shipyard facilities present. Scout base may be present.

E
Frontier installation. Essentially a marked spot of bedrock with no fuel, facilities, or bases present.

X
No starport. No provision is made for any ship landings.

Let us briefly examine the above Starport definitions in terms of the earlier list of functions which define starports:

Trade and Survey Facilities – Not available at class X or class E, but available at class A through class D.

Fuel – Not available at class X or class E, but available at class A through class D. The addition of some facilities and some fuel are the defining traits that separates a class D from a class E starport. (Note that some sources and versions of Traveller allow for the availability of unrefined fuel at a class E starport – which makes sense to me since a even a simple lake qualifies as a source of unrefined fuel. That would leave only the ‘facilities’ as the defining trait that differentiates a class D from a class E starport.)

Construction Yards – Not available at class X, class E or class D starports. The addition of some “construction yard” (in the form of “Reasonable repair facilities”) appears to be the defining trait that elevates a class D starport to class C. The addition of full blown construction facilities for Non-Starships (MD but no JD) upgrades it to a class B starport, and construction facilities for Starships upgrades it to a class A starport.

Space ships are constructed and sold at shipyards throughout the galaxy. Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including a starship with jump drives; any class B starport can build a small craft and ships which do not have jump drives. The military procures vessels through these yards, corporations buy their commercial vessels from these shipyards, and private individuals can purchase ships that they have designed through them as well. The major restriction on the purchase of ships is money.

Per the above quote, Class A and B starports HAVE shipyards. Since the Starport is both Commercial and Non-Local Government Controlled, it seems reasonable that this applies to the starport shipyard as well. The statement “The military procures vessels through these yards” could be interpreted to contradict the view of planetary Governments operating their own naval shipyards, or it could be interpreted to refer to “A subsector navy may procure ships at any shipyards within its borders. A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its subsector” and NOT “a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.” [from HG, page 20]

I hope that this sufficiently covers the issue. YMMV

 

[Jame]

I've never understood why a class-C port would not have refined fuel, or be able to construct nonstarships up to about 400 tons.

 

[robject]

So, in effect, a starport is an extra-territorial base for supporting interstellar traffic.

 

[far-trader]

Adding <one word> I'd say pretty much so...

So, in effect, a starport is an extra-territorial base for supporting <Commercial> interstellar traffic.

Though since Class E and Class X aren't bases in any real sense (certainly Class X isn't), and it's more an advisory guide put out by TAS (iirc), I'd call it more a rating of how well served the system is for/by Commercial interstellar traffic.

 

[atpollard]

I've never understood why a class-C port would not have refined fuel, or be able to construct nonstarships up to about 400 tons.

In some later versions, a Class C starport does have refined fuel (as well as IMTU), but that is clearly a personal choice for each Ref.

In a JTAS article for CT (and in Mongoose Traveller) a class C starport may build smallcraft. This fits with other CT rules that state that Class A, B and C starports have shuttles from the planet to orbit. It would be nice for the Class C starport to build them locally.

In my opinion, the size of craft produced would be limited more by the size of the available workforce - suggesting a relationship between population of the world and the maximum size of ships produced there. But that is structly an MTU opinion and the rules seem quiet on that point.

 

[atpollard]

Though since Class E and Class X aren't bases in any real sense (certainly Class X isn't), and it's more an advisory guide put out by TAS (iirc), I'd call it more a rating of how well served the system is for/by Commercial interstellar traffic.

I view a class E starport like those small private airfields surrounded by houses with garages for private aircraft - class E has nobody 'in charge' but invites you to go ahead and land if you want to. A Class X starport rating is more like a sign that says "TRESSPASSERS WILL BE SHOT ON SIGHT" and "SURVIVORS WILL BE PROSECUTED."

 

[far-trader]

Remind me to never visit one of your Class X worlds

My take on E and X is:

E - The IISS has surveyed the world, an appropriate commerical landing site has been chosen, suitable for all local, environmental, and stability reasons. Though the world doesn't rate an actual Starport installation the IISS has left a marker beacon to guide landings and broadcast the world's membership as Imperial and note the extratrality of the area around the beacon.

For examples think dirt strip landing fields in outback regions that rarely see an airplane and when one does fly in locals gather to see what it brought, maybe even to trade.

X - The IISS has made a survey of the world but for whatever reason it has been deemed it should not to be landed on. No reasons are specified and visitors would be well advised to not attempt a landing. Beyond whatever good reason(s) the IISS saw fit for not allowing commercial/civilian traffic landing, there is no marked site so you could very well sink in soft ground upon landing, park in the middle of a (not so) dormant volcano, land on a sinkhole and be swallowed up, leave the ship in the middle of a flood channel and find only a wet spot where the ship was when you return, etc., etc.

Class X is land at your own (implied serious) peril. The only thing in aviation it is akin to is maybe an emergency landing, in the sense that there is no good place to land, but it usually beats crashing.

 

[atpollard]

Remind me to never visit one of your Class X worlds (hang a tick, wrong button pushed... edit mode engaged)

I find it hard to explain any other way a high tech (greater than TL0) culture that can't select an open field or rock outcropping for starships to land on and trade goods.

 

[far-trader]

I find it hard to explain any other way a high tech (greater than TL0) culture that can't select an open field or rock outcropping for starships to land on and trade goods.

Yeah, I can see Xenophobes, at least as one possible reason.

There's many, Interdiction for another often applies too. The Imperium doesn't want you landing there so they aren't going to encourage it by setting up a commercial Starport.

Environmental can cover a whole host of fun too.

Or maybe there's just no commercial value to setting up a Starport. Sure the world has people enjoying a moderate level of life but nobody wants to go there and the locals don't want to leave or have anything to trade.

 

[Whipsnade]

I've never understood why a class-C port would not have refined fuel, or be able to construct nonstarships up to about 400 tons.

Jame,

If a Class C starport did have refined fuel and could construct spaceships or any size, it would be a Class B starport.

Starports aren't built to the labels, that is no one says "Let's build a Class C port!". What happens is a port is built or additions made are and then the SPA/IISS investigates, inspects, and eventually decides which of the six labels available best fit the results. You can build to Class C specifications, but whether those specs are actually met or not and whether or not your port will receive a Class C rating is not up to you at all.

People also keep confusing the label with size. While size is loosely coupled to capability and capability is the prime determinant of a starport's class, each class can and does include a huge range of sizes. I regularly point out in threads of this nature that simply because a starport is classified as being able to build starships, it doesn't necessarily follow that said starport can build any type of starship at any given moment.


Regards,
Bill

 

[robject]

A base is generally closed to the public, right? Naval base, military garrison, scout way station, corporate base, etc.

So, perhaps standalone bases are locally owned and operated.

A starport is the public part of an extra-territorial base complex: attached bases are extra-territorial, but are closed to the public. Starports support interstellar traffic; survey missions, commercial freighters, government transports, and military squadrons can and do call at starport facilities.

What are the capabilities of bases? Is a Naval base essentially a private class A starport? Is a Scout base essentially a privae class C starport? (Of course, they must have their own additional facilities as well, such as special security needs).

And some bases aren't starportlike at all. Research bases, garrisons, and prisons, for instance.

I don't think I can infer very much about bases.

 

[robject]

Adding <one word> I'd say pretty much so...

So, in effect, a starport is an extra-territorial base for supporting <Commercial> interstellar traffic.

And survey missions. And military ships call at starports as well, even if a naval or scout base is not present. And emissaries from other governments. And nobility. So I prefer to omit the "commercial" (even though that may well be the primary benefit).

 

[robject]

People also keep confusing the label with size. While size is loosely coupled to capability and capability is the prime determinant of a starport's class, each class can and does include a huge range of sizes. I regularly point out in threads of this nature that simply because a starport is classified as being able to build starships, it doesn't necessarily follow that said starport can build any type of starship at any given moment.


Regards,
Bill

SO true. What do you suppose the port size and shipyard capacity was for the class A starport on Fulacin? Small I'd wager; all it had to do was overhaul the jump drives on a half-dozen Shivvas... It's already odd to put a Class A port in the middle of nowhere; if it was built to support an entire Fleet someone might ask too many questions...

 

[morfydd]

A base is generally closed to the public, right? Naval base, military garrison, scout way station, corporate base, etc.

So, perhaps standalone bases are locally owned and operated.

A starport is the public part of an extra-territorial base complex: attached bases are extra-territorial, but are closed to the public. Starports support interstellar traffic; survey missions, commercial transports, and military squadrons can call at starport facilities.

What are the capabilities of bases? Is a Naval base essentially a private class A starport? Is a Scout base essentially a privae class C starport? (Of course, they must have their own additional facilities as well, such as special security needs).

And some bases aren't starportlike at all. Research bases, garrisons, and prisons, for instance.

I don't think I can infer very much about bases.

Okay odds are a Naval Depot is not near the mainwolrd in the system and is defiantly Navy only..Its tech level will be that of the fleet its servicing Not the Tech level of the System its in..<they may use local labor but...>

Naval Base..May have a portion near the starport .. thou odds are it has its own Highport ..thats well guarded and defiantly has its own repair and yard facilities..

 

[morfydd]

Naval Depot

a Depot is a large depository and refit and repair facility able to sustain the largest ship's in a fleet...probably located near a fuel source as a satellite (artificial or otherwise) of a gas giant if one is present..or other fuel source..probably in the far system..not likely to be on the main world or even near it ..since having a mothballed fleet a few tenders and a couple squadrons of large battle riders and some really large yard rigs (capable of building the largest ships in a navy and refitting them) would interfere with the star port. (read liberty call for the naval and marine personnel at the base)..large weapon stock piles (Extreamly well guarded)
Will most likely be refitting a squadron at any given time
Its tech level has to be that of the fleet not the home wolrd it is defiantly not open to the public..

Note: a Naval Base may also be located with the starport ..thou the Naval vessels will most likely head to the depot..since you cannot refit a Tigress on the surface...

 

[atpollard]

Naval Base..May have a portion near the starport .. thou odds are it has its own Highport ..thats well guarded and defiantly has its own repair and yard facilities..

I read somewhere that the Navy likes big honkin ships that are mobile class A shipyards. The yard follows the fleet (at a safe distance).

 

[morfydd]

Naval Base

Navy bases are generally located near or adjacent to the port ..they have their own security are not open to the public..They will also have their own refit capability and enough yard capacity to handle Most escort /frigate/destroyer class ships..the tech level of a naval base will be at least the Average Tech level of the fleet. (regardless of local tech level)

 

[morfydd]

I read somewhere that the Navy likes big honkin ships that are mobile class A shipyards. The yard follows the fleet (at a safe distance).

Well I have seen in real life sub and destroyer tenders, mobile drydocks etc..but they are capable of handeling the escort vessels easier than the Big Battle Boys and I just dont see a Tigress gettign any major repair from a tender (a nice Frigate Might but I Doubt a Dreadnaught can be fully reapired by any mobile system..

 

[morfydd]

Garrisons

Elite Garrisons will be at every Naval Base and contain at least a battalion
A depot will have at least a regiment of Elites. (they will have the same tech level as the fleet they are associated with)

The world itself may have its own elite garrison and it will be armed to the tech level of that world.

Soldier Garrisons..For Imperial Soldier garrisons figure Tech 13 for other Empires figure one to two techs lower than their Fleet. (they get the elites obsolete Gear)

For local Soldier Garrisons Figure one to two tech levels below main world Tech.

 

[morfydd]

Scout Way Station

Scout Way Station is much like a Naval Depot will be several squadrons in moth balls refit facilites to handle the largest scout craft capable of building vessels at the max tech of the empire in question..and refitting them..many at one time
security will be extreame.. and well these are scouts don't even think about sneaking in..will be near a gas giant or other easy source of fuel ..proably not near the main world ..probably in the outer system..

a small scout base will proably be adjacent to the starport as well..

Tech level will be Max for the Empire in question ..regardless of local tech