Post your MgT2 errata

[AnotherDilbert]

This should be omitted, as we don't need to calculate the difficulty of combat tasks, as Expert programs only work for INT and EDU skills. Combat skills are all DEX based.

It's not quite that easy.

A ship running an Intellect program and Expert Pilot can act as the pilot.

Pilot is neither Int nor Edu based.

I believe it works this way:

Expert software packages mimic skills.

A Traveller using Expert may make a skill check as if he had the skill at the software’s Bandwidth -1. Only INT and EDU-based checks can be attempted.

If a Traveller already has the skill, then Expert grants DM+1 to his check.

In other words, if you don't have the skill you can only attempt Int and Edu checks, but if you have the skill you can get a DM+1 on any check.

In such case this makes sense:

Having a tool or weapon with the appropriate Skill Expert program and an Intelligent Interface can grant a Traveller DM+1 to his checks.

Intelligent Weapon can probably be combined with Specialised Computer:

Specialised Computer: A computer can be designed for a specific purpose, which gives it a Processing Score of +1 or +2 higher for that software only.

allowing it to run Intelligent Interface and Expert, at least at TL13+.

 

[Grognard]

OK, yeah that argument makes sense.

At TL 11 I can add Intelligent to my ACR, giving it Computer/0 for Cr1,000. At Computer 0 we don't have enough bandwidth to run an expert program. So, we upgrade that computer (Specialised +2), to Computer/2 for an additional 50% or +Cr500. Now we can add Intelligent Interface (cx1) Cr100 and Expert-1 Gun Combat (cx1) Cr1,000.

For a total cost of Cr2,600 anyone with Gun Combat skill can take a +1 DM with the smart weapon.
(Why not just increase the cost of Intelligent weapon and have it provide the +1. A lot less work)

If our shooter doesn't have any Gun Combat and they pick up a smart Gun, (Intelligent Weapon) they get no benefit, as the Weapon cant make DEX checks. It would however assist with a repair or modification roll which may be INT or EDU.

At TL 13 the computer can be upgraded to Computer/1 for Cr5,000.

At TL 13 we add Intelligent to the ACR, giving it Computer/1 for Cr5,000. At Computer 1 we still don't have enough bandwidth to run an expert program. So, we upgrade that computer (Specialized +1), to Computer/2 for an additional 25% or +Cr1,250. Now we can add Intelligent Interface (cx1) Cr100 and Expert-1 Gun Combat (cx1) Cr1,000.

At TL 13, For a total cost of Cr7,350 anyone with Gun Combat skill can still only take a +1 DM with the smart weapon. Adding Expert2 or Expert3 serves no advantage, other than repair attempts. (Which the price of the software is more than the weapon!)

Whats the advantage to a TL13 Computer/1 over a TL11 Computer/0? The TL 11 Computer/0 gets the same DM for less than half the TL13 price!!
Did I miss anything??

So, I say again, why make the players sort all that out, just note that a Smart Weapon costs Cr 2,500 at TL11 and provides a +1 DM to any skilled user?

 

[Grognard]

Computers
Pg. 105

We have listings for Coms on page 102, and Portable Computers on Pg 105.

What about non portable computers?

A TL9 Portable Computer/1 Costs Cr100.

A TL 10 Mobile Communicator with Computer/1 Costs Cr500.

A TL 13 *Communicator (1,000km) with an integral Computer/1 costs Cr250.

What about a Non-portable, non-mobile computer? Are Starship Computers from High Guard our only option?

* Note on pg 105 Option Comm TL8+. "Any computer of TL8+ can act as a com unit or transceiver, if specified at purchase. This does not increase the cost of the computer.
Ummm.. So why does the TL13 Com with Computer cost more than the computer alone?

Why buy a TL13 Com for Cr250, when I can buy a TL 9 Portable computer that does the same thing for Cr150 less?

One might argue that the TL9 computer Com would be limited by the ranges listed by TL on Pg 102. BUT on that table, the TL9 com has 2,500km range, WHICH IS LONGER THAN THE TL 13 one!

Also NOTE that the entry at TL9 for 500km com w/o computer costs Cr500, but the TL9 Com WITH A computer/0 gets a longer range (2,500km) and costs Cr4,500 more? This makes zero sense! AGAIN, just buy the TL9 computer for CR100 and specify a com unit. IT DOES THE SAME THING FOR A FRACTION OF THE PRICE!

Someone didn't do their homework when they edited this.

How much is a com, and what are its capabilities?
How much is the computer?

Why don't they align?

 

[Grognard]

Pilot is neither Int nor Edu based.

if you don't have the skill you can only attempt Int and Edu checks, but if you have the skill you can get a DM+1 on any check.

What about an AI?

Pg. 106

Intellect Programs.

"Intellect is an improved Agent which can use Expert Systems."
The example:

A Computer (Robot) doctor With Intellect/1 And Expert Medic/3 - Could perform medical tasks, as the Expert program Provides a Medic Skill of 2. But is it limited to INT and EDU tasks? By the rules, Id say yes.
Does that mean it is limited to diagnosis? I would expect that surgery would be a DEX task.

What about a computer (ROBOT) pilot? No skill, therefore no DEX tasks.

 

[Grognard]

The cost is still only 0.1% per year.

Starship Maintenance.

If my Ship costs 10MCr my Annual maintenance is Cr10,000.

Divide that by 12, my monthly Maintenance is 833/mo.

If I have my crew perform mx every month and spent Cr833, when I get to the end of the year, I have spent my Cr10,00 and have no mx budget remaining for the Annual service.

If I do the annual service at the beginning of the year, for Cr10,000, I have no budget for the monthly mx. If I don't ALSO do monthly maintenance, I run the risk of suffering a mishap. Pg. 145. (7- to avoid a mishap on 2D/ month skipped, DM + number of months skipped)

"Repairs and Maintenance: A ship needs maintenance, which costs 0.1% of the total purchase price of the ship per year.
Maintenance should be carried out each month (divide the year’s maintenance cost by 12 to find the monthly cost.
Once per year this should be performed at a shipyard."

Ill take the "Once per year" to mean ONE monthly maintenance service per year should be done in a Starport." Or what? What if it isn't? Poor writing.

 

[Condottiere]

Mongoose didn't come up on this percentage on their own.

That figure has been around since the beginning.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What about an AI?

I think AIs can use any skill.

Exhibit A:

A ship running an Intellect program and Expert Pilot can act as the pilot.

(Pilot does not seem to be connected to any particular characteristic.)


Contrived rules-lawyering:

A Traveller using Expert may make a skill check as if he had the skill at the software’s Bandwidth -1. Only INT and EDU-based checks can be attempted.

Only Travellers (people) are limited...

Intellect is an improved Agent, which can use Expert systems. For example, a robot doctor might be running Intellect/1 and Expert Medic/3, giving it a Medic skill of 2.

An AI is considered to have the skill...

 

[Grognard]

Pilot is neither Int nor Edu based.

It's not quite that easy.
Originally Posted by Core, p155
A ship running an Intellect program and Expert Pilot can act as the pilot.


+.

Automated Duties
A ship’s computer can cover several duties if it is running the appropriate software.
• Fire Control programs can either act as gunners or assist gunners.
• A ship equipped with repair drones and Auto-Repair software can act as damage control.
• A ship running an Intellect program and Expert Engineer (j-drive, m-drive or power) can act as an engineer.
• A ship running an Intellect program and Expert Pilot can act as the pilot.

But this breaks the rule that states an Expert Program doesnt allow an unskilled user to make anything other than INT and EDU task checks.

Internal rules are inconsistent and incompatible with themselves.

"IF" a ship computer is equipped with Expert and Intellect software is allowed to make DEX checks, such as Pilot, does it still get to test at Expert level -1?

If a computer can, why cant a human?

Human with no skill using an Expert Interface gets Expert-1 for INT and EDU tasks only.
Robot with no skill using an Expert Interface gets Expert 1 for all tasks?

Color me unimpressed.


Should a computer be able to make Dex checks if it doesnt even have a DEX to test?

How does an Intellect/Expert going to make a DEX test for piloting if it doesnt have a DEX stat!?!

Despite what the book says on Pg 155 (obviously no one read it during pre-publish editing) Duties may be automated, but since a ship computer cannot actually Pilot or effect repairs (It has no arms, legs or hands and no DEX score!) It can merely provide diagnosis and advice. I liken it to SIRI GPS on your phone. That's your pilot program.

Worth the price? DOubtful

 

[Grognard]

Mongoose didn't come up on this percentage on their own.

That figure has been around since the beginning.

True. If you go waaay back to CT, the maintenance was the same price, paid once annually.

No one is arguing the price.

At some point, someone decided maintenance should be done monthly, but didn't account for the annual refit.

IMHO the easiest fix is to have 50% of the annual maintenance done once annually at a starport, and the other 50% spread out over 12 months.

 

[Grognard]

An AI is considered to have the skill...

Not in the example presented on Pg 106 under intellect software....

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If my Ship costs 10MCr my Annual maintenance is Cr10,000.

Divide that by 12, my monthly Maintenance is 833/mo.

If I have my crew perform mx every month and spent Cr833, when I get to the end of the year, I have spent my Cr10,00 and have no mx budget remaining for the Annual service.

All maintenance, both monthly and annual, cost kCr 10 together, regardless of when you actually pay.


Even LBB2 suggests that you set aside money for maintenance every jump:

Maintenance Fund In anticipation

 

[Grognard]

I'm just highlighting the stuff that's obvious.


Lots of things just aren't even mentioned, other than in passing.

Poor writing.
Poor editing.
Poor play testing.

Thankfully I can resort to earlier editions to fill the gaps.

I feel sorry for the new guy who picks this up expecting to play it as is.

D

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How does an Intellect/Expert going to make a DEX test for piloting if it doesnt have a DEX stat!?!

Despite what the book says on Pg 155 (obviously no one read it during pre-publish editing) Duties may be automated, but since a ship computer cannot actually Pilot or effect repairs (It has no arms, legs or hands and no DEX score!) It can merely provide diagnosis and advice. I liken it to SIRI GPS on your phone. That's your pilot program.

Given that a computer can drive any modern car, since all controls are computer controlled anyway, I think it's likely future starships can be computer controlled too.

Neither computers nor robots have DEX scores, hence no DEX DM, so can't add any DEX DM to any skill checks.


For repairs there are repair drones (HG, p40):

 

[AnotherDilbert]

An AI is considered to have the skill...

Not in the example presented on Pg 106 under intellect software....

In the example the AI explicitly has the skill:

Intellect is an improved Agent, which can use Expert systems. For example, a robot doctor might be running Intellect/1 and Expert Medic/3, giving it a Medic skill of 2.

 

[Grognard]

All maintenance, both monthly and annual, cost kCr 10 together, regardless of when you actually pay.


Even LBB2 suggests that you set aside money for maintenance every jump:

Are you even following the discussion??

LBB2 ONLY REQUIRES MX to be DONE ONCE ANNUALLY. It costs Cr10k.

If it isn't done, every month increases the chance of misjump.

In Mongoose, Its required to be done MONTHLY and once ANNUALLY. Same price Cr10k.

So If I pay Cr833 each month, the annual is free?

C'mon..math isn't that hard.

 

[Grognard]

In the example the AI explicitly has the skill:

Only considered to have the skill DUE TO THE EXPERT Program -1. (It has Expert-3 which gives Expert-2). IF the AI already had the skill, the EXPERT program would only provide a +1 DM. We have covered this already.

I don't see anything that excepts the rule that an Expert program can perform any task other than INT and EDU.

And Drones would have their Own DEX to effect repairs.

 

[Grognard]

Given that a computer can drive any modern car, since all controls are computer controlled anyway, I think it's likely future starships can be computer controlled too.

Really?! Your car can be driven by a computer? How? Since the brake pedal, and steering wheel are mechanical, requiring physical manipulation, I'm not sure how that happens.

Can your laptop drive your modern car?

Thats the dumbest thing you've said yet. We are getting there with self-driving cars, but they require some mechanical manipulation to do so. Hence...ding ding ding... a DEX score.

But, we are not discussing robots yet, just computers.

And the Mongoose rules as written DO NOT ALLOW for an AUTOPILOT or any other type of computer automation that does anything other than INT or EDU tasks.

Despite what the Automated Duties paragraph says, (As none of it is actually supported by game rules) A computer cannot act as an Engineer or Pilot or Gunner, EXCEPT for those tasks that are INT or EDU related. Perhaps "Act as the pilot" doesnt mean making skill task checks and means something else???

So Unless there is a rule revision, as the rules are written currently a computer cannot fire a turret with DEX, nor Pilot a ship with DEX, nor effect a repair with STR.

It CAN, provide a DM for a human pilot, gunner or engineer. It CAN diagnose damage. It CAN do any Pilot, Engineer or Gunner task that is EDU or INT related.

 

[Grognard]

Given that a computer can drive any modern car, since all controls are computer controlled anyway, I think it's likely future starships can be computer controlled too.

Neither computers nor robots have DEX scores, hence no DEX DM, so can't add any DEX DM to any skill checks.


For repairs there are repair drones (HG, p40):

Can a modern warship or container ship be completely controlled by a computer? Remotely?

Right, So I agree that at TL 11+ A starship should be able to automate some tasks. Repairs are already covered satisfactorily with computer controlled drones.

For Gunnery, I don't really see an issue, just the way the rules read.

For Pilot, again should a computer be allowed to pilot starship? Sure!

So, in the interest of fixing the rules as written, how is this overcome?

Should a starship computer with Expert/1 at TL11 and Expert/3 at TL13 be allowed to pilot a starship? Fire a Turret?

If we allow it, it certainly gives the advantage to the AI.

Rules as written, Our starhand with no pilot or gunnery with computer assist could not get enough assist to actually pilot the ship or shoot the Turret with any skill, as they are both DEX tests. So Starhand gets the untrained penalty. DEX DM, -3 untrained DM.

Our AI, on the other hand which is really just the ships computer, Would provide at best a Pilot-0 or Guner-0 at TL11, and Pilot-2 or Gunner-2 at TL 13. Thats the max Expert at those TLs. (AT TL 13, our computer will be better than a physical operator with Skill-1, assuming no advantageous DEX DM)

Soooo...at TL 13, IF WE ALLOW computers to make DEX tasks, the computer pilot software outperforms most physical pilots, for waaaay cheaper over the long run. I do not think this is a viable alternative.

Suggestion 1: like the drone requirement for Automated repairs, in order to automate ship functions there must be a further "conversion cost" for system manipulators. Perhaps a tonnage and cost requirement.

Suggestion 2: Allow computer Expert programs to do DEX based tasks but at one additional Difficulty Limitation. (See Expert Skill MAx difficulty on pg 107)

Expert/1 could only do Pilot or Gunnery tasks of Average (8+) or less etc.
(Thats not a bad rule) And of course they get no DEX DMs as they don't have a DEX.
Alternately we could simply apply a -3 DM for having DEX 0. (Thats only slightly more difficult than the extra Difficulty limitation)

Suggestion 3: I only have two LOL

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Are you even following the discussion??

Petty insults aside cost is not the same as when you pay.

Cost is incurred when you use something.
Expense is when you pay for it.
https://www.accountingcoach.com/blog/cost-expense

You may buy and pay in advance for a few year's worth of maintenance supply for the monthly maintenance in advance, the cost is still the same per year.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How? Since the brake pedal, and steering wheel are mechanical, requiring physical manipulation, I'm not sure how that happens.

On modern cars steering and brake force is applied by servos that are computer-controlled, as well as throttle and transmission. The driver's input is more or less taken as suggestions.

Automatic braking systems https://www.media.volvocars.com/us/en-us/media/pressreleases/154717/city-safety-by-volvo-cars-outstanding-crash-prevention-that-is-standard-in-the-all-new-xc90 and automatic steering to avoid accidents (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_avoidance_system) are fairly common.

This is hardly news...

A few years ago a normal Jeep was remote hacked allowing a computer to control steering, brakes and transmission wirelessly (https://securingtomorrow.mcafee.com/consumer/consumer-threat-notices/jeep-hacking-successful/).