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Proto-Traveller

Originally posted by Aramis:

I'm kind of envisioning:
Code:
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| Zdt | Gvu | ??? | ??? | ??? | ??? |
|     |  G  |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| ??? | S M | Cor | Ley | M-A | ??? |
|     |  G  |     |  $  |  $  |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| ??? | ORV | S R | G R | C M | 2KW |
|     |  ?  |  G  |  $  |  $  |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| ??? |(Asl)| ??? | ??? | ??? | ??? |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
G indicates I'd use the GDW sector.
$ indicates my using the JG sector.
Is the $ area the Gateway Domain?


A couple of suggestions:

1-- Be sure to put Kamsii in the Core sector. (Did that world exist before SJG did their book o it?)

2-- Maybe Tobibak should go in there, too. (Also an SJG Planetary Survey book.)

3-- It'd be cool IMO to work in John G Wood's L'sis main stuff, too. (Just now out in the latest issue of JTAS.)
 
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4-- Add a rift*, running from coreward of Ley diagonally through Core and ORV, with Capital straddling the only passage through it. You may have to snip bits of the Marches and Solomani Rim sectors, but ah well.

5-- Set Core's archaic name as 'Vland', and put Vland (the world) in Core.


* To be an effective economic bottleneck, I'd suggest the Rift be 5-6 parsecs wide near Capital, with a couple of 'feeder/stepstone worlds' on either side. From Capital, the Rift would widen on either side, in order to maintain the importance of Capital even when it's far away. It should not be economically viable to make rift crossings in ORV or coreward from Ley.

Code:
      Core Proto-map (rough concept)
      * = 2118/Capital (appx)
      M = 3124/Mora (appx)
      V = 1717/Vland (appx)

      .................               
      ................          ......
      ..............          ........
      ............         ...........
      ...........      ...............
      ..........      ................
      .........      .................
      ..........      V...............
      ...........         ............
      .............        ...........
      ............... .. * ...........
      .................     ..........
      .............         ..........
    M ........           .............
      .......          ...............
      ....           .................
      ...          ...................
      .          .....................
                ......................
              ........................
             .........................
            ..........................
Putting Vland on the 'more civilized' side of Core adds a neat little bend in the rift.
 
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Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
rob, whatever happened to those maps you made of a smaller Imperiun - the ones where sectors were reduced to quadrants?
It just wasn't fun enough to stay with. A tailored Imperium is a better solution, rather than a randomly-sampled one. The major problem I found was when the Great Rift turned into a merely Annoying Rift which was somewhat crossable... but then if it's more an economic bottleneck, then a narrower rift isn't a problem.
 
Coupla questions:

What's going to happen to the "Claw?"

How do you deal with the discrepancy between the Rim and the Marches? Wouldn't the Rim have many more high pop/high TL worlds? (Maybe the recent wars on the Marches have interfered with development there?)
 
Originally posted by Jeffr0:
Coupla questions:

What's going to happen to the "Claw?"

How do you deal with the discrepancy between the Rim and the Marches? Wouldn't the Rim have many more high pop/high TL worlds? (Maybe the recent wars on the Marches have interfered with development there?)
Hey, you started this thread
I imagine the Claw goes away. (Aside: Looking at the maps, it seems almost as though the Claw and the rift in the Vargr extents might be vestiges of the original "Sandwiched Capital" idea... if the two rifts were brought closer together, and Capital or Vland were set betwixt.)

The Rim is an industrial and economic powerhouse. It would have to be 'dealt with'...
 
The claw could remain, you'd just find Capital at its tip.

I'd have the core worlds of the Imperium be much more developed - population and TL wise - than has been portrayed in the past.
I would also give the core worlds similar government codes since they are ruled more directly by the Imperium
 
BTW, if you make the new rift fully bisect the area, then having the Rim be so developed isn't a problem. This is because the "Vlad" side of the rift has been going and developing for a long, long time, whereas the "far" side is much newer.

The real question is whether Capital is on the "old" side of the rift or the "new" side ...
 
Jeffr0:

No, its not the area of the domain, per se. The current maps are not the ones I was suggesting. It is a domain sized area, but since domains were added with supp 8, they're outside the purview here, as is ALL SJG stuff...

I've never heard of the worlds you mentioned, and I don't do SJG stuff as a general rule... Except car wars...

What we're collectively trying to do is recreate the Imperium as it was portrayed before the "Big Shift", somewhere around 1984; Truly Old-school Small ship traveller... The shift begins in 1980 with the release of HG1 and bigger ships being available, as well as with the release of library data showing the OTU maps still in use to this date.... And SJG is firmly "BIG Imperium Model"

By squished canon, I was referring specifically to 3rd Party sectors in print besides the JG ones...

Y'see, the release of the Atlas was the BIG squish... it mapped out the entire 3I, and it really was HUGE.

Just for reference, the Imperium extends through about one third of each of two of those sectors, Ley and, and has a small tip in a third.

Anybody got a line on the data for the JG sectors in a machine readable format? I'd hate to have to retype it all (and my only OCR program is for music....)

Rob, I'd suggest moving that stray world core-by-core-spin of Sylea over to join the two mains closest to Vland... the early writeups say they had little reason to develop J2... It also provides too easy a bypass of sylea for running the gap...

And I think it could use a strip of one system deep off the spin edge...

A good start!

(Of course, you know, rob, now we're going to be obligated to start hand massaging the sector, too... :evil: )
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Wow! Great thread!
I agree.


Some thoughts:
<snip>
- Stealing a riff from D&D here. ;) Go with a 'chaotic neutral' Imperium. It's as good/evil, weak/strong, up/down, 1/0 as the man on the spot. As I've put it on the TML before; The Imperium is as good as it wants, as evil as it needs, as weak as it can get away with, and as strong as it must. Think 'realpolitik'.

- Give the Imperium an open frontier.
This is pretty much how I already view the Imperium. Hapsburg Tekumel in Space.
Realpolitik (link) definately fits that.

Definately agree on having an open frontier.
 
Dan Roseberry and I goofed around with the idea of a 'bisected' or 'rift' Imperium a couple of years back after discussing the old ADV:2 Library data entry. Dan sent me a scan of a hand drawn map and I countered with a MSPaint bitmap. Both are on a virus damaged hard drive that I don't know if I can ever repair. :(

What we didn't do is shrink the size of the Imperium into the 'proto' size here. That bit makes it all work.

My map had Sylea/Capital in a mid-rift cluster of ~6 worlds. Sylea/Capital was the 800lb gorilla of the cluster. (most worlds were airless rocks or planetoid belts with the exception of a Eden-type, high nobles only, pleasure estate world.) The Rift was wider than the 'Claw' and ran pretty much straight core-to-rim. The Sylea/Capital cluster was linked by a jump4 chain to either side.

Imperial territory on either side was in a rough hemisphere centered on the jump4 chain. The open frontier was to trailing(!), a roughly 2 sector wide strip between Hiver/Rim and K'Kree/Core space.

Spinward was the 'old' half of the Imperium. All the other players were there in there usual positions. Imperial territory there was ~2.5 sectors 'tall' at its widest (core-to-rim, with a full center sector and 3/4 of a sector past that 'above and below'). It was ~4 sectors 'wide' (spin-to-trail, with 3 full sectors running centrally from the the Rift to the Marches). The distance between Vland and Sol was ~1.75 sectors.

If you imagine the Spinward 'Hemisphere' or 'Cone' as a clock, the Vargr/Julians were between 10 and 12, the Sollies between 6 and 7, the Aslan at 8, and the Marches at 9 with the Zhos, Swordies, and Darrians all in contact there. A small rift like the OTU's Windhorn kept the Aslan away from the Marches in great numbers.

This map required some tweaks to OTU history. Everything up through the IW was normal; Yaskodray, the Ziru Sirka, the Confederation, etc. During the 2nd Imperium, the jump4 route was explored with the Capital/Sylea cluster and the trailing territories first settled. (The ZS with jump2 drives did risk it and a few Vilani colonies were set up like the OTU's Vanejen, but nothing major.)

The Long Night was different. The spinward 'half' of the 2nd Imperium fell while the smaller trailing portion 'kept the flame'. The scattered trailing colonies eventually 'grew up' enough to jell into a real imperium and fill all the territory between them. They then recontacted Capital/Sylea and began reintegrating the old imperial spinward territories beyond. Friction between 'vibrant' trailing and 'decadent' spinward began. Cleon came to prominence as the man who brokered an understanding between the two and the 3rd Imperium was founded to put the trailing claims of there still being a 2nd Imperium to rest.

With the impetus from trailing, spinward bounced back quickly, the 3rd Imperium expanded, fought the Pacification Campaigns, lost the Julian War, etc. Spinward moved into the Marches looking for a frontier like Trailing had and bumped into the Zhos, Swordies, and Darrians. The Frontier Wars resulted, Olav killed Jaqueline because he felt the Imperium wasn't supporting the Spinward wars enough, the Civil War kicked off, and Arbellatra - with Trailing support! - put an end to it.

The Imperium is 'bisected' geographically and politically. Spinward has been the most populated, most advanced (focus on continually settling their open frontier kept Trailing's tech progress slow), most wealthy but Trailing, especially the sectors closest to the jump4 route, is now approaching Spinward's 'heft'.

The Alkhalikoi's keep power with unwavering Trailing support and spotty Spinward support. Only the constant threat in the Marches (which is little more than a war ravaged, poorly colonized, armed camp), Vargr border, and Rim keeps Spinward in the Imperium. After losing a frontier to spinward, Spinward tried to muscle in on the operation of the Sollie Autonomous Region and kicked off the Rim War. The result for Spinward was another lost frontier and another enemy on their border!

The Imperium is trying to keep the lid on by sponsoring Spinward colonies in the Trailing Hemisphere. However, shipping megatons of low berths across the Rift is expensive and all the good real estate within more than a sectorof the jump4 route has been taken.

I left it at that. Trailing growing outward and growing tired of Spinward's shenanigans, Spinward hemmed in and hopping mad, and the Alkhalikoi trying to keep the lid on.


Have fun,
Bill
 
This is fun.

I've updated my map per Aramis' suggestion. I'm also uploading the PDF instead of a JPEG.

I didn't yet remove the spinward edge of systems. What range should go?

Now that you have access to the PDF, you can give me hex numbers...
 
There's one change I would suggest for Aramis's sector map of the proto Imperium - I think a "corridor" sector should still exist between the core worlds and the Spinward Marches.
 
So it would look a bit like this:


Code:
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| Zdt | Gvu | ??? | ??? | ??? | ??? |
|     |  G  |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| ??? | S M | Cor-| Cor | Ley | M-A |
|     |  G  |ridor|     |  $  |  $  |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| ??? | ORV |great| S R | G R | C M |
|     |  ?  |rift |  G  |  $  |  $  |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
| ??? |(Asl)| ??? | ??? | ??? | ??? |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
G indicates use of the GDW sector.
$ indicates using the QLI sector.
 
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Sigg:

Lets see about borders here...
The marches are about half Imperial.
Ley and the Reaches, also.
All of these are "Frontiers"
The Rim is about half imperial.

I don't see a need for a corridor to make the marches a frontier... just a need for the imperium to be split by a rift, ala the A2 data. Likewise, the Octogon society (Adv3) needs to be able to reasonably expand in a decade; their project is not one that would move terribly fast...

The Marches could be thought of as simly the furthest reaches.

Also, the small ship model, and the encounter tables, imply a LOT less travel than GT assumes; several orders of magnitude less.
 
I think that works a bit better, Sigg.

The other approach forces Core sector to try to do too many things at once.

Edit: Though aramis makes some good points, too. Good call on the octagon society
.


Here's a main I'm developing to maybe stick in one of the ??? sectors for my own campaign:

[CENSORED]

I'm thinking of using Malenfant's stellar tables to get the stars... then using First In to fill the rest of the orbits... then working out the social side of the UWP with a home-brew system. I have the surrounding star systems for 4 subsectors roughed out like this, but I'm not going to mess with them until I've got the main worked out.

Any suggestions/pointers before I plow through this?
 
Used GT:IW's system (and my own hacked out program.) It's sort of a First In Lite. (The Affinity value tells you how likely people are to inhabit the system and so forth.)

[Don't know if sharing this output violated the Playtest Secrecy Act or not. If so... someone please tell me!]
 
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