[Proto-Traveller] Starship Design

[Mithras]

That depends on how you define battleship. And a 5KTd ship will NEVER be M6 under Bk2.

_ Maximum Hull Size by TL and Rating under Bk2
_ TL _ Drv ___ R1 ___ R2 ___ R3 ___ R4 ___ R5 ___ R6
__ 9 _ A-D __ 800 __ 400 __ 200 __ 200 __ 100 __ 100
_ 10 _ A-H _ 1000 __ 800 __ 400 __ 400 __ 200 __ 200
_ 11 _ A-K _ 2000 _ 1000 __ 600 __ 400 __ 400 __ 200
_ 12 _ A-N _ 2000 _ 1000 __ 800 __ 600 __ 400 __ 400
_ 13 _ A-Q _ 3000 _ 1000 _ 1000 __ 600 __ 600 __ 400
_ 14 _ A-U _ 3000 _ 1000 _ 1000 __ 800 __ 600 __ 600
_ 15 _ A-Z _ 5000 _ 5000 _ 4000 _ 3000 _ 2000 _ 2000

That's a very useful table there, Aramis. By the way, when you consider several 'standard designs' improbable, which ones did you have in mind?

A Battlecarrier with loads of fighters is gonna be SLOW under Bk2, and dominate not by direct combat, but by sending fighters out. Any direct combat warship will be outgunned by the fighter carriers.

Later I'll try and post my concept of a battleship or cruiser using Book 2, it certainly won't be 5,000 tons since, as you've identified, its drives will be comparable to a cruise liner

 

[Mithras]

This is what consider a top end military warship in a small Book 2 universe. As mentioned up-thread bigger isn't always better and big manoeuvre drives and high end computers are very important in space combat (and I use these in my own fast-play Book 2 space combat rules mod).

copyright Irvin L. Jackson

Strike Cruiser (type CS): Using a custom 2000-ton hull, the strike cruiser is intended as a long-distance strike craft with a powerful combat capability, supplemented by an onboard squadron of fighters. It has jump drive-Z, manoeuvre drive-Z and powerplant-Z, giving the ship performance of jump-6 and 6-G acceleration. Fuel tankage of 1260 tons supports the powerplant and allows one jump-6 (or a number of short range jumps). Adjacent to the bridge is Model/7 computer. There are forty staterooms and twenty low berths. There are twenty triple turrets installed, with fire control; eight mount beam lasers, eight mount missile racks and the remaining four mount defensive sandcasters. Both a ship’s boat and an air/raft are provided for general transport work. A 50-ton cutter is used by the onboard marine contingent. Normally fitted with a split cargo/troop transport open module, the cutter also has access to an ATV module. From this the 10-man marine squad can be deployed directly onto a world surface in their ATV. In addition, the battle carrier operates a squadron of eight 10-ton fighters with which it can project its force, or use a a defensive screen. Cargo capacity is 96 tons. The hull is streamlined to allow for gas giant refuelling operations.

The strike cruiser has a crew of 62: commander, executive officer, operations officer, logistics officer, steward, two pilots, two navigators, medical officer, nurse, tactical officer, twenty gunners, engineering officer, seven engineers, boat pilot, cutter pilot, cutter gunner, eight fighter pilots, marine commander and a squad of ten marines. In addition there are four staterooms set aside for non-commercial, mainly mission-related, passengers. Two of the engineers are trained to service the small craft. The tactical officer co-ordinates weapons and defences, whilst the operations officer co-ordinates the ship’s activities with those of any deployed craft and the marine contingent. The ship costs MCr 1160.50 and takes 36 months to build

 

[aramis]

Standard Designs and their TL's:
Type S (TL9)
Type A (TL9)
Type A2 (TL9)
Type R (TL9)
Type M (TL11)
Type Y (TL9)
Type L (TL 10)
Type K (TL9)
Type A2 (TL 9)

Dubious:
Type T - insufficient computer for role. Drop the cargo tonnage, and install a bigger computer to be able to use better combat programs
Type C - too small for "cruiser" at higher TL's, too slow for cruiser - more misused "as a cruiser"- simply called Cruiser in mayday - multi-role design stinks. At least it has sufficient computer program space with a model 5. In a cruiser role (rather than troopship) it should carry 6 fighters rather than 2 cutters and troops. Just poorly thought out.
Type M - Just enough armament to peeve pirates, not enough to deter. Can't make money unless subsidized (even then, it is iffy.)

 

[Mithras]

I agree with that, the type C should have been called a mercenary transport, or a mercenary assault ship. The type T is a conundrum. Cargo because the designers didn't know what to put inside it? You could call it 'customizable space' I suppose, for extra PP fuel or troops. Why a low computer, I can't think of an ingame reason for that.

Standard Designs and their TL's:
Type S (TL9)
Type A (TL9)
Type A2 (TL9)
Type R (TL9)
Type M (TL11)
Type Y (TL9)
Type L (TL 10)
Type K (TL9)
Type A2 (TL 9)

Dubious:
Type T - insufficient computer for role. Drop the cargo tonnage, and install a bigger computer to be able to use better combat programs
Type C - too small for "cruiser" at higher TL's, too slow for cruiser - more misused "as a cruiser"- simply called Cruiser in mayday - multi-role design stinks. At least it has sufficient computer program space with a model 5. In a cruiser role (rather than troopship) it should carry 6 fighters rather than 2 cutters and troops. Just poorly thought out.
Type M - Just enough armament to peeve pirates, not enough to deter. Can't make money unless subsidized (even then, it is iffy.)

 

[Jame]

I never noticed the Type T's computer error before...

Though this is why I prefer the MGT computers and sensors for this. Though I did do my own fan-edit of them for my own purposes.

 

[robject]

Standard Designs and their TL's:
Type S (TL9)
Type A (TL9)
Type A2 (TL9)
Type R (TL9)
Type M (TL11)
Type Y (TL9)
Type L (TL 10)
Type K (TL9)
Type A2 (TL 9)

It's bizarre, too. I always figured the Jump-2 ships should be TL10, and the Liner TL12.

 

[McPerth]

Standard Designs and their TL's:
Type S (TL9)
Type A (TL9)
Type A2 (TL9)
Type R (TL9)
Type M (TL11)
Type Y (TL9)
Type L (TL 10)
Type K (TL9)
Type A2 (TL 9)

While I agree about the components of those ships being those TLs, I've always seen jump capability to be also TL dependent (Jump1 at TL9, Jump2 at TL11, Jump3 at TL12, etc...).

Maybe I'm too tainted of HG or MT, but there are references of this in CT (e.g. AM6:Solomani, page 6 tells about the Solomani inventing J3, and so having advantage to the Vilani. I know AM6 was after HG, but the ships there presented are Bk2 designs...).

If so, table should be:

Type S (TL11)
Type A (TL9)
Type A2 (TL11)
Type R (TL9)
Type M (TL12)
Type Y (TL9)
Type L (TL 11)
Type K (TL11)
Type C (TL12)
Type T (TL12)

If this limitation is not on before HG (and so, not on in this Bk2 only ships), it would be possible to reach Jump3 at TL9, J4 at TL10, J5 at TL 11 And J6 at Tl12 and beyond (computer limits)

 

[Mithras]

Aren't we just looking at Book 3 and the TL introductions of the different jump drives? Or am I not getting it? I thought they were all listed there.

 

[Mithras]

I wouldn't call it an error, its by the book isn't it? Jump 3, Model 3 computer. But it is silly for a warship. Or, maybe they're converted ships of some other class? Yachts? They look like something from the Star Wars Republic...

I never noticed the Type T's computer error before...

 

[Jame]

I saw it. I always thougt that it was fine, but yeah, a military ship should have a better computer.

Just a silliness question ... what would a military's hip have? (military's hip = military ship!)

 

[robject]

My rationale: By the book, it's just a patrol ship. Not even a cruiser, really. Perfectly fine for managing traffic and scaring off a corsair.

As it gets beefed up, it starts to look more and more like the Fiery.

 

[aramis]

While I agree about the components of those ships being those TLs, I've always seen jump capability to be also TL dependent (Jump1 at TL9, Jump2 at TL11, Jump3 at TL12, etc...).

Maybe I'm too tainted of HG or MT, but there are references of this in CT (e.g. AM6:Solomani, page 6 tells about the Solomani inventing J3, and so having advantage to the Vilani. I know AM6 was after HG, but the ships there presented are Bk2 designs...).

If this limitation is not on before HG (and so, not on in this Bk2 only ships), it would be possible to reach Jump3 at TL9, J4 at TL10, J5 at TL 11 And J6 at Tl12 and beyond (computer limits)

Those AM's are ALL post-Bk5:HG...

And there was no direct association of TL with jump range until HG came out. A book 2 universe is VERY different.

There is an indirect association due to computers...
J1-J3 is TL9
J4 is TL 10 due to computer requirements
J5 is TL 11 due to computer requirements
J6 is TL 12 due to computer requirements

As for warships, TL 11+ should have at least a model 5.
You need the following slots
01 Target (Fire turrets)
01 Launch (Use Missiles and Sand)
02 Maneuver/evade 5 (ToBeHit DM-PilotSkill)
01 Predict 3 (ToHit DM+2) or Gunner Interact (ToHit DM+GunnerySkill)
01 Return Fire (Fire during other side's turn)
02 Antimissile (Fire at missiles)
03 ECM (Kill missiles on 2d6 for 7+)
== ==========
11 Total slots

The Model 5 has 12 slots active... the model 4 has only 8.
A model 4bis (from HG-'79) has 16 slots, and is also TL11... adding navig, generate, and upping to predict 5 (for a ToHit DM+3) and either Maneuver/Evade6 (ToBeHit DM-5) or Multi-Target-2.

Note that Pirates and Customs may want select-3 in slot #12, so they can pick drive compartment instead of main, and thus hit only drives (and if someone was frugal, fuel or even a crew stateroom or two...).

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Did I miss it or is there a max number of Gs per TL?

 

[aramis]

Did I miss it or is there a max number of Gs per TL?

Only in HG and later. In Bk2, it's limited by max drive size, but you can easily build a 6G 100Td system craft. You can't do a TL9 jump craft with even P4, tho...the 10Pn fuel requirement badly impinges... especially with the 20 ton bridge, leaving an M6/P6 large craft only 20 tons for drives and a stateroom.
An M4 P4 100 tonner can have some payload, but still, it won't be jumping.

And until TL 10, you can't get rating 6 on anything over 100Td.

At TL 10, you can eke out a J2 M6 200Td interception ship...

TL10 warship
200
_20 Bridge
_15 JD B=2
_11 MD F=6
_19 PP F=6
_60 Fuel PP
_40 Fuel 1J2
__2 2xTriple Turret
_28 7xSR (Crew: 7 PNMEEGG)
__4 Mod/4 (TL doesn't support Mod/5)
__1 Cargo

200 TL9 J3 M4 P4
_20 Bridge
_20 JD C=3
__7 MD D=4
_13 PP D=4
_40 Fuel PP
_60 Fuel 1J3
__2 2xTriple Turret
_28 7xSR (Crew: 7 PNMEEGG)
__3 Mod/3 (TL doesn't support Mod/5)
__7 Cargo

Both, however, have major disads vs later ships.

The heavy TL9 Warship, BTW, is a whopping 800Td J1/M1/P1 8xTripTurr
800 TL9
_20 Bridge
_25 JD D=1
__7 MD D=1
_13 PP D=1
_10 Fuel PP1
_80 Fuel 1j1
_28 7xSR (Crew 7 PNMEEGG)
__3 Mod3
400 40x 10Td Fighters
160 40xSR (Fighter Pilots)
_54 Additional payload (fighter fuel, missiles)
and it runs Auto-Evade (1), Maneuver (1), Target (1), Return Fire (1) and Launch (1) This badboy puts 126 weapons on 42 mounts out of 800 Td.

All due to the badly broken fuel formula for Bk 2 power plants.

 

[McPerth]

Those AM's are ALL post-Bk5:HG...

And there was no direct association of TL with jump range until HG came out. A book 2 universe is VERY different.

There is an indirect association due to computers...
J1-J3 is TL9
J4 is TL 10 due to computer requirements
J5 is TL 11 due to computer requirements
J6 is TL 12 due to computer requirements

Then it seems I was right: I'm too tainted by HG and posterior writings...

As for warships, TL 11+ should have at least a model 5.
You need the following slots
01 Target (Fire turrets)
01 Launch (Use Missiles and Sand)
02 Maneuver/evade 5 (ToBeHit DM-PilotSkill)
01 Predict 3 (ToHit DM+2) or Gunner Interact (ToHit DM+GunnerySkill)
01 Return Fire (Fire during other side's turn)
02 Antimissile (Fire at missiles)
03 ECM (Kill missiles on 2d6 for 7+)
== ==========
11 Total slots

The Model 5 has 12 slots active... the model 4 has only 8.
A model 4bis (from HG-'79) has 16 slots, and is also TL11... adding navig, generate, and upping to predict 5 (for a ToHit DM+3) and either Maneuver/Evade6 (ToBeHit DM-5) or Multi-Target-2.

Note that Pirates and Customs may want select-3 in slot #12, so they can pick drive compartment instead of main, and thus hit only drives (and if someone was frugal, fuel or even a crew stateroom or two...).

Just some questions here:

- Do the predict X or gunner interact programs apply its modifiers (or allow the gunners) for all the ship's weapons, for one turret/gunner or (for predict) for one target (if you have multi target)?

- Are predict X and gunner interact cumulative?

 

[aramis]

Then it seems I was right: I'm too tainted by HG and posterior writings...



Just some questions here:

- Do the predict X or gunner interact programs apply its modifiers (or allow the gunners) for all the ship's weapons, for one turret/gunner or (for predict) for one target (if you have multi target)?

- Are predict X and gunner interact cumulative?

As far as I know, the answer is yes to both.

Tho', given the wording of Gunner Interact, it could construed to be one turret only, but if going that route, Predict would need to be one target... it would be interesting to run it that way, but then a model 8/bis would be useful...

... because it's the first computer capable of running 50 points of software. (the 8 being 30/70 in 11Td for MCr110; the 8/bis being 60/0 11Td MCr220.)

Remember: without gunner interact, there's no difference between the farmboy you spent a few hours teaching how to man the gun (Gunner 0) and the Gunnery Master Chief with Gunnery-4.

 

[McPerth]

Tho', given the wording of Gunner Interact, it could construed to be one turret only, but if going that route, Predict would need to be one target... it would be interesting to run it that way, but then a model 8/bis would be useful...

We always played that way. Gunner interact was only for one gunner, and predict for one target (it was predicted for all the turrets). Maybe because of that we always thought the computers were too constraining...

Remember: without gunner interact, there's no difference between the farmboy you spent a few hours teaching how to man the gun (Gunner 0) and the Gunnery Master Chief with Gunnery-4.

True, but we always applied the -4 DM if the gunner was untrained, even if no gunner interact was used. So, without gunner interact, a good gunner might not help the weaponry, but a bad (untrained) gunner may always mess them.

 

[aramis]

Remember: Gunner 0 isn't untrained. It's "barely trained" but not untrained.

I really wish Marc had retained the "Level 1/2" notation instead of switching to level 0, but given the Int+Edu limit...

 

[McPerth]

Remember: Gunner 0 isn't untrained. It's "barely trained" but not untrained.

I know. That's why I told about the -4 for untrained gunners, I meant people without gunnery training at all. For gunners with skill level 0, it would be the same if gunner interact was on or off, but they wouldn't have the -4 for untrained.

Even so, you need someone to man the turret (unless auto-fire program is on), even if he's not trained and fires with that -4 DM (maybe his fire will scare a little the enemy ship, as it's unlikely it will hit anything).

BTW, same question as above about auto-fire: Does it allow all turrets to be fired by the computer or is needed for each turret so fired (like the fire control program in MGT)?

 

[Mithras]

My next attempt to create a Book 2 naval fleet using the parameters set out in this thread is the fighter carrier. This will spend alot of time protecting my next ship, the troop transport.

copyright Dethling

Fleet Carrier (type FC): Using a custom 3000-ton hull, the fleet carrier is a fighter transport and launch facility that can in addition act as a command and control centre for a naval flotilla. The carrier is a powerful force, its four squadrons of fighters able to project that force throughout a star system. It has jump drive-Z, manoeuvre drive-Z and powerplant-Z, giving the ship performance of jump-4 and 4-G acceleration. Fuel tankage of 1340 tons supports the powerplant for eight weeks, allows one jump-4 (or a number of short range jumps) and provides reserve fuel for four weeks for all of its small craft. Adjacent to the bridge is Model/6 computer and a Model/4 computer is held in reserve. There are two hundred and four staterooms and ten low berths. There are twenty triple turrets installed, with fire control; ten mount beam lasers, ten mount defensive sandcasters. Two armed ship’s boats are provided for general transport work. The power of the fleet cruiser comes from its thirty-two 10-ton fighters, organized into four squadrons. Cargo capacity is 100 tons. The hull is streamlined to allow for gas giant refuelling operations.
The fleet carrier has a crew of 200, including fighter pilots and crew for the ship’s boats, technicians to service the fighters and a full complement of sensor operatives and intelligence experts required to allow the ship to fulfil its command and control mission. Four staterooms are reserved for mission-related passengers. In addition, two squads of marines are carried, with a junior officer in command. The ship costs MCr 1726.63 and takes 34 months to build.
Most fleet carriers of the type illustrated are of the Victory class.